Scot Pollard is a former NBA center who played 11 seasons in the league after starring at the University of Kansas. He was drafted 19th overall in the 1997 NBA draft by the Detroit Pistons. He then went on to win an NBA Championship with the Boston Celtics in 2008. In 2024, he underwent a lifesaving heart transplant at Vanderbilt University Medical Center.
A journey later documented by ESPN's E60. I'm really excited to dive into this journey from California to Kansas to Detroit, winding up in Indianapolis, and then continuing to call Carmel, Indiana home. Scott, I'm excited to talk today. Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me on, Nate.
Okay. So this whole journey is a wild one.
If anyone have seen any parts of the, the ESPN's, like the, the documentary it's called
Heart of Pearl.
Yeah, Heart of Pearl. This like the ending, not even the ending, but like the most recent part of the story is an incredible part and I'm really excited to dive into that. But the beginning of the story is also incredible as well.
It, this starts in a beach town in California in a very affluent area. But you didn't grow up in a, a life of, of wealth. Talk to me about growing up, out on the West Coast.
So, I was born in Utah and I was raised there for elementary school. I went to four different elementary schools. 'cause my dad lost everything when I was little.
He, he was very, very successful asphalt paving company, like the second or third biggest company in Utah at the time. And then he lost everything. there's conspiracy theories about that. my two oldest brothers. My dad went to University of Utah. My two oldest brothers chose BYU, and suddenly my dad started getting contracts canceled and lost his whole business.
So I don't know if they two were intertwined, but it was very closely after my brothers decided to go to BYU and not Utah. so anyway,
there's a whole side episode we could get rid.
Yeah,
yeah.
So we were, we, we, we immediately became poor and we moved a lot. I went to four different elementary schools., we just, we rented and my dad did what he could. And somehow the decision was, Hey, we're moving to either Phoenix or Del Mar. I don't know how this poor family that, you know, my dad still, we, my mom and dad still had,, myself and one brother still at home of six kids. I was the youngest and there was two of us left in home.
Everybody else had moved on at this point. We moved to Del Mar, California, one of the most expensive places, if not the most expensive place in the world to live. We rented and my dad was unemployed for nine months or so, we were on government assistance.,
how old were you at this time?
Seventh grade.
You're seven, which is like a formative time.
Yeah.
You think about like when, I don't know, brands start to matter what you're wearing, like you know what you're doing.
Yeah. And, and my whole family's Mormon and the church helped us out quite a bit. We would, we would get food delivered a lot. And to this day, I, refuse to eat lasagna.
My wife's half Italian. She makes incredible lasagna and I hate it. I, I won't eat it because I'm scarred because I, that was associated with my childhood of like. People bringing us food. And I, hate getting stuff, I hate,
being the receiver of gifts because of that.
It's like between, you know, that, that aspect or like when there's like a death in your family and people think that like pie and desserts, cure, cancer, whatever it might be.
And it's like, I just, from those days, like people show up and it's like, here's a pie, here's cookies, here's, and it's like, oh gosh, I can have food for the next like six months. You know?
Yeah. And you have to remember, it's a thought that counts.
Yeah, absolutely.
But yeah, so yeah, we just, we, bounced around in San Diego or Del Mar., ended up at Torrey Pines High School.
How did being different, how, like you think about Torrey Pines High School, this is a, you talk about people driving insane, exotic cars to high school.
Yeah.
And at that time, and, you know, you guys are still like government assistance, not the most wealthy.
Yeah.
You know, how was that shaping?
Was it building a chip on your shoulder?
Absolutely. Especially after my dad died, when I was 16.
Yeah., I, my mom left and went to go to Washington State to go live with my oldest brother. 'cause we didn't have anything left to pay rent. Like my dad died and he was working when he died.
What did he pass away from?
the same thing I ended up getting diagnosed with.
No way.
Yeah. So,, we, he, he finally, we got him to go to the doctor in 1990., late or late 1990. He kept getting pneumonia and the doctor pulled him in. He goes, look, I'm surprised you drove here. Like, how, I don't even know how you're awake. his heart was really bad.
Yeah.
his EF was like 12. What's
ef
It's your ejection fraction percentage. A normal sized human should be 60 to 65, maybe a little above that. No one's a hundred. He was
12.
His was 12., and he was 6'9 380 pounds. And part of that probably is water retention because his heart, heart wasn't pumping., but anyway, he gets diagnosed and the doctor's like, look, transplant's not an option.
In, in 1990 1991 your donor had to be exactly your size. Well, he joked we could go down to the San Diego Zoo and get a gorilla, but, you know, I don't, I don't know of anything else,
6 9 3
380: 380
Yeah That was my dad.,
I mean, he could have had a career of like playing for the, like for the Chargers at that point.
Yeah.
Well, he played basketball for a long time. He played at University of Utah, then he played semipro for a while., and he's a legend. He's in the state of Utah Hall of Fame.
Yeah., and so they talk about that in the, the documentary Heart of Pearl. They, they did a deep dive on him. he's a legend.
Everybody knew who my dad was in Utah, and maybe that's why he said it was just time to go.
Yeah.
because of the downfall of his business. And I, I, yeah. I don't know. I was a little kid,
so. Yeah. And if, if you, you know, you build something and you started to see that fall from Grace and you've been a legend in this space.
It's like getting a fresh start can be good for the mentals a little bit there.
Yeah.
And so you're 16. And
he
dies. My mom leaves. And so I, don't say homeless, but I was, I was living with friends. I would just go, whoever could take me in for a while. That was my junior year of high school.
And at that point, were you,, an excellent basketball player?
Oh yeah. I was getting recruited already by everybody. I got my first recruiting letter in seventh grade back when they used to send actual snail mail letters.
Who was the first one? From
Jim Boeheim Syracuse.
Oh, no, way you were seventh grade And it's not like a form letter.
No, It was, Scot we're interested in, you know, we're gonna be whatever.
nowadays it's like you get all these like camp and like, you know.
come to my AAU team and we'll pay you and all that stuff,
stuff. This was the Syracuse Jim Boeheim Jim be from Syracuse. Sends you as a seventh grader.
Mm-hmm. Now I, gotta take partial credit 'cause I was 6 2 at the time.
But again, I'm from, I'm the youngest of six five of, I have four brothers and one sister. my oldest brother is the shortest. He's only 6'9 And he was really good., your oldest brother's, the shoe, these chairs might make us look evil. Okay, so wait, what, what was the roster height?
6, 9, 7 3. My sister's 6 2 7 foot. 7 foot. And I'm 6 11. And people always say like, what, you're so close to seven foot, why don't you just round up? Because my brothers used to kick the shit outta me when I rounded up. So you
had a seven three brother?
Yeah. Yeah. We're giants, all of us. My mom's six two, my dad was six nine, like I said.
Yeah, my sister's six two, so we was going to be big.
Did, did your other siblings play?
All of 'em played division one. My sister, turned down Division one basketball and volleyball offers, because she How was your
sister?
Six two. And yeah, she could play, but she just had ankles and bad feet and she was just like, I don't wanna get surgery.
I'm just done. Yeah. And so she didn't choose to play, but she could have played division
one. So this is okay. This is good. Uh. When you think about the potential for the conspiracy theory, it wasn't just to like attend BYU, it was to play at BYU.
Oh yeah. Oh,
that's a, that's
a deep rival. Yeah. 'cause my dad was a legend of the University of Utah basketball.
Yeah. And then his two big, giant sons choose BYU and not Utah. Yeah. So that kind of leans into it that Okay. That has you And then it kind of directs the rest of the brothers. The boys. 'cause there was five of us. That's a big loss.
I mean, that's like
to the University of Utah.
And what's the age gap between all of you?, they are all a year apart. They were born from 63 to, 70. Yeah. And then I was born in 75.
Okay. Something
like that. Six, nine.
You're talking about a decade worth of setters though. Yeah. You know, you've got, you've got your big men for a, a Yeah. A decade there, which
is why, like, there's a, there's a pile of giants and, so speaking of conspiracy theories, I'm pretty sure that's how we ended up at Torrey Pines High School.
My high school basketball coach, John Ferrell, at the time, was running the biggest high school basketball tournament in the country in Las Vegas. He's from New York. He gets kicked outta New York for bending rules.
Yep.
And he's in Las Vegas where you can go and bend the rules and nobody really looks too hard at you.
Yeah. And so he was affiliated with Nike pretty close. Sonny Vaccaro was a big deal. I, I heard that name a lot.
Yeah.
And,, we always wore Nike's. Yeah. So, there was some connection there with Nike, and I think that he possibly promised my dad a job. If we moved there, because again, I had one brother still in the house.
He was gonna be a senior in high school and he was a seven footer. And then me coming in at seventh grade at six two, assuming I'm gonna be another giant. So this, I think this high school coach tried to help us out a little bit, and there might've been some other people, in the church saying, Hey, yeah, he's got a good basketball program.
Why don't you come live here and we'll help you out. I don't know who got my dad a job, but nobody did for a while.
Yeah, right. You said you was unemployed for nine months?
Yeah, for a while. And, so anyway, yeah, the after he passed,, I lost my mind. I quit basketball for two weeks and I went completely insane.
And then I was like, yeah, I need to do this. And so that's when I, I really fell in love with basketball. I always, you know, I was a beach kid. I loved being in the water. I, I tried surfing. I wasn't very good at it, but I'd surf once in a while. And, body Surf and Bo Boogie board and all that stuff. and I played beach volleyball.
I was actually really good at volleyball. I got recruited to play volleyball as well.
Oh, I can definitely see that. I mean,
San Diego, it's a, it's an indoor sport in high school. Oh yeah. And so I was playing six man, I played beach on the summer and six man in the spring. I was player of the year in, in San Diego for volleyball and basketball.
I think I was the first player to ever do that. And,, got recruited. Like I said, there was like UCLA really wanted me to play basketball. And they're like, we'll even let you play volleyball here. If you come here. So like, they wanted me to play both and, yeah.
And where, where did you realize along this journey that you, like one, you have the height, which is, you know, you're gonna get letters for that, but where did you realize that you were, a real factor and that basketball could be a career for you?
Not until my senior year of college.
Oh wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, it was a thought. Yeah, it was a dream. It was a hope, but it wasn't realistic to me until, was senior year of college. 'cause I went, I, I got recruited by everybody. I told everybody on the East coast, like Mike Krzyzewski, I was like, I, I don't even know where Duke is.
I'm sorry I'm not coming all the way there. I didn't want to go east of the Mississippi. I just told everybody on the East coast, North Carolina, Jim Boeheim, everybody. I was just like, thank you a lot, but I'm not, I don't know where you are.
Was there a lot of stress, a lot of pressure there? I mean, you talk about being.
almost like an object that people want.
Yeah.
And that they're like, you know, seeking you, you're seventh grade, you're getting letters from division one basketball coaches and like going through your own. I mean, when I was in, you know, in high school, I would not have the mental fortitude to like process through like where I'm gonna spend the next four years and all of the, I wouldn't say repercussions of those decisions.
Luckily my dad was a college athlete and all four of my brothers Yeah. Had been through it and all four of my brothers ended up transferring. They, like I said, they're Mormon. They went on their missions, they'd come home and their coach was fired or left for a better job. So they all ended up transferring.
'cause the new coach is like, I didn't recruit you. I don't want you. And so I learned from that and that helped. My dad was still alive obviously until I was, beginning of my junior year, followed my junior year. And so I had his guidance as well. How does
that process work? Because your brothers go to BYU, they have to go on their mission.
Is that two years?
back then it was 18 months.
18 months. So is it after high school?
One of them Redshirted his freshman year and then he went on his mission. The next one I think went on his mission. So he was gone when the other one got back. The older one got back and then the coach was fired.
Yeah.
So he transferred you usc
so they wouldn't have even ended up in at the school like able to play until they were like 20
some. Yeah. Sometimes. That's why BYU football team has always been good because bit now the battle is, it's leveling out because you guys got got guys like TI that are like, oh, that's the formula.
24 year olds beat. 20 year olds mean let me pay the 24 year olds to come from that college over to mine. Yeah. And whereas B'S had that formula for a long time, they get 18 year olds and they come back at 20 and you got offensive linemen that are ready to play as freshmen.
Yeah. So you have 18 year olds, they come back at 20, then they get a red shirt.
You could have a red shirt year then.
Yeah.
And then you have four years with that.
Exactly.
So yeah. By the, what It's like the taste of, is it Taste of Hill? Who was like the, oh, like the 26-year-old quarterbacks, you know, there's so
many of them. My son was at Marian playing football last fall, and he had a teammates 26 and he's got another year of eligibility.
He's gonna come back next year, I think, to ion he's gonna be 27.
That's incredible.
But yeah, I mean, more power to 'em. I, I'd still be in college if they were paying me the, what they're paying kids nowadays.
Amen. Well, so you end up settling on Kansas Yes. As where you want to go to school. Take me through like the final, like, I feel like everyone has that day.
It's like. You know, there's three hats on the table. Mm-hmm. And you're deciding like, where I'm gonna take my talents. And you decide being on the west coast. Yeah. Being a beach guy that likes to bodyboard and, and boogie board and surf and play
volleyball. My prom date in high school was going to UCLA.
Her dad loved me and he was like, go to UCLA. He wanted me to come live with him, you know, when I was kind of ho quote unquote homeless. And I was like, I don't think that's a good idea. Being in the same house as a girl that I was, you know, I had a crush on., so I didn't live with them at all. But,, UCLA was hard after me, and I just didn't like their head coach.
Arizona was really hard after me, and I was like, that's the next closest. Like San Diego State wasn't good enough. Yeah. You know, I was like, I'm too good for that. I need to go somewhere big time. And UCLA, I really, really wanted to go to UCLA, but they took me to a party on my trip and I was like, no, you, you messed up.
They didn't know, this isn't my scene. Yeah,
yeah. They didn't know, like,
I don't drink. Yeah. You know, at this point I don't drink, I don't smoke weed. And, and you know, they took him to a party where all that was happening and I was just like, I'm not trying to hook up with anybody here. You know, I don't know anybody here.
I'm not trying to do this. Yeah. So they just missed the boat on that. But also I just didn't like the head coach. Yeah. I, I didn't wanna listen to that guy. Took my trip to Arizona, one of my high school. He wasn't a teammate of mine in high school, but he was from my high school. He was my host in Arizona.
They took me to a party and I was like, oh, this is my scene. There was a lot of tall girls with long black hair.
No, there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I was like, I'm coming here. I love Lute Olson. He was the coach then, great man. And, went over to his house and his wife made breakfast, which is kind of a common thing back then.
and I told him, I'm coming here, LT, I'm, thank you. Like, I'm, this is it. I'm, I'm here. Because I loved the way he coached. I loved his personality. He was like a father figure. And I needed that in my life. At this point, I'm 16, 17 years old at this point, and I need this. And so I committed verbally. I was like, I'm coming to Arizona, and I was closest to home and I was like, yes, you know, five hour drive, I can get on the I eight and get from San Diego to Arizona and live in Tucson and be good.
And then I took my trip to Kansas and, Roy. Roy was my favorite. The whole time. But it was Kansas. I didn't want to go that far away. I didn't know where Kansas was. I didn't know where Lauren, I didn't know anything about the Jayhawks. I didn't know anything about the Crimson and blue and how the colors are from Harvard and Yale and how Lawrence was founded and, and the Kansas state of Territory of Kansas was founded as a free state to block the spread of slavery westward.
I didn't know any of this stuff.
Yeah,
I learned this all at Kansas and then post years, you know, but,, I didn't care about any of that either. But I, you know, being in San Diego, basketball's not a huge sport 'cause everybody's outside. It's pleasant. It's room temperature year round in San Diego, so nobody goes inside to watch basketball.
Everybody's like outside if there's beach volleyball going on and they're gonna watch that, not basketball. Even if the team's really good. They took me out for late night, which back then it was the first practice of the year. Everybody does like, you know, midnight madness or whatever. it was actually at midnight and I'd never heard of this thing before.
I'd never seen anything like this before. I walk in, there's 17,000 people there at midnight. It's just loud. I've never seen 17,000 people in a building before. Because again, it's San Diego, nobody's inside. I've never seen this many people in one place. And it's midnight and it's for a practice. And all of a sudden hundreds of people start chanting my name.
Not thousands, but hundreds of people knew who I was. 'cause they, you know, they bring the recruits into impress 'em. It worked.
No way. You walk out there and they're like, oh yeah, there's that.
There's
that. Like Scot Pollard.
And then they chant the next guy's name, you know. So they, I'd be like, told to that I'd like, where do I
sign right now?
Yeah. Like, come on. And so Coach Williams, you know whether this is true or not, he told me he wasn't eating dessert 'cause he is a dessert guy. Until I decided where I was gonna school and I had one of the ball boys, 'cause I didn't have any money. And I was like, Hey man, can you go get a German chocolate cake?
'cause that's Roy Williams' favorite dessert. And he went and got him. And I was like, here coach. He goes, well, you know, I can't eat this. Until you decide. I said, well, that's what this mean, coach, you're, I'm coming here
and you give him dessert. And
he say, and he ate the whole cake.
What? Okay, now here's a question.
Was it a hard conversation with Eric? With Lute? Yeah.
Yeah. I called Lou. I said, Lou, I'm so sorry., you know, I just, I, I feel like Kansas is a better fit for me. and he just said, I co I certainly understand. we're gonna miss you. Good luck to you. I mean, he was very classy about it. That's Lou, you know, I think he wanted me really bad, because they, they needed a big,
well, I think that takes a lot of, like, you think about being a high school senior and to pick up the phone and call the guy that you did to say that you wanted to come there until you obviously got brought into your horizons a little bit.
I think to pick up the phone, like building relationships like that is important. And like the way you go about whatever, it's like, especially today, you think of like the transfer portal and people are in, people are out. People are saying, I'm doing this and I'm getting paid a million here. What can you do for me?
And I don't know, just like committing to go somewhere and then. Having to call back your, your previous, you know, coach and say, Hey, this is what's going on. Wish you the best. They wish you the best. I think that's, that's a hard conversation to have as a senior.
It was, and I was actually, a junior, when that happened.
Oh
yeah., it was, it was, you know, I just lost my dad and I'm trying to make all these major decisions and I'm like deciding if I even want to play basketball because I'm so heartbroken.
How were you getting to these places?
They fly you out.
So they, it was official visits. Was it just you or like, did you have someone go with you?
Just me. my mom was, on crutches and stuff and I was just like, mom, I'm going alone. I was, my mom and I, there was some tension between us at the, at this time, we, and it that common. I was like, I'm going out.
If you thought of like the other, the other top, you know, college recruits across the country are their parents or they, they have, they probably have someone going with them on these trips,
so I just.
I took my son through the transfer portal. Yeah. just in January of this year. And every single player we went with, like they were juniors and seniors and they all had a parent with him. And we were with Ozzy 'cause he's 18, you know, he's just turned 18 in August and he still should be a senior in high school.
Technically. He's got teammates at Carmel High that are older than him and they're still at Carmel High. So,, you know, we felt like he didn't need us, but he wanted us there because he wanted to, to process it and bounce the ideas off of us. So we went with him to, all, I went with him to all the trips.
And then the last one we went to, we were pretty sure he was gonna commit. So we went with, my wife, went with us.
Where'd he transfer from?
He transferred from Marian to Hawaii.
I mean, what that, how did he wait, how did you end up at Marian and
then, so he was getting recruited by a lot of big schools and then,, his.
Third game of his senior year, he ruptured his ACL Oh. And they were still after him, like Power four schools still calling, saying, Hey, we don't care about the knee. We know that happens. You're gonna be fine. The one of the cold surgeons did his knee at Forte. They were awesome. It just, just an incredible experience.
And he worked his butt off. But even after the surgery, they're still interested. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, we checked your overall GPA Oh. And so,, he learned a quick lesson and to, to credit him though for understanding that, but also the maturity of admitting it. But even more than that, I will give him that his sophomore year of high school, there were some very serious social problems going on in his life.
Yeah.
That weren't his doing, but we had to deal with it. Yeah., there were very, very severe. Problems and, and, a lot of things going around school about him that weren't true.
Yeah.
And so he was very distracted his sophomore year, junior year, his dad's in and outta the hospital and getting a heart transplant, so not really paying attention to his grades.
We were in Vanderbilt one time. He came down to visit and he goes, I'm not leaving. I was like, dude, you have a life. You're playing. You're throwing in track and field. You're one of the state qualifiers. Get your butt back to Indiana. Yeah, I'll be, I'll be fine. And so sophomore and junior year that, well, that was the bulk of his GPA and his fall of his senior year.
Three four, spring of his senior year. Three, one. Fall at Marian 3.5. It's
like the opposite of senioritis.
Yeah. You
know, middle itis.
Yeah. But he also, he got the message you, he realized, oh man, I made a bad mistake thinking that okay, these personal problems are good enough reason not to pay attention. And so he's got it now.
He's great. He's, in fact, he's doing so well at school. They get only get one week off for spring break, but he's gonna leave for two. 'cause football's off for two weeks.
Yeah.
So he's taking his finals early and he's gonna be home next week for two weeks. Almost
that Did he get time at Marian in the fall?
Oh yeah. A lot. He made second team all conference.
Yeah. I was gonna say, that has to be a huge pickup for
Marian. They're like,
let's go.
And it's like,
oh, I wish we could've like, but it's like going to Hawaii. That's Rainbow Warriors.
Yeah. And he needed it. He needed the snaps, to, to for his own self. Like again, he could have still gone division one, but they probably would've sat him his freshman year and, and probably redshirted him and he'd be in the same situation right now, not knowing if that knee was good.
Yeah.
Now he knows, 'cause he got snaps at Marian and so it worked out well. He worked on his GPA, worked on his body and a lot of teams won and we went through it. The transfer portal is nuts. He doesn't ever wanna do it again. He's like, I'm staying at Hawaii forever. I was like, I love your loyalty, but, we gotta see, 'cause if you do, well the, the dollars and cents matter, you know, it's football.
Your career might be over next week. He already knows this. Yeah. Because he's done it, you know, he's done that EC that
is like, the, like, loyalty is so great and like such a great quality to have, but it's also a business.
Yeah. And, and he's a businessman now. Yeah. You know, he's stacking money and we're trying to make him get some investments.
I got a financial advisor for him
that's sick.
and so he's, he's going to, you know, we're trying to set him up to be wealthy before he is 25.
Amen. I love that, that story. Well, so talk about your journey then. You know, you're, this is a different time period. You're at Kansas, you're at, you know, midnight madness.
Things are going wild. 17,000 people.
Yeah.
Then in the, in the fall after your senior year. You show up in Lawrence and you're like, where the heck in the world? Am I? Yeah. Like how do you start to build community and find home in Kansas?
I was just lucky that Jacque Vaughn, who's from La Pasadena, he and I played in some all star games together and we didn't decide to go to Kansas as a package deal, but we kind of decided to go to Kansas as a package deal because we played well together and I liked him and he liked me.
So we ended up rooming together all four years. And Jacque was a lottery, or not a lottery pick. He was the first round pick my same year in 1997. He was picked to be a lottery pick after our junior year, but he chose to come back and play his senior year, fall of his senior year. He breaks his wrist and missed the first part of the season and we're, we're picked to win it all that year.
and we were undefeated all the way through his injury and his Reba rebound. And then, towards the end of the season, I get hurt and we lose one game while I'm out and then we go in the finals or the Sweet 16 and we lose two Arizona.
What on the, in the handshake line after the game was there? Like was there eyes, was there?
Oh yeah. I was like, man, I should have come here. L jokingly. 'cause I knew I didn't and he knew I shouldn't have, like Kansas was the right place for me, but I, I jokingly was like, ah, I should have come here. And he is like, ha ha. I was like,
congrat, they, how far did they end up making it?
They want it all.
Yeah,
sometimes it'd
be like that. My sophomore year, I think it was my sophomore year, 95 UCLA won it all. So I had the choice to go to two different colleges and maybe be an NCAA champion, but, oh well,
but oh well. But, but again, the basketball court culture is crazy in Kansas. I mean, similar to Indiana.
You know,
I don't want to hurt Hosiers feelings, but it's nothing like Indiana.
Oh, wow.
in fact, this is an Indiana story. Yeah. My freshman year, Jack and I are roommates and I'm not starting because there's a senior at the four spot and there's Greg Ostertag at the five spot. And so I'm coming off the bench spelling these guys.
And, one of them was in foul trouble, so I played a lot in that game and it was, versus Indiana preseason game in Lawrence, Kansas places nuts. And Damon Bailey is just giving us the business. He ended up with 33 points that night and I bust somebody's face open and they bleed all over me. They couldn't get the blood outta my jersey.
So I'm wearing a backup jersey at the end of the game. Number 54, not number 31. I'm wearing number 54 with no name on the back. Go out to set a screen for Jacque. The play is set up for me to go set a screen for Jacque and he's gonna drive and dish it to me, or, you know, make a move somehow. I go and set the screen, he kind of blows it off.
So I go set another one and he uses it, but then he comes back over to the right side and pops a three at the buzzer. Now I'm wide open underneath the basket. I'm like, gimme the ball. And he just pops the three. And so I turn around, I go to box out, and it just goes in and it's game. We win against Indiana at home.
That's not really the story about how crazy Kansas basketball is. It was nuts in there. Don't get me wrong, it was the loudest thing I'd ever heard in my life at this point. But we got back to our apartment, which is on the fourth floor of a building that you have to have a key code to get in or a pa, a key fob to get in.
And we're on the fourth floor. Our door is decorated. With different numbers and, and cards. And balloons. It was like, Jacque, you're the man. It just, like our door is covered with like scotch tape, like people have tape messages to our door and we looked at it. It was like, this isn't Southern California.
Yeah, that's.
Like, like that was
welcome to Kansas basketball.
Maybe, maybe a couple like college, you know, they leave their phone number like, Hey, take me out on Friday. You
know? Yeah. I think that happened a, a bunch.
Yeah. Maybe a couple times. Right?
Maybe once or once or twice.
When you thought about staying, you know, your time a as a college athlete, like it is different today.
Mm-hmm. Was the thought, like, okay, you, you pick your place and you stay there. Like, transferring is not a thing. Like the financial incentives, like how were you thinking about it then versus how it goes today?
Well, there were no fin financial incentives. I mean, I'm on the video games, I'm watching, it's number 31 at Kansas with blonde sideburns and blonde hair, but no name, so it's not me.
Yeah. I'm like, and I didn't get any money for that, so there were no financial incentives. But,, you know, like I said, my brothers all transferred. They all went to one school and ended up transferring to another school. So I, my decision, was for Roy Williams because I made Roy promise me that he wasn't gonna leave from North Carolina while I was there.
Oh,
and I said, Roy, 'cause all my brothers transferred. I said, I'm trusting you with being the father that I need the father figure that I need in my life right now. But you can't leave me. Because back then you couldn't transfer. You'd lose a year of eligibility or you had to sit out a year, which again, they don't have now.
So I didn't want that to happen to me 'cause that was what happened to my brothers and it, it spiraled their careers outta control. And so I didn't want that. I wanted to go one place and stay there. Leaving early wasn't a thought in my head because it didn't happen. Even Paul Pierce went three years, you know, at Kansas.
Yeah. So, you know, Raef LaFrentz went four years. Lottery picks both of them. And so it was just a different time.
Yeah.
And so I did not want to transfer. Never thought about transferring. In fact, I made Coach Williams promise me that he wasn't gonna leave so I wouldn't have to transfer. So I knew that that was on my spot.
And I didn't even start my first two years. I knew, I knew I wasn't gonna start. He told me, he is like, I'm not gonna promise you a starting spot. And my, after my freshman year, he. He said, look, you've earned a starting spot. The senior graduated that was at the four spot, but Raef LaFrentz was coming in. He goes, Raef LaFrentz, he's better than you.
Roy told me that. And he goes, so he's gonna start. But he goes, here's the thing, I got Greg Ostertag. He's gonna be a senior, and the NBA's looking at him. And I only get something outta Greg Ostertag every other Tuesday. If I don't start him, I won't get anything outta him at all. And the kid has a chance to be an NBA player and I'm not gonna take that away from him.
So what's gonna happen is he's gonna start every game, but you're going to average more minutes. And I did, my sophomore year I came off the bench and whenever Ray was tired, I went in and played. Whenever Greg was tired, I went in and played. So I ended up averaging more minutes than Greg Ostertag my sophomore year, but I came off the bench for two years.
You wind up, you becoming a first round pick, I think what, 19th overall?
19th pick. Yep.
Like, talk to me about, you said the, the, the mindset shifted sometime during your senior year mm-hmm. That you could make a career out of this.
Well, like I said, I played with Greg Ostertag, who was an NBA talent. There was a lot of other players, that, that were in my four years that were NBA players.
at some point, even if it was just a tryout for a while or, or you know, one year. and I'm playing with Raef LaFrentz who ended up being a lottery pick. And Paul Pierce, who was a lottery pick, Jacque Vaughn, who was predicted to be a lottery pick after our junior year. So there were always college scouts there.
If they weren't there for me. And then partway through my senior year, you know, I'm talking to Roy before a game and he's like, yeah, there's a lot of scouts here tonight. I said, cool, good for Paul, you know? And he goes, no, son, they're here for you. And I was like, oh, that's new. And so that's when it really started becoming a thought that I was gonna make it to the NBA.
'cause it was always the goal, but I never had any feedback that it was actually going to possibly happen. And, I was predicted, projected late first round, early second round. And then they invited me out on the workouts. And it was everybody in the twenties. There was 28 teams at the time, Chicago just beat Utah.
And I told Utah, I'm not coming to work out for you. And the GM was like, wait, what? Jerry loves you. Jerry Sloan the coach at the time, and he goes, Jerry loves you. We love you. You're, you were born here, your whole family's here. Like why wouldn't you? And I said, that's exactly why. 'cause I know me. I could fill the stadium with family for 41 home games and still piss people off.
I can't handle that in my personal life. I won't be able to focus on basketball. I'm gonna have people pulling at me for tickets for every single home game my entire time. I was like, I'm sorry. You're right. I would love to play for Jerry Sloan, but I'm not coming to Utah. Sorry. So that was the only team in the twenties that I didn't work out for.
But Detroit had the first pick of the second round and that's why they were working me out. They also had the 19th pick and every team I worked out for said they were taking me if I was available.
What does a workout look like for a team? Like what are you
doing? I went in there and you, there's other guys in your position and you work out against 'em.
You lift weights, you do some jumping exercises, you know, they do check your vertical and your reach, your height, your weight, all that stuff. You know, just to make sure. And they give you a physical, make sure you're healthy. They check out your medical history, what bones have you broken, if you've ruptured anything, all that kinda stuff.
And, you know, they checked my shoulder 'cause I'd had shoulder surgery in college and, uh. Just, and then you hoop and, yeah, I, I hooped
and he
hooped.
I had, I had one guy quit. I was in Atlanta and he ended up getting picked after me. but we were in Atlanta and he just said, f this, I don't wanna play in this city anyway.
And he walked out of the workout
No way, because
I was just busting his ass.
Let's go, let's hype.
But
that's gotta feel good.
Well, it did. And, and the proof though was that Detroit was scared that I wasn't gonna be there in the second round. Nah, I wasn't. Yeah. So they picked me at 19 at instead of at,
where were you at on draft night?
Las Vegas because the draft, you know, it was in New York and they only, like, they, they kind of invited you, but it wasn't really like on national tv. It wasn't the spectacle that it is now. Yeah, it was a spectacle for the in person, but it wasn't like on national TV or anything. It was just like, Hey, you know, if you got the right channel you could watch it.
And you know, I was again predicted to be. Early second round, I'm like, I'm not gonna go sit there and wait for an hour and a half and maybe hear my name. I'll just be in Vegas. And, we're watching in a sports book because that's the only place we could get it on tv. And so we're in a sports book.
There's TVs everywhere, but there's one little one in front of us that's showing the draft. And so we're just watching that one. And all of a sudden they start, because I'm like, why hasn't Jacque been picked? Jacque was supposed to be a lottery pick after our junior year. I'm like, I'm getting in a fight with who I was with.
Is he
with you or no?
He's not with me. No. Okay. And so we're, I'm like, why hasn't he been picked? And they start showing Kansas clips and I was like, finally, finally. Good job Detroit. And then they keep showing me and I'm like, 'cause there's no sound. And so I'm like. and then my phone rings and like one of the, like the old brick, like Motorola, you're like, you know, yes, probably antenna up.
I'm like, hello? And they're like, this is, the secretary for the GM of the Detroit Pistons. We just picked you in the first round 19th pick. I was like, oh, that's what that was. So that's how I found out. I had no idea that I was going that high. And, all of a sudden they, the, you know, the staff comes over, you can't have a phone in the sports book.
So they were like, you gotta get outta here now. And I'm on the phone. They're like, we need to fly you out. We got a press conference. I'm like, hold on, I'm getting kicked outta the sports book right now. And so that, no way, that was my draft day experience.
And the, the, the staff of the sports work's like, Hey, you just got drafted in the NBA.
They, they're like, don't care. Get outta
here. No, they didn't. I was like, that's me. I like, literally I'm talking, that's me. And they're like, get out now. I was like, okay. So yeah,
you go out and then,
and they flew me to Detroit the next day. I was on a flight the next morning from Vegas and did a press conference and., yeah. Then my agent started working deals for me. I got a free car, through a Toyota dealership. I got a four runner and I had a car already. I was in so much debt. It's, that was the crazy part. I was in so much debt because you don't get your first page. I didn't get my first paycheck till November 15th.
I had to get a place to live. I had to get a car. I didn't have an income. I didn't have a job, you know, and so I didn't have any money and my agent is just fronting some of this stuff. And I got loans for esa 'cause I didn't want my agent paying for anything. I wanted to make sure that it was me paying for it.
I had to get an insurance policy from Lloyd's of London for Summer League, which cost me about $60,000 to cover my entire rookie contract in case I got hurt playing Summer League because they, they wouldn't sign me yet. You know, like the, the, the process was at that point, I don't know if it's changed, but I didn't sign until after Summer League, like August with the Pistons.
So technically I'm just. Unrestricted, you know, like I'm just a free agent, I guess.
Yeah.
And so I had to get an insurance policy against my rookie contract, and it cost me like 50, $60,000 that I didn't have. And so I was in debt like a hundred grand before I got my first paycheck. And I was freaking out.
I was just like, I don't even know how many zeroes that is. I, I had no money.
You're in debt. 50 grand,
a hundred, a hundred. That, like I'm, I leased a car and then I got the free Toyota. but I mean, I had to get a house. I, you know, I was leasing a house in Birmingham,
obviously, you know, you're, you're hoping though you don't get hurt in Summer league.
You make it there and you think like, you know, you're gonna be rich in wealthy in the whole nine yards. But it is, it's not just like you get drafted and all of a sudden they give you a giant check for $10 million, you know? Yeah.
And maybe they do now, but back then they didn't.
Wow.
So, yeah, that was the beginning of my rookie year and, yeah.
And you, and you only spent one year in Detroit?
Yeah. so Charles O'Bannon, who went to UCLA and we were friends. He got picked with that pick in the first part, the first pick of the second round. And so we were teammates and we, we got along really well. He's, he's really the only reason I wanted to go to UCLA.
'cause I really like Charles O'Bannon, the whole O'Bannon family. And by the way, if you're mad at NIL, blame Ed O'Bannon, Charles's older brother. 'cause he's the one that started all of this. He sued the NCAA
about the video game.
Mm-hmm. And that's what started all of it. Ed o' Bannon is the father of NIL.
And I'm glad, I'm happy for him. I'm happy for all the kids that are getting paid now. I, I know it's crazy and I know it doesn't make any sense. And like I said, I've been through it with my son and the transfer portal, it's the wild West. There's no rules. People say, oh yeah, we're following the rules.
Everyone's offer was different. Not nothing is uniform. There's no guarantees, there's no contracts that are guaranteed. There's no union. It is the wild, wild west. So good luck if you're gonna go to the transfer portal. And that's why my son is like, I'm not leaving.
Yeah.
I'm staying in Hawaii. And it's not even just that it's Hawaii, it's just that he loves the coaching staff.
That's why he went there. He didn't care about the money, he didn't care about anything. He got. The, he got offered money in other places.
Yeah.
And he was just like, I love this coaching staff. Yeah. I wanna run through a brick wall.
And I mean, like, you had to spend four years in Hawaii, like
Yeah.
Oh, not a bad college experience.
Yeah.
Aloha baby.
Yeah.
So, okay. So then with, the, what was his name? O'Bannon. Mm-hmm. Coming from in the second round. First pick of the second round.
Yeah. He's from LA so we knew each other from all star games in la His team actually knocked my team out of the state playoffs in our junior year. Yeah.
Of high school. He went to Artesia and they came down 'cause we were the higher seed. They came to our place and they knocked us out. And I was just like, I hate you Charles. I love you, but I hate you.
Yeah. Yeah. And so why, why did it only end up being one year in Detroit?
Doug Collins was the coach.
Yeah.
And Doug couldn't yell at the older guys. It was Grant Hill. It was two of the bad boys. It was still Joe Dumars and Rick Mahorn. That's how old I am. Yeah. Yeah., grant long. And you know, these guys that were veteran Grisled veterans and Grant Hill, he's not yelling at them.
Yeah,
so he is yelling at the white guy.
I was the only white guy on the team. And he's yelling at me and he's yelling at, you know, 'cause I'm a rookie. He's like, you wanna be crazy with the painted nails? I'm like, I don't paint my nails anymore. I never painted my nails in the NBA contrary to popular opinion of people that tell me how my nails looked., so, he, he and I rubbed each other the wrong way. He got fired halfway through the year and Alvin Gentry, the official associate interim head coach of the NBA for that decade and the next decade, he took over and he was a Jayhawk. He coached with Larry Brown at Kansas. So he was like, Hey, Jayhawk, I was there and I didn't know that, but he was there before I was at Kansas as an assistant.
And, and he loved me. But, you know, there were, I needed to get faster and it wasn't physically, it was the pace of the game of the NBA was different. I was used to read, react, and see where you need to be and go get there. And that's how I learned how to play basketball. And that's what we did at Kansas.
There was plays, there were sets, but we re, we read and reacted to each other. And in the NBA we had to run, run all these plays and it was just like, you know, fist down four x 3 9, 5 45 2, we're gonna shoot with three seconds left on the clock. It's the Eastern conference in the nineties. You know, we're gonna score 80 points, it's gonna be boring as hell, but we're gonna guard the other team.
Like, great, thank you. This is a blast where I'm used to scoring 95 points a game in college, you know, now we're in the NBA and it's like 80. I'm like, ugh, this is brutal. And I don't remember plays. 'cause again, I'm a read and react guy and so it didn't go well for me in Detroit. And then there was a lockout,
oh yeah,
after my rookie year, so nothing happened.
And then they said, Hey, it was like January or so, they were like, Hey, come back in town. It looks like it's, it's gonna get settled. So I went back up there and we were working out, allowed to go in the building and stuff. And then one day I go into work out and Lindsey Hunter looks at me, he goes. Hey, man, what the f you doing here?
And I was like, ha ha, what are you doing here? And he is like, no, I was in the paper this morning. You got traded.
No
way. So I go over to the GM's office, they made me wait an hour, and then he finally let me in, Rick Sun let me in. Finally, he goes, Hey man, that that reporter, guest. I'm like, guest. And it happened, like, come on, you could've given me a warning.
I'm, I'm like, I'm here. I could have, I could've broken the lease on my house last year, and now I've got another year lease on it. And you're trading me, or you're Yeah, he traded me. So I got traded for Christian Laettner to Atlanta. And, again, lockout year, this is like February I go to Atlanta. They gimme a, a physical, they gimme a flu shot.
I got so sick they cut me like I never played for the Atlanta Hawks. They, I two years left in my guaranteed contract. The rest of the lockout year and the following year, Atlanta paid me while I was playing for the Sacramento Kings.
No way.
Yeah. And, 'cause
of a flu shot.
Yeah. I got really sick. I, I could not leave the hotel room.
It was just coming out everywhere.
Gosh.
It was brutal.
All right, so then you end up getting picked up by the, the kings.
I got picked up by the kings. I, so the, the deal was back then there was no reserve list. And the Atlanta gm, Pete Babcock, awesome dude. Just, just an awesome dude. much respect for him.
But he was just like, look, we don't keep reserve players. And at the time it was, you had to be on an injured reserve, so you had to fake an injury if you were on the injured reserve roster. So you could stay getting paid, but also sometimes travel with the team, or not travel, but at least be on the roster.
Well, they wanted to challenge that rule and just make it a reserve list, which is what it is now. And so he was like, we could, we want you to just be on the reserve list without an injury or we can cut you. And so I was like, hold on. I went out and called my agent. He goes, tell him to give you some time.
So I went in and I was like, Pete, my agent wants to call some teams. About an hour later, he called me. He said, there's four teams that want you right. They'll, they'll fly you out today or tomorrow. I said pick one because at this point it's my second team in a, in a year and a half and I'm going, I don't know if I belong in the NBA, you know, like this.
I get here and Lenny Wilkens doesn't even know my name. He is the head coach of the team. He is like, you guard Dikembe. So I didn't think, you know, maybe I, maybe I'm not cut out for this. And so he was like, I think Sacramento's a good fit for you. They're putting a team together and there's talent and nobody's roster spot is set.
You have a chance to play. So I flew from Atlanta to Philadelphia the next day. Took a Cleveland or took a physical there. They didn't gimme a flu shot. And I was in a jersey that night for the Kings and played for the Sacramento Kings that night. And the rest, as they say is history. I played there for five seasons.
You, they fly you to Philly and say Suit up kid. You're going in.
Yep. They had a jersey in my, with my number and name on it already. They did it in Phil.
You're
like, you know, in the pregame you're like, okay, and your name is
Yeah. And your name. I'm like, I don't know anybody on the team. I mean, I'd heard of Vlade Divac, I'd heard of Chris Webber, but I didn't know who Jason Williams was.
Peja Stojakovic Corliss Williamson. I knew from college 'cause he was a legend at Arkansas.
Yeah.
you know, but I'd heard of some of the guys, but I didn't know anybody.
So. So then you end up spending five seasons with Sacramento.
Yep.
Like how was your time there? Like,
we made the playoffs every year. we were the first King's team in history to make it past the first round. Then we went to the Western conference finals against the Lakers and a lot of people would say game six of that Western conference finals was the, the officially most obviously rigged game in the history of the NBA,, vlade.
Chris and I fouled out. Shaq had two fouls and shot. I think he shot 14 free throws in the fourth quarter. I think they shot 20 something as of team in the fourth quarter. Now, I'm not saying it's rigged. Okay. I'm just saying it's notorious. Like Ralph Nader wrote a letter to the NBA. That's how obvious that a lot of people thought that it was rigged because we were the best team in the league.
We had the best record in the league. We had home court advantage. And we like. I ended up playing with Brian Scalabrine who was on the Nets at this time, and the Nets had won the east already. They're waiting for who's gonna win this series, and he said until game four when we were teammates at the Celtics.
Years later he goes, until game four, we weren't even scouting the Lakers. We knew you guys were gonna win.
This is crazy ai. If you Google it,
yeah, Google it.
You Google it. And they say the 2002 Western Conference finals Game six. Between the Los Angeles Lakers and the Sacramento Kings is widely considered the most controversial and allegedly rigged game in NBA history.
Questionable officiating included a lopsided 40 to 25 free throw advantage for the Lakers fueled allegations of manipulation. Yeah. The Lakers shot 27 free throws in the fourth quarter alone, aiding a comeback to the king against the kings.
Yep. And then
that's ai. Like that's crazy.
It's, it's widely known.
And I know younger generations don't, haven't heard of it. 'cause it's 2002. Like that's, you were probably like four years old at this point. Or maybe not even born.
I was five. Yeah.
There we go. so it is old, but, and, and I don't say anything like that. Like I'm I'm not saying it's rigged, I'm just saying there's a whole lot of information.
Yeah. That it, that it might be my take on it has always been. That's why you get home court advantage. That's why you earn home court advantage. And we had it and we went home in game seven and we crapped the bed.
Yeah.
We should've beat it. But the problem is we let superstars be superstars. We let Kobe and Shaq be superstars and it came out of 'em in game seven.
Yeah.
And we didn't have anything for him then.
Yeah.
So that's why we lost. And, and so, fast forward, 'cause I know where you're going that summer, I am happily a Sacramento king planning. I have three years left on my contract with him. And you know, we got this western carpenter. I know. Sorry. One more year at the Kings.
Yeah. Then after 23, 22, 23 season, we get to the Western conference maybe. Yeah. Second round.
Yeah.
Still happy to be a Sacramento king and, and, I'm in Kansas as I always was in my off season and,, playing cards with my friends in the basement and they're like, Hey, turn the TV on. So, turned the TV on and on the ticker below it was like three team deals, Sacramento Kings Trade, Scot Pollard for Brad Miller.
And I'm like, wait, what?
Like these, and these are conversations that you're giving heads up on?
No, not at all. I had no idea for Detroit going to Atlanta, and I had no idea. nobody called me. Did
they calling your agent or anything, or No,
my agent said, I called him. I was like, Jeff, what the, and he's like, I had no idea.
They didn't tell me,
was like, and so that's what plants you in Indiana?
Yeah. Brad Miller wanted 60 million for six years, and I was getting paid half that. So Sacramento was like, we're gonna upgrade to Brad Miller. And we're, and the king or the Pacers were like, we're going to save money. And get Scot Pollard for Brad Miller.
Yeah. At half the price, and it was a three team deal. I mean, Hedo Turkoglu went from Sacramento to San Antonio. Ron Mercer went from here, Pacers to San Antonio, and Danny Ferry went from San Antonio to Indiana. They cut him and he became the assistant G to San Antonio.
I mean, this is now you're venturing, east of the Mississippi.
Yeah. And I'm livid. I I don't wanna play. I, my rookie year in the Eastern Conference, I was like, man, this is not basketball. This is memorize playbooks. Yeah. Walk up the court guard people like I'm a great defender, but this boring basketball. I like to run. I'm a run, read, react, you know, tip dunk. Go set screens, you know, get guys open.
I can shoot threes. The problem is, in my era, I was way better than say, I don't know Reggie Miller at setting screens and rebounding and he was better at shooting threes. I think anybody could agree with that. Yeah. So, you know, unlike today's era where it's like, oh, you're seven four, why don't you shoot some threes?
No. Get your ass in the post. Yeah. And do what you're really good at. Be great at one thing. Don't try to be marginal at everything. And that's what I hate about the game today, but that's a different story. That's story. So,, I'm, you know, livid that I'm going back to the Eastern Conference and that's exactly what it was.
Rick Carlisle, I love Rick Carlisle, but this wasn't current Rick Carlisle. This was 1999, 2000, 2003 Carlisle,
this is oh 3 0 4, your first
with
the
Pacers.
And he had just left Detroit, got fired by Detroit and took credit for assembling that team that ended up knocking us out and winning the National Champ or the NBA championship.
So he was livid about that. But I love Rick Carlisle, but this is. We're gonna grind it out. Playbook is three inches thick. Memorize the plays, we're gonna get the ball into Jermaine O'Neal. We're gonna average 82 points. We're gonna, they're gonna score 78. We're gonna grind it out. So, you know, nowadays they're scoring 120 points a game.
I would've loved playing for this version of Rick Carlisle. 'cause this is my brand.
You, you show up there. This is at the end of Reggie's career, right?
It was his last two years were my first two years here. And it was a pleasure playing with Reggie. We, we hit it off, we became good friends and, he invited me to his retirement party.
So I was honored to be a part of that.
What did you think about like, the state, the city of Indianapolis, coming from, you know, Kansas and the West coast
in the NBA at the time, there was no better crowd than Sacramento. We, it, it was incredible. And everywhere we went, because we had European guys, we had a Turkish guy, we had Serbian guys, we'd go to Chicago and Chicago wasn't good at this point, but we'd go to Chicago and it'd be mostly our fans because if you didn't know, Chicago has the largest population of Serbians outside of Serbia.
So,
yeah,
they filled it up for Vlade and Peja Vlade one year while we were teammates, you know, the war was going on, Yugoslavia was breaking up and all that stuff. And he got 20% of the write-in vote for president of Serbia. And he wasn't running?
No.
Okay. He's, he's kind of a big deal that's sick and I can go on about stories about him, but, we'd go to New Jersey and apparently there's a lot of Turkish people in Jersey and we had Turkish, Michael Jordan, Hedo Turkoglu on our team, Turkish Michael, and back then it was the Meadowland.
So it was like four stories, I'm pretty sure. 'cause it played football in there too. And the whole upper deck would be all Turkish flags for Hedo. I mean, he, we literally, we had a play called TMJ and it was Turkish Michael Jordan. It was Hedo's play.
That's hype.
So,, anyway, that, that was what I was used to as a Sacramento King Kansas.
We, we traveled, well, everywhere we went in the Big 10 or big eight back then. Then now it's a big 12., you know, it was a home court advantage. Like Colorado was a home court for us because anybody in western Kansas couldn't get tickets to the game, would go to the Colorado game, and Colorado didn't do well.
So they would sell the tickets to whoever and we'd have a home court advantage. Mm. Sacramento was a lot like that. You know, we'd go to some of the Eastern teams that didn't, weren't very good and we'd beat 'em up because we had a bunch of fans, you know, Sacramento fans. 'cause we appealed to so many. Our, our play was fun.
We played like they do today, except everybody had a position. The ball moved around so much and everybody stayed in their position, but the ball moved and everybody scored. You didn't know who was gonna beat you.
Yeah.
And the superstars didn't care about points at this point. You know, some of 'em were, you know, they'd go in and out of that, like, I need my, I need more money, I need need more touches.
You know, all that. But for the most part, it was very unselfish basketball. And so we appealed to people that weren't even fans because of the Serbians or the Turkish guys, or Chris Webber or whatever. but we had white chocolate. I mean, she's, that guy was a joy to play with and watch play basketball.
And then Mike Bibby, who again, was on the team at Arizona that beat me my senior year. So I was like, Mike, I'm Mike. Murder you, but no great teammate. And he just, he hit big shots for us, man. He was, he was great., but, yeah, so I'm used to all of this.
Yeah.
And then I get to Indiana and the loudest, I heard the crowd my first year here, and we were good.
We, we went to the Eastern Conference Finals that year, oh oh 3, 0 4. And, the loudest I heard the building was one time when Peyton Manning walked in. I was like, oh, this is a Cols town. Got it.
Yeah.
I I don't mean to piss people off, but
No,
but that, I mean, that's, it is, I mean, it, it, it's a, it's a cults town.
When the Cols are good, they care a lot more than when the Pacers are good. And that's fine. That's just the way it is here. I think Kansas City is the same way now. They got a good Royals team that's won a World Series. Yeah. But yet they don't care as much as when the chiefs are good.
Yeah. Now what about this past year?
I felt like the city that place was rocking for.
Yeah. But the cults suck. It's kind of, you know, so it's like, okay, well this team's good. Yeah. So that's, and that's also natural, you know, it's not front running. It is kind of front running. Yeah. But it's not because, you know, hey, the, the football team's not that good.
So let's rally around the basketball team. And now are they selling out every game? No, they're not. They're terrible. Because they've, you know, of everything that everybody knows. But,, it was great to see. We got to go to a couple of the games. They invited us to a few of the games, so I got to go to some of them.
And my son, Ozzy, who's, he's a big dude, he was really excited to meet Ron Artest at one of the games. 'cause he was like, that guy's nuts. I was like, yes, yes. Literally he's been diagnosed., but Ronnie's such a great dude. I, I love him. He off the court. teammates, not so much, but off the court, Ron is just an awesome human being.
I love him.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, this past year I felt like it, it was some of the loudest environments I'd been into. I think it was game six at home when I think we ended up like running 'em out of the gym and it was crazy. Yeah. Just like the whole thing was wild. Yeah., we, you know, prefaced in the beginning you talk about the eventual condition that ended up, taking your, your dad.
Yeah.
What, what is this condition?
there's no diagnosis name for it. it is a genetic,, anomaly., you know, when you go to the doctor, anybody and they say you're an interesting case, that's pretty much the worst thing you could hear. You do
not want to hear that. No. Because
that means they don't know what to do, or what you have., and so I heard that several times. but, but it all started, I was, I, I got my heart checked every year because of my dad. You know, because, and I have two older siblings in heart failure. One of my brothers and my sister, and both of theirs started with cancer. They had, my brother had thyroid cancer, my sister had breast cancer, and the drugs caused her heart.
She was first, her caused her heart to go crazy., but a pacemaker is, is keeping her stable. my brother, he's getting worse., but he's still just pacemaker and drugs and, so he's probably gonna be closer to a transplant in the next year or so. But I got my heart checked in January of 21.
Everything was great. And they were like, you're gonna live forever. I was like, awesome, but you should probably get a COVID shot. I was like, no, I'm not gonna do that. And now I listen everybody, I want you to understand, I'm telling my story. I'm not telling you what to do. Okay. Do you do whatever you wanna do, but this is my story.
Yeah, absolutely.
So,, I said No. And they said, well, you should at least get a flu shot. So I told 'em the flu shot story from Atlanta. I was like, flu shots don't agree with me. I got so sick they cut me. I'm not doing that. And they're like, well, it'll protect you if you get COVID.
A flu shot made me unemployed.
Yeah. Like they, I got fired for getting so sick from a flu shot. I was like, I don't really wanna do that. And they were like, well, it'll protect you if you get the COVID. We don't know about this thing. This is January of 21. Right. So I get the flu shot three days later. I can't walk across the room. I am passing out, I am, I'm breathing hard all the time.
And I go to the urgent clinic 'cause I'm like, I'm not gonna the hospital. This is probably just a weird flu. Maybe I got the COVID and I didn't, I got a flu, but it wasn't that 'cause they wanted it to be that they tested me about 15 times and they said, you've got a flu but you need to go to the hospital.
And I was like, why? I'll just go home. What? Who goes to the hospital for flu? And he is like, your heart's beating 10,000 extra beats a day. So, the, the flu virus, whatever it was, attacked my heart and released that genetic anomaly. And that's how my dad started. My dad had a virus and it was for him. He kept getting pneumonia, but the virus had started years earlier and it was a slower progression for him than it was for me.
But,, yeah, that virus just released it and I immediately, I'm in heart failure. And you know, it wouldn't be fair to not say the rest of this about shots. Again, my story, they were like, now you need to get a COVID shot. 'cause if you get COVID, you're gonna die. And, you know, being threatened with death while you're having a hard time breathing, just sitting down.
you know, kind of throws you a little bit. So I got the first one and I had my first ablation, which is where they put a wire in your groin and they feed it up to your heart and they burn the piece of heart. So my, my issue was, so there's, when you have problems with your heart, usually it's plumbing or electrical, you know, your pipes are clogged or you have AFib like, you know, electrical short circuits.
Yeah.
I had short circuits. They called 'em PVCs. And no, my, my plumbing was perfect. but my, my heart was short circuiting and beating all kinds of weird ways. PVCs 10,000 extra beats a day.
Yeah.
And so I've got an ablation scheduled for them to go in with a wire and burn the piece of heart that's causing the short circuit.
And hopefully that solves everything. And I'm fine. And I get the second shot about three or four days before my ablation in the University of Chicago. And by the time I get to the University of Chicago Hospital for my ablation, I'm like, it hurts to breathe. I can't lay flat, I can't sit up. Every time I move, my chest hurts really bad.
I think I'm having a heart attack or something's going on here. And so they did a scan and they were like, oh, you have myocarditis and pericarditis, you're gonna the ICU. And I went to the ICU for four days IV steroids and almost died.
Oh my
God. So there will be no more shots going into my body.
Yeah. And I mean like, again, your story, like your experience.
Yeah. It's just, that's how I react. I mean, everyone's body reacts, you know, different And it's, and it's not like this is a new thing. Like this was something that happened back in
21
in Well and when you were
Oh yeah. 1999.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, just doesn't react well, you know, with that, and I wanna preface, Google the average heartbeats a hundred thousand times per day.
Like roughly. Yeah. So this is a 10% increase. Like you're beating, you know,
it was like I was running uphill every day.
Yeah. Just,
I'm sitting down sweating. Just, and I couldn't talk. I was like, oxygen wasn't gonna, my brain
going into IC into the ICU. Are you still like coherent?
Yeah, I don't recall a lot about it.
I just remember being very disappointed 'cause I couldn't get the ablation. Yeah. Because my heart was on fire and you can't go in there and shock it with a, you know, burn it because it's already on fire. And the pericarditis is pericardial. Pericardium is the little sac that's in your heart's in it. And so when that's inflamed it's squeezing your heart.
And plus my heart is inflamed, so Yeah. That's why it hurt. That's why it hurt to breathe and it hurt to lay flat and so they have to get that inflammation down 'cause it can be fatal.
You spend four days in the ICU and then it ends up kind of subsiding a little bit.
The steroids got the inflammation under control.
But they said you, you, you still have to like let this completely subside. So they couldn't do the ablation then? Yeah, they had to schedule it for like two months later.
Okay. So you're just living
just back on the couch?
Yeah. Eh, like, just like tired
all the time. Yeah.
Ran out of energy.
Yep. No oxygen going in my brain.
Couldn't form a thought. Had to stop doing public appearances. Couldn't do podcasts, couldn't do radio interviews. No. MCing., you know, just, just telling people no. Didn't go public with it. Just told people, oh, you know, I just can't,, yeah. You know, busy or whatever. I was lying to a lot of people, you know, 'cause I was used to doing gigs, you know, public speaking, going to speak at Corp Corporate headquarters or whatever, this and that.
Pacers appearances, you know, going, doing basketball camps for the Pacers and little charity things around the town. And, you know, I, I would rest up and do some of 'em, but not speaking, you know, some of 'em, like jubilation, we would try to go, 'cause my wife and I always go to ation. we've been a part of that.
Yeah., on, on committees before, so we try to make that one. But I was one of 'em, I remember just like, after about half hour, 45 minutes, I was like, I gotta go. I just, I couldn't talk, couldn't stand there anymore. I was just like, we gotta go. I got, I'm like, just like falling asleep, standing up. Yeah. We have to leave and so.
It just, it, it was fast, but it was also like slow. Yeah. Because I, I, I didn't really think about saying no to so many people for, so for three years. And then finally January of 23, I was accused of faking it.
And so what, that's when I decided to go public and I went on my social medias and I was just like, Hey, just want everybody to know the reason I'm not out there and in public anymore is because I'm in heart failure and things aren't going well. And that's actually when ESPN reached out.
Wait, you were accused of faking this
heart failure?
Yeah. I know.
So then you go public.
Yeah.
And say and like what, what did the process of what you were going through look like? What was going on?
Well, I'm trying not to die. my wife's wearing all the hats. She's doing all the parenting. She's getting the kids where they need to go. Are
you going to the hospital frequently?, I'm in and out, depending on, you know, but really they, there's nothing they can do. It's just degenerating. And I had, I ended up having three ablations at the University of Chicago, and the third ablation was January of 23. In fact, I'm wrong on that. I didn't go public till January of 24, I think.
'cause it was, yeah, it was like January of 24. December, somewhere in there. but January of 23, I had my third ablation. And, and my wife told me this story 'cause the doctor came in and talked to her. I was still unconscious, but, he came in, it was eight hours and he said, I've never put that much heat in anybody's heart before.
And he goes, I'm done. Like there's, every time I kill one, another one pops up. He says, it's whack-a-mole in there. And he goes, I won't do anymore ablations on him. I'll kill. So that's when the, that closed the door on that procedure because, and he was the best. That's why I kept gonna, the University of Chicago.
It was like, I've been fortunate to have friends in, in different, you know, fields of life. I've keep in touch with people. I, I'm connect with people. Every city I played in and played for, I, I, you know, friends with doctors and lawyers and stuff. I don't like being friends with lawyers. They know this.
And so, so
they recommended this guy in Chicago.
And then how does it end up coming to the point where you have to have a transplant?
So later that year, 23, September of 23, they're, they've tried every drug. They tried one drug that they didn't tell me until afterwards that the first side effect is death., one of the drugs I got came in a glass bottle.
CVS had to wait two weeks to get it in. 'cause they're like, we don't carry this drug. And it came in a glass bottle. They were like, don't touch it with your hands. What? Like, I'm supposed to put this in my mouth, but don't touch it with my hands. They're like, if you do, do it quick and wash your hands immediately.
I was like, all right. So I put it in a piece of paper, I poured it out on a piece of paper. I grabbed a piece of paper and put it in my mouth and then I washed my hands anyway. But what the, that one didn't work either., but they were, you know, they were trying drugs that, that they, you know, one of 'em, I remember they said they stopped giving it to people with PVCs in the seventies 'cause they had a high incidence of death.
but they were trying anything and none of it worked. The ablations didn't work. So September of 23, they were like, well, you need to start talking about a transplant. And then I was like, oh, I'm gonna die like my dad 'cause my donor has to be seven feet tall. Right. And they said, no, technology's gotten better.
We just need a guy that's six three. I'm like, oh, that makes me feel a whole lot better. 'cause there's what, 10% of all humans or above six three. So it didn't really gimme a whole lot of hope. Yeah. Of finding, you know, even a donor at six three., so that's when we started talking about it. And, I was like, nah, I'm just gonna live.
And, I'm gonna try not to get teary-eyed when I tell this story because, my wife loves me very much and. I was just, I, I said, no, I'm not doing a transplant. I don't wanna do it. I'm so tired. I was, I was sick and my brain wasn't working. And I was just so tired. I didn't want any more drugs. I didn't want anymore any side effects.
I didn't want any more procedures. I was like, I don't wanna do this. I just wanna let it go. I'm going, I'm just gonna go. And, she goes, this isn't about you. This is about me and your kids. And that was the verbal slap in the face I needed because I was being selfish. Like, I grew up angry because my dad died at 16 and I had a 16-year-old at this point.
And I'm gonna just not try to stay alive for him. And my, our younger one, not my older kids too, but you know, they're outta the house already. And I've got a 16-year-old and at the time, at the time, a 16-year-old and at the time, a 7-year-old, and I'm just gonna fade out. And so that was, that was when I got listed at St.
Vincent's. it was because my wife was like, you're not. Can I wait? she loves me a lot.
Yeah.
Because I have life insurance. She could have just
Yeah, right. You know,
she could have just taken that and got the bag moved back to Colorado. You know, she didn't need all this, but,, no, she, she talked me into it.
What does the process of getting on the heart transplant list look like? One, do you have to get like, referred in from a previous doctor saying like, Hey, you know, this is a relatively healthy individual, that it would be a good candidate for donation or, or like transplant., that doesn't happen that way.
Exactly. Yeah. You have to get tested and not just physical tests. They test your sociological framework. Do you have a circle? Can someone take care of you? You have to sign up. A caregiver that's willing and able to drop everything and be with you in the hospital and get you to every appointment before and after., Vanderbilt required. Of those,
who's your second one?
my second one was Brent Joseph, who's a friend of mine that,, we graduated college together at Kansas City.
So you had a buddy, you had a buddy that,
and he signed up to be my second, yeah. To be my second fan. That's pretty
special.
But, St.
Vincent's,, they needed one. And they do psychological counseling. They do sociological counseling. They checked on my wife, they checked my substance abuse history, because they're not gonna give an organ to somebody. Like, you know, people sometimes need a liver and they're like, they're not gonna give one to an alcoholic.
Right. Yeah. and if you smoke weed, you're immediately disqualified from Vanderbilt because, and not everybody's like that, but Vanderbilt's like that. And it's because THC directly negatively impacts your anti-rejection drugs. So like, I can't, not, not that I wanna smoke weed. I, I've done it and it wasn't my thing, but Yeah., they're like, don't ever smoke weed. 'cause it makes your anti-rejection drugs not work.
Yeah.
So I'm like, yeah, that's easy.
Don't smoke weed. Like your life depends
on it. Yeah. Like, no, I'm good. but anyway. So you give, I gave 17 vials of blood for St. Vincent's. I gave 23 for University of Chicago and I gave 33 for Vanderbilt.
And the reason why I got listed at three different places in three different regions is because getting listed at two different hospitals in Indiana, you're still going for the same organs. It's the same donor pool. And so that doesn't do you any good. but luckily I had a connection at the University of Chicago 'cause that's where I got my ablation.
So I went up there and I got listed there., Chicago, St. Vincent's listed me as status four, which is the highest level you can be without, an external heart pump called an LVAD, which I was not a candidate for without any other, you know, being sick enough.
Yeah.
So I was listed status four, which means like, you know, hopefully they get a heart and I call and it's too big for anybody else, and they call me and I go in and get a heart transplant.
So we're sitting there thinking like, it's like, you know, if you're a father or mother and you're like, oh, you know, winter water breaks, we'll have a bag packed for the hospital and we'll just go. That's kind what we were thinking it was gonna be like. And uh. We had plans to go to the University of Chicago and we went up there and we had already made plans to go to Vanderbilt the next week.
And so we got up to University of Chicago, and it's about a month after being listed here and going through the process here, did the same thing over again for the University of Chicago. And then St. Vincent sent their data up and as I'm leaving, we're leaving the University of Chicago to go back home.
The cardiologist at Chicago calls me, how you feeling? I said, I'm exhausted. I, I'm, I need to go to bed. And he goes, take it easy. He goes, I just got your data from Indiana. I'm not saying I would've kept you, but I might've kept you. Meaning I had gone downhill that fast in a month. And he goes, I know you're gonna Vanderbilt next week.
Take it easy this weekend. And so I go back home, rest for the weekend, and we're planning another three day trip to Vanderbilt to get tested there. Day two of Vanderbilt, they said, you're done. We've seen enough. You're gonna the ICU, you're not leaving here without a new heart. Because I was so sick. So we were supposed to be there for three days.
We were there for three months.
Holy.
Yeah. And kids here in Indiana. And we're in Nashville, Tennessee. and the thing is, is I wasn't in the hospital for that long. I was only in the hospital total like 28 days. But cardiac rehab, you have testing, you have biopsies and all this kinda stuff to check for rejection and all that.
So you have to stay in the hospital.
How, how long from the first day you showed up at Vanderbilt that, for that trip until you got the new heart in?
I was there on the fifth for testing. I got there on the fourth, but we testing started on the fifth and on the sixth, I remember, I, I, I quit for the second time in my life.
The first time I already told you about when I, my wife was like, no, you're getting this. And that morning, Tuesday morning was day two of testing and I just looked at her. I was like, I'm not going. I'm tired. I'm just gonna stay here. I don't wanna get outta bed. She said, get your ass up, I'll get you a wheelchair.
And she did. And so we got to the hospital and that's when, you know, they admitted me to the ICU that day. That was February 6th. And as time would tell my donor, Casey had been in the hospital for four days at that point in Texas. And I only know this 'cause we've gotten friendly with the family, but he was already in the hospital.
It's February 6th, my birthday is February 12th. And on the 11th at Super Bowl Sunday, they said, watch the Super Bowl, enjoy no food after midnight. You're getting a new heart tomorrow. I was like, on my birthday, I'm getting a new heart. And they're like, yep, wake up. My birthday. The nurse brings in balloons.
Jorge, my man, he brought in balloons for my birthday. I'm just like, this is the greatest day of my life and I can barely breathe. I can barely think. And I was just like, this is awesome. I hadn't shaved my head or my face because I was like, I'm not shaved until I get a new heart. So it was pretty long.
And they shaved me, my wife and one of the nurses, shaved me. To get ready. 10 o'clock rolls around 11, 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, I'm starving. And they finally go, yeah, that heart's not gonna work., you can go ahead and eat. And then they called me right back and said, hold on, don't eat. We might have another one. And then they called me 15 minutes later and they said, go ahead and eat.
This one's not gonna work either.
Oh gosh, you're getting yo-yo on the
heart.
So I had two false alarms on my birthday. And, so we ate, we cried, kept waiting. so that was day six, which again, this is nothing. I, personally know people now that have been in the hospital for months sitting and waiting for a transplant, you know, normal sized people that are competing against normal sized people for a donor heart, right?
So, on the one hand, I was in a rare pool of needing a big heart for, from a big person.
but on the other hand, I, because I, my, I was listed as status two, which is the second highest, highest is status. One, you're, you're on a machine keeping you alive and you need a heart now, or you're gonna die.
Status two, which means I had machines and drugs being pumped into me, not machines, but I had drugs being pumped into me to keep my heart from beating too much and also not stopping. but also I couldn't leave the hospital without a new heart, but they put an E at the end of it, two E, which was the exception for my size.
So it put me a little bit higher than a status two, because if a big heart came, they're not gonna give it to somebody normal size, they're gonna give it to me. So,, that's, that's where I was. It was day six on my birthday, and then waited four more days, February 16th. And finally, Casey is my donor, his name, his family was, told like he's, he's done.
He's not gonna make it. He's never gonna wake up. up He'd been in and outta the hospital for years with chronic pneumonia. He was a smoker, lifetime smoker. And he was a big guy. and so just, he wasn't a candidate for a lung transplant. He wasn't a candidate for anything. He was, he was out, his brain was dead, for the most part.
And so they were keeping him alive and the family made the decision for him to be a donor. He saved five people that day. Two teenagers with his kidneys, his corneas, and other organs. 'cause he saved five lives. and I got his heart and true story. His last name is Angel Casey. Angel is my angel. Yeah.
So,. That's, the beginning of my wife's charity, called Pearls of Life, named after my dad. But also there's like a little biblical thing, called Pearls of Wisdom in the Bible. It's kind of a phrase. And so we kind of did a play on words for both of those. Yeah. And that's the name of the charity
on February 16th.
February 16th, 2024 is when I got my new heart.
So you're just rolled over two years.
Yeah, just had my two year checkup. They said I'm gonna live forever, so I got that going for me.
Nice. Yeah. There we go. I
got the, I wanna dive into this a little bit., one, how long did recovery take?
So what you do when you get a heart transplant is you trade one chronic disease for another one.
I am chronically immunosuppressed for life because they gimme drugs to kill my immune system so that I don't reject Casey's heart. And that's true of any transplant recipient., so these drugs are awful. They cause kidney failure, they cause liver failure., a lot of people end up getting a, needing a kidney or a liver later on if, because of the drugs.
I'm in stage three kidney failure since transplant., my kidneys have gotten better and they're stable and I'm really close to stage two, which is great news because pretty much anybody over 50, I'm 51 now, pretty much anyone over 50 is in stage two kidney failure, like that's normal. Yeah. 'cause you're over 50.
So if I can get my kidneys up to like five more points, I'll be over 60. And that's the number, the EGFR number. And that'll put me in stage two kidney failure. And then I can relax a little bit about that
because you ended up spending a total of three months down in Nashville.
Yeah, so I was outta the hospital.
I was like, how long after, what's the record of getting outta here after heart transplant? And they said five days. I was like, I'm gonna be out in four. And I wasn't, they, they said it was a kid and kids react well be a lot better than adults.
Hey Liz. The process look like they just carve open your chest, detach everything of the old heart and reattach like a new
Yeah,
it's like wiring in, like computers something.
So be again, I went public in January of 24, so ESPN called my wife and I said absolutely not. I don't, I don't, I don't like Disney. I don't dig ESPN. I don't do that, but I think Disney's an evil corporate, corporate empire. And so I didn't wanna do it. And then they sent us a couple samples of other e sixties that this man had produced Dan Lindbergh.
And I was like, okay, is he doing it? And they said, yeah, it's him. I said, all right, then you can be. So they just happened to be there in Nashville. 'cause that was the first time they were trying to get to Chicago for my testing there and they could get to Nashville. So they happened to be there. And I got admitted to the ICU.
They didn't plan that. Nobody knew that was gonna happen, but that's what happened. So they were actually there. So they have footage of it and they filmed, I signed off, they filmed my whole heart transplant. So if you watch the movie Heart of Pearl, the E 60, you can see my heart beat. Its last beat on a table in a bowl.
It shows it. that's crazy They show Casey's heart come out of a plastic bag, out of a plastic thing, out of a cooler. 'cause they went and got it in Texas and flew it to Nashville. And then you see the doctor, Dr. Shaw that did my surgery, he pulls it out.
So does, does Casey's heart stay on ice and get tra in
the cooler?
And then somehow, because it's like you just like get it started again.
So they they reanimate Yeah., when they put it in. But yeah, like literally I'm on a table with no heart in my body.
It's, it's, and it's not beating
at
all while it's on the way there.
No, it's done.
And you don't have a heart inside you how are you staying alive?
They're. Pumping bo the machines are pumping fluid through my body while, while the heart's being switched out., yeah, it's, it's something dude. And so,, yeah, there's literally not very long, but there's a few minutes where I'm sitting on a table with no heart in my body and and then they get Casey's heart wired in.
Yep. And, they reanimate and I've got a pacemaker external one sitting right here that's, that's got wires put into his heart. And then I've got another one on my neck. I got two pacemakers, external ones that,, are keeping it beating to, 'cause it needs to learn how to beat again. 'cause it's been.
Stopped for a while.
Oh, so like they get it going, but then you also have to have the pacemakers
to keep it. Yeah. Everybody wakes up with external pacemakers.
Oh my
goodness. To, to, to train the heart to beat again. And so,, you know, you're strapped down 'cause you're intubated and so there your arms are strapped down.
They tell you all this beforehand so you don't wake up and freak out. But I woke up and freak out anyway. But we had a Handel, my wife and I, and it was this because I knew I wanted to do this, but I couldn't get my hands together. 'cause there was, they were strapped down. Yeah. So it was this. And so I woke up and I did that.
And she started crying and I started crying. And, what did it, that's when I knew how close I was to dying. I woke up and I was like, oh my God, I was gonna die. My brain was awake. I had oxygen going in my brain again, and I was like, Like I felt crappy.
it was, it was like instant that you noticed.
As soon as I woke up, I was like, I feel like crap, but oh my God, there's oxygen in my brain.
I was like, I could feel my feet again, like my hands, everything. I was like numb. I didn't realize how bad I was. I was weeks at most away from death. Like there was, I didn't have much longer,
dude.
I don't know, but she's,
but like you, just from a feel like you've been at the edge of death
intubated and I was like, oh, I was gonna die.
That was the first time that I was like, I am, I was going to die. I was very close. So, recovery is brutal
because, you know, you talk about being an NBA player, like you talk about training for that, you're like running wind sprints and doing like, what is brutal training for heart transplant recovery look like?
Well, I've had lots of surgeries in my life. I've been put asleep a lot. I've fixed a lot of things and orthopedic injuries and all that kind of stuff. I'm getting back surgery next week actually., but the, this was different., you know, you have to watch the physical part of your chest being pulled back together by titanium and there's a plate in there and, and there's wires holding me together and I want it out.
I was like, get me outta here, I wanna go back. 'cause we had an apartment rented and I was like, get me outta here. I'm sick of this hospital food. I want to eat. 'cause I don't have any plumbing problems. So I didn't have to be on a cardiac diet. Like a lot of people are like low sodium and no cholesterol and no fat and the food is bland and all that.
I'm like, I don't have to do that because I don't have plumbing issues. I had electrical issues. I can eat whatever I want. Get me out. I want some Hattie B's if you ever been to Nashville had be. Yeah. So,. They were like, here's the thing, we're gonna check your heart and see if it's beating. So I'm a, I'm still hooked up to everything.
I got towers of drugs and every day another drug would come off. But I mean, I had two towers of drugs and they had what's called a PICC line. I had a wristband around my arm, an armband around my arm with, all these lines kept in order by this armband. And they all funneled into a PICC line, which came into one tube in my neck to give me all these drugs.
And they, they'd have to change out the drugs every once in a while. And some of 'em I'd drop off after a day or so. And so I'm strapped all this. I got the EKG monitor and everything they're seeing if the heart's beating and the pacemakers are making it beat, and they're like, okay, we're gonna check it, see how the heart's doing, see if it's woken up.
And my wife's in the room and I sit up and they turn it down. And I went, oh, room's dark. And I heard the EKG go b Casey's heart didn't wake up. So they said, you can't leave until that heart wakes up. So they, and by the way, they turned it back on, obviously, and my wife would never admit this, and she says, no, that's not what I said.
But she said, I'll, I'll not use the cuss word that she used because I know you don't like using that word on your podcast. But she looked at the doctor after I woke back up. She goes, don't ever effing do that again.
like I said, she loves me.
Yeah.
And so,, that they, they never turned it all the way down again, but then they check it another couple days and they're like, I know you want out of here, but the heart's not waking up. And so they pulled out one of the pacemakers., and then I just had the one in my neck and, they're like, if you want outta here, you gotta get a pacemaker.
And I was like, no, I had a pacemaker and a defibrillator before. And they took that out when I got the transplant. 'cause they were like the new heart. I won't need it. And his heart has never woken up. I have a pacemaker. That was the only way I could get outta the hospital. So I went in and I was, I was livid.
I was so mad. 'cause I was like, no, I wanted this heart to be by itself, but,, it won't be without a pacemaker. So this pacemaker's keeping me alive. I have an app on my phone. It has to stay with me all the time. it constantly updates the, the office or whatever. So if it, if there's an issue or I don't feel well, I can call and they can look at my chart and be like, oh yeah, get in here.
But so far, none of that. I get it checked. I had it checked in October.
Do you feel like your battery changed?
Yeah. Like
how often does
that happen? It, it lasts 11 years. Oh, okay. And it shows me on the app how much lo like, it, it knows it, the battery starts to degenerate or if the wires are not doing well.
So,, but, I got it checked and they turned it down to 30. They don't turn it all the way off. They turn it down to 30. The room gets dark. And I just kinda get tired. The room gets warm and they turn it back up. They go, Nope. So it, at this point, it's been two years. It, it won't wake up. It won't beat on its own.
But,, you know, fun fact that we found out from, my donor family, Casey's family, his wife Pam, and his sister Megan. They were like, well, we were just surprised they could use his heart. And I was like, oh, pray, tell. And they said he, he had to be resuscitated at my house. Like his heart stopped at home and they zapped him.
And then on the way to the hospital, he coded twice. So they were like, we didn't even think his heart would be usable. So it's, it's, it's stopped twice on its own three times maybe, if they're Correct. Yeah. And so it, it, it's not surprising knowing all that, that it wouldn't wake back up. Yeah. And after about six months it, if it hasn't, it's not gonna, so
yeah, well talk about that.
That aspect of, you know, building a relationship with your donor family. And I mean, there's a very moving scene from the E 60 where Casey's wife and sister,
his, sister's husband was there, and their son William, who was at 12 at the time.
Like, they get to listen to
Casey's
heart, Casey's heart beating in your chest.
Yeah. And they're the ones that made the decision for him to be a donor. They said, we think he is, but he wasn't awake, obviously to, to make the decision. So they made the decision, for him to be a donor. And so I owe my life to them, my extended life to them. And so when we got to meet, my, my sister was a lot like my mother.
She still is. We have a wonderful relationship and I, I'm, my sister's never been mean to anybody in her whole life. If anybody's mean to my sister, I will murder them., and so when. Casey's sister is in this room and she's listening to his heart and she puts her hand on my chest and she goes, Hey Bubba, you can see my face in the, in the thing.
But it didn't really capture it like I almost fell down. Like it just, it brought back memories of me and my sister and I just was like, oh my God. She's, she's lost her brother and she's giving me life with it. And she's just saying hi to her little brother that's whose heart is in my chest. And I just, like, I was the vehicle for that emotional moment for her.
And I just, I couldn't process it at the time and I just, all I did was try not to fall down. Yeah. Just to overcome by emotion. 'cause it was just this incredibly powerful moment. And, I was really glad they, they caught it on film. But,, you know, I, like I said, I didn't want to do that movie, but they told a great father son story, between my dad and me, and then me and my son Ozzy.
The football player and he, they, they just, they did a great job. And, and the reason why I'm okay with it is because it's a great tool for people to educate themselves about organ donation.
Yeah.
And both sides of it, you know, the donor family is having the worst day of their life, having to make a decision to end their siblings life, their, their husband's life, because he is not gonna wake up, but they saved five lives in the process and you can save up to eight lives.
But people don't think about, you know, skin donations and cornea has, you know, that doesn't exactly save a life, but it can make somebody's life better.
Yeah.
And,, so that's why, you know, I'm, I, I didn't do it for the fame, I didn't do it for the notoriety. I did it for other people. Yeah. To, to educate people about, you know, that, I've got bonus days.
I don't get paid anymore for any appearances. I do, I just did a Pacer's appearance yesterday., I don't get paid for anything. I just, ask people to donate to my wife's charity. And, so that's, that's my life now. I'm just trying to help other people with whatever day, day I've got left. It's bonus stays at this point.
you know, they don't give me a prognosis. I'm literally the tallest person to ever have a heart transplant. they told me six three was the minimum for my donor. Turns out Casey was five 11, but he was just, he was a big dude. And the heart's huge. Obviously it's working, so I, I don't make complaints, but I, I go, what's my prognosis?
They're like, we just wanna keep this heart beating as long as possible. That's, that's all they say.
Yeah,
because they don't know. Nobody knows. There's no comparing me to anybody else. I'm an interesting case,
an interesting case. How does the mental aspect of a, a transplant, specifically a heart transplant, how did you deal with that?
Because the fact that you are grateful and, you know, your life gets extended, but that comes at others despair.
Yeah, there was, so leading up to it, there was a lot of anxiety and I, they put me on some, uh. Antidepressant for 10 days or so. 'cause I was like watching commercial. I just start crying, you know, like I was just like, this isn't going well.
So yeah, they gave me a little antidepressant in there while I was in the hospital. and I went to counseling and then talked to people and, and so like in counseling, in, in, when you think about, 'cause there might be others out there that are one the side of, you know, donors and like when you go and get your license renewed or whatever, deciding if you wanna be an organ donor and two Yeah.
If you're ever on the receiving end, how you process the fact that for you to continue to get these bonus days that someone had to give up their, their days.
Yep. It's survivor's guilt and it's very real. And went to counseling after transplant for that too. Those first six months I was so sick., again, brain oxygen, singing dumb songs.
Like I'm back to, you know, making up words to songs and tunes and singing to my kids and stuff, but I'm sick. Like, I'm just like flu. Like, it just, I stink and after about six months I go, doc, what is going on? I'm still sick. Like, I thought I was gonna feel better. He goes, you were dying for three years.
Body is recovering from dying for three years. I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
And so then it went back to sports mode, you know, then it was like, oh, I'm still re I'm rehabbing, I'm recovering from surgery.
Yeah.
And so that, that made it a lot easier for me. And then also obviously the drugs coming off.
You know, I started like. Four times a day, over a hundred pills a day and, and little things that I had to put under my tongue and liquid and all this stuff to keep me from getting thrush and, and viral and all these different things. And,, so there's all of that and it comes and it narrows down. And now I only take about 25, 26 pills a day.
Most of 'em in the morning.
Only 25, 26
plus every 12 hours for life, baby. That's my anti-rejection drugs. And then, causes bone density and I've got a left hip now that's starting to lose a little bone density. So I take calcium, I take magnesium,, and their prescription, like I have to take 'em every 12 hours to try to keep fighting that.
So,
yeah., but yeah, it's trading one chronic illness for another. you know, I can't eat certain things now. No raw food, no sashimi 'cause of risk of infection. You know, anybody can get, you know, you eat clams or, or oysters or whatever. Anybody can get food poisoning, but it can put me in the hospital and so it's just not worth it.
It's risk reward at this point.
Yeah.
so I know some people that have had transplants. They're like, oh, I had sushi. I'm like, just. If I'm in Hawaii or, or the Caribbean and I see them catch it, you know, I might risk that, but even then there's just gonna be some risk, you know? Yeah. 'cause it's, it's, you know, being frozen and shipped across the country and all that kind of stuff, it's like,
yeah.
Do you feel a. Responsibility to go out and make the most of this bonus time you've been given?
Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, that I just, my goal now is just help other people.
Yeah., my wife's charity, I go out and give speeches for it and they,
so, and let's dive into what specifically you guys are doing with the charity and how are you making an impact?
So it's called Pearls of Life,, like I said, and, it is to educate people. It's primary mission. It's pearlsoflife.org, if anybody wants to look it up. pearlsoflife.org. And,, it's, mission is to educate people about being a donor, and what it can do, how you can help other people with being a donor.
encouraging people, educating people to, to why, you know, the display dispelling the myths about organ donation. One of the most popular one is they're like, they're not gonna save your life if you're in the hospital. 'cause they want your organs. If you think about that for five seconds, obviously that's pretty silly.
You know, you think a doctor's gonna be like, oh. Well, we could save him, but I want his organs like you'd, you would never have a practice. You'd never practice medicine ever again. And, it's actually a law that if a transplant center is ever found to do something along those lines, not only would the doctor lose their license, the transplant program would be shut down permanently, like hundreds of people would lose their jobs.
So it's, it's not something that anybody would really actually consider., are mistakes made probably. And I, you know, people come up, they're like, oh, this happened in Kentucky in 2021. And I'm like, yeah, it was a test. Like somebody was, saying that somebody told me that something happened in Kentucky in like 2021, where a guy woke up during his heart transplant or something like that.
And it turned out he was comatose and he was in a test. His heart was being tested for potential being a donor, and he woke up.
Wow.
So it wasn't during his transplant, but again, you know, it, there's, there's those myths out there and there's all kinds of things that, that people, so, love going and giving speeches to Carmel High School, talked about it yesterday to elephants, health Yeah.
Downtown. And,, educating people about it. And then also the other part of it is, as I told you, like we thought we were gonna be in Nashville, Tennessee for three days and we ended up being there for three months. we almost had to sell our house just trying to cover kid care,, expenses down there because, you know, they, they have a hospitality.
A lot of the transplant centers have a hospitality room well, so you get a bed, like, that's like if my wife wanted to go sleep in a bed as opposed to the couch, which she never would, she never left my side for 28 days in the hospital. But she had the opportunity. If there's room in the hospitality room, it's like 25 bucks a night, but you share a kitchen with four other rooms.
So that's good if there's like a caregiver. But yeah, if you're a family where your kids gonna sleep.
Yeah,
you know, where, where's your, where her sisters wanted to come be a and help her out and give her a break. And so we ended up renting an apartment across the street from Vanderbilt. And then that's where I ended up moving out from the hospital into that place because again, we were stuck there because I had to go into Vanderbilt every day.
I can't commute to Vanderbilt every day for my testing and all that stuff. It's too much wear and tear. It's four and a half hour drive. So we ended up staying there at this apartment for three months and then they finally were like, okay, you can go home for one weekend. And they got, got to go home for a weekend.
But again, all this costs a lot of money and travel. And then, you know, then after I move outta the apartment, then I'm still going down there every month and I gotta get hotels and gas money and all that stuff. So, the travel expenses built up. And so the other function of Pearls of Life is to help families that have to travel for transplant like we did.
so we've already been able to make some disbursements. We've got a couple others lined up, for, to help others. one family or one man was in Cleveland waiting for his wife. She was, waiting for a kidney transplant and we paid his rent for a while., and then, we've made a donation to the Joe Beretta Foundation, which is in Nashville.
Joe passed away, but his wife runs the foundation and they're building a house to house people that have to be stuck, you know? That's
incredible.
and so it's, it's more geared towards family, as opposed to just like, if it's a couple that have adult children and it's just one of them that needs it and they're not gonna be visiting, you know, like their kids can come get a hotel room.
Right. We're, we're talking more about, you know, maybe your child that's eight years old has three siblings and you have to go to Cleveland and you live in Indiana. You can't commute. Yeah. So we're gonna try to help out families like that, that it's like you kind of have to move to a strange city, or maybe we have to pay your mortgage because you're gonna lose your house because you're not working.
You know, you can't just say, bye mom and one kid and dad has the other kid's home. You know, so that we're trying not to break up families just because one of them needs a transplant. Yeah. And it could be the mother and father too. but we're not trying to focus on any one person. We're just trying to help as many people as possible.
And so that's where, it goes back to I've, I've given speeches at the International Heart and Lung Transplant Association in April of last year. that was a good one. It was talking to the doctors that saved my life and, the people in that field. And so that was fun., but yeah, just here and there, like I've talked to some drug companies that do biopsy, or sorry, do blood tests for rejection.
we're working with them and again, they're just all in, in exchange for my time and travel. They're just making donations to the charity. so that the charity can help other people. we got a golf tournament coming up July 27th. Save the date. It's at Sagamore. Anybody that plays golf, come on down.
We got some former NBA players coming. I'm working on some huge names. Oh,, but I can't say their names because they haven't committed. But Sean Elliott has committed, he's a broadcaster over the San Antonio Spurs. He's had a kidney transplant, played a long time. He's actually 24 years out. I just talked to him the other day.
He committed immediately. He's like, I'm there. So he's gonna play., my former teammate and friend Greg Ostertag from Kansas, he played in the NBA for 13 years after donating a kidney to his sister. So he's on the other side of it. so that, that's two of them right there. And then we have some other, they're superstars that have been touched by transplant in some way.
And I'm, again, I'm not gonna say names until I get 'em to commit, but,, we're working on that. but no matter what, it's gonna be a fun event and Sagamore is a great track. And, we're, we're gonna have a little thing the night before. to, to try to do the, you know, like the business side and solicit donations and all that.
Yeah. And then golf will be fun on Sunday or Monday.
Scott, man, it's been a pleasure to hear your story. I mean, from growing up and making it to the NBA to then this like second campaign of, of trial and tribulation and hard work and effort. A lot of people think, you know, you, you retire from the career and you're like, I'm just chilling, playing golf and pickleball and hanging out and like, your biggest battle was fought well after retirement.
Yeah., you're a testament man. It's, it, it is really, really special. And, you know, Carmel, the state of Indiana, we're lucky to have you here being an advocate for organ donation everywhere. Like, whether it be, you know, obviously you were in Vanderbilt, but I think that's a, an important lesson for, for people that are listening to the show about.
You know, when you select to be an organ donor, that makes a big impact. rounding out. I do wanna talk a few things, Indiana, before you, before we wrap up here.
Absolutely.
First one being, what's your favorite Indiana Pacers moment?
I really enjoyed being teammates with Reggie Miller. learned a lot from him., and I already had a work ethic. but I, it was a my favorite thing 'cause I, you know. Played with Ray Allen, I played with Paige Kovich, Mike Bibby. I played with some great shooters. I know I'm leaving people out. But,, I played with some great shooters and you know, some of 'em were pretty particular about pre-game warmups and stuff, and I always liked to go out and rebound for those guys because I wanted to know where their misses would go so I'd know where to go for a rebound, give myself a little bit of an edge, hopefully.
On figuring out where the ball's gonna go when they miss. And everybody's a little different. Some people Ms. Long, some people Ms. Short typically. And so I would go out and try to rebound for a Reggie. I was like, which ball do you want? He'd say They're all round. And I loved that because that's why it is like, it doesn't matter.
I'm gonna make it. And that that's sick. So that was just a great memory, of being teammates with him. One of the many things that, that I love about that dude, you know, getting to the Eastern Conference finals against Detroit, that that rivalry was just awesome. that was a great a way, like when I played for Detroit, it wasn't that great.
We were the new breed and they had the teal jerseys and it was just, it wasn't a whole lot of Detroit pride., but man, when we were playing for the Pacers and one of the Eastern Conference finals against them, we'd go up there and they had an announcer going Detroit basketball. And the crowd would go nuts.
It was great until that one thing happened, but yeah.
Yeah. To that one thing, when you think about all, like what was the story behind the wild hair and the facial hair and the, and the, I mean, you didn't paint your nails in the NBA, but did you do it in college?
Yeah, I painted my nails in college. I thought it was fun., and then I just got tired of it. But,, you know, first time I dyed my hair was in seventh grade. so it's always been a, you know, it's not like I'd started doing it when I was on tv. It wasn't try to get attention. It was just, I wanted to see what it looked like. so I, I, you know, would shave when I started being able to shave because even in college, like I couldn't grow a mustache like this.
It was always gapped right here, and it was gapped up here and now it's just like, it won't stop. But,, that was basically it. It was just like, I wanna see what it looks like and it's gonna grow back. So I would just grow it out and shave it into something fun. I've done monkey tail.
Just like for the heck of it.
Yeah, just see what it look like and then shave it. Start over., unfortunately the hair on top of my head is, is migrated. So, there you go. I can't grow my hair long anymore on top of my head, but you know, the rest of it, my facial hair still grows, but I had a really long Fu Manchu last year and I got really sick.
I think it was holding bacteria in there, so I'm not keeping long facial hair anymore. I think it was just like holding bacteria and I had to go to the hospital for four days. I say the
facial hair
about
took you out.
I was like, man, it's holding too much bacteria in there. So just in case I, I, I'm keeping my facial hair pretty short.
Do you, do you still like to make it down to Pacers games?
we, I've been to one this year. A friend of mine got tickets. I got, here's the thing, I'm, I'm a basketball fan. I'd be a, an idiot if I didn't appreciate what basketball has done for me in my life and, taken me where I've been taken and where I live today, you know?
but at the same time, I'm not a big fan of the NBA, and I will fully admit that. so I'm not gonna go pay. To ever go to an NBA game. But I have a lot of connections, so I, I'm lucky I get to go for free when I go. this year, I've been, like I said, one game, and it was a friend of mine, it wasn't the Pacers, he had tickets and he was like, Hey, man, you wanna go?
I was like, yeah, let's go. And, had a blast. They're, they're not very good, but,,
but I mean, we, they're building the pieces right, to be, to put something together next year, hopefully
when you're getting fined for tanking. Yeah. You're, you're putting pieces in place. but yeah, I'm not mad at 'em because here's the thing, I I, I always critique the Pacers when I was on the team and, and before and after, after knowing about the Pacers and living here after, you know, they, the, the Simon's curse is that they wanna remain competitive at all times as owners.
And they've done that. They're always competitive. They're always about to make the playoffs, or they make the playoffs. Right. The sacrifice for that is you're gonna get a medium draft pick. You're not gonna get a lottery pick when you're competitive. If you're really bad. You're gonna get a top pick and maybe somebody that can change your franchise because as a small market team, and I've played for several,, you're not gonna get superstars that want to come play in Sacramento, in Cleveland, in, you know, Indiana.
So you have to get a draft pick and get lucky like San Antonio did with Tim Duncan and now they got Wemby. You have to get lucky with somebody that's gonna wanna stay, even though they're a transitional player that's like gonna take your franchise to a new level. And the Pacers just haven't had that.
So, like I said, it's a Simon's curse that they want to make, make sure they're competitive and they do that for the most part. But this year maybe they can use this draft pick whatever they get to get somewhere where they haven't been before. Yeah. Or you know, they were there last year, but it, but to the top of that, it's always, it's always tough.
Yeah. It's always tough when you're a small market team to compete. 'cause you either gotta blow the cap, you can't. And nobody can afford to do that in a small market.
Yeah. 'cause no one is just like. You know, like the biggest stars, like LeBron James when he was leaving Cleveland was not like, you know where I'm going, Indianapolis.
Yeah, exactly. Let's fire up. You know, I'm a free agent. I've always wanted to live in Indiana, you know? That's true. And or Cleveland. He left Cleveland. He is from there. Yeah.
You know,
that's a small market too,
so, yeah. Okay. These are the final three questions that we ask every guest who comes on the show.
Obviously, you've played all over the country, you know, from the west coast, spent time in Kansas, now you're in Indiana. What's something the world needs to know about Indiana?
It's not the Midwest. We're in the Eastern time zone, but it's like the Midwest.
There we go.
The weather sucks, but the people are really cool.
Yeah. Okay. this is the part where we get to learn about another spot across the state. That, that you like a place, could be in your backyard, could be anywhere. What's a hidden gem in Indiana?
I'm a big fan of Bonge's. I, I, I love that place.
Yep. In Perkinsville.
Yep. I haven't been there for a while. They, they've changed ownership and I just, I just, you know, it's far away.
I, I don't leave the roundabouts very much. I live in Carmel and I love it. But,, I love that place and, you know, there's been places, that pop up here and there that, that are just, they're fun. And that's the cool thing again, about Indiana that a lot of people don't know is. it's, it's growing. It's changing.
Yeah.
And with that comes new food, restaurants and new things to do, you know, continues to surprise in that. Yeah, we're not in the Midwest, but it's very Midwest, like, yeah. When people are nice and the weather is crappy, but
okay. Finally, who's the Hoosier? We need to keep on our radar. Someone who's doing big things,
Dawn Pollard.
Oh yeah.
She's, if you're lucky enough to be represented by her when buying or selling a home, you're, you're in a select crowd. she gets a ton of referrals. She's got an office right there in the middle of the village of West Clay, but she works all over the state., yeah. Not all over the state, but all over the, you know, the area, the metropolitan area.
Jennifer Magley. She's the reason I'm on the show. Yeah. She's all over the place. Her and her, her and my dad. Her dad and me. He's a Jay Hawk. He was Mr. Basketball in Indiana.
Yeah.
when he was in
high school. Yeah. Up in South Bend.
Yep. I love And Jen Magley, she's all over the place. She's Mc, she's mcd my wife's charity gig last year, the, the gala.
She did an incredible job doing that. And then she introduced me to you. That's why I'm here. Yeah.
Scott, man, I appreciate you coming on the show, giving us some time today, your journey. It's, it's incredible. You talk about from Utah out to the west coast and then, you know, Kansas, Detroit, Sacramento, Indianapolis, what?
Cleveland and Boston.
Yeah.
And then Nashville obviously, you know, a large part of, like a large moment in your life happened down there. You've been all over.
Yeah.. It's, it's gonna be cool one, I gotta follow the Rainbow Warriors now let's go. Yeah.
Yeah.
And two man, just your down-to-earthness. You know, I think that that's something that when people meet, whether it be NBA Stars or NFL Stars or whoever it could be, they start to get like, I don't know, like they're not living in the same world.
And then clearly, you know, sitting here talking for almost two hours now you live in the same world that we're living in. And, and man, you're just a testament so inspirational and yeah, that should be everyone's kind of calling card to go and, become an organ donor.
Yeah, go to pearlsoflife.org.
We're gonna do a golf tournament and then we're gonna do some more stuff. But yeah, dude, I'm, I'm on bonus days. I don't know when it's gonna be now. there there'll be something and so, I'm just gonna keep on keeping on and, and, telling my story and, and trying to help other people while I got time.
Amazing man. Well we appreciate you stopping by. We'll talk soon.
Alright, thanks Nate.
