The Man Behind $2 Billion in Motorsports Deals

Wes Zerkle: He took time out of his day and wasted his air to insult you to your face. That means you pissed him off and he respects you. Enough like- I'm like, "

Nate Spangle: Okay. All right." The owner of DreamWorks calls- Mm-hmm... the CEO of IndyCar- Mm-hmm... says, "I got an idea. A movie about a snail who wins the Indy 500." That's right.

And that ends up being Turbo. They're

Wes Zerkle: trying to fundraise for him and not enough time being a lawyer. Yeah. I really, really believed in him. Then what does the work that you're doing actually

Nate Spangle: look like? Okay. How do I explain this to people? Yeah.

Wes Zerkle: Gosh.

Nate Spangle: From South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between, this is Get IN, the show focused on the Hoosier State and the incredible stories happening here today.

I'm Nate Spangle, founder of Get Indiana, and I will be your host for today's conversation. My guest today is Wes Zerkle, and he is the founder of Zerkle Advisors and serves as outside general counsel for companies, athletes, and motorsports organizations. He started his own firm after a 17-year in-house career that included representing iconic celebrity estates and leading legal strategy for the world's largest motorsports marketing agency.

He has negotiated nearly $2 billion in sponsorship deals and advised across every major league and racing series, while also building a reputation as an expert in the NIL and sports business law space. Based in Indiana, Wes continues to shape the business of racing and sports from the center of one of the world's most influential motorsports ecosystems.

I'm really excited. I got a list of some of the fun stories that Wes has accumulated over the years, and there are some absolute gems here. Wes, welcome to the show. I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Of course, man. I mean, I believe we got introduced from Wortman, right? That's right. Yes.

Wortman said, "This is one of Indiana's best-kept secrets. You need to know Wes and what he's doing in the motorsport space." And from our first call where I ever, like, got introduced to you- Mm-hmm... and I was hooked. I'm like, one, a guy from Warsaw- That's right... which I love, you know, 15 minutes from my hometown.

I grew up in Bourbon. Oh, that's right. South Fort. So, so just down the street. Two, the stories that you had in, again, we talked for like 15 minutes, the stories you were sharing about motorsports- Mm-hmm... and the things you've been able to do, crazy. I think this will be a fun episode for people. You know, maybe there's someone who's studying law in your life and is like, "Okay, I can't wait to go, you know, climb the corporate ladder, be a lawyer, bill my hours-" Mm-hmm

XYZ thing. And, like, this is a, almost a, a revelation of wow, wait, there's a fun, interesting, dynamic industry- Mm-hmm... I can take my law degree and put it to use. I mean, where, where was your first dip into motorsports? It would've

Wes Zerkle: been at CMG Worldwide. Okay. Uh, so... And I was... Listen, f- back up. So i- for those of you who think about being a lawyer, um, I did law school all wrong.

I did it all wrong. Okay. But that's what opened the path for me to become the type of lawyer I, I am today. I didn't do moot court. I was asked, "Hey, you should write law review." Not interested. Okay. My first year of law school, I coached Wabash College's rowing team. The second year, I was managing a buddy's band.

Terribly. I mean, actually, it was a hair band. I actually, uh, booked them in a coffee shop by accident. So, but that's - No way. Terrible. Yeah. But, uh, but that's the path that put me on this sport and entertainment route. I interviewed at CMG Worldwide to become a law clerk, and it just happened. The general counsel is a former professional musician, and he's a very fascinating guy as well, Jonathan Faber, probably a Hoosier you should know.

But he was gonna be a, you know, a rock and roll star and, you know, he had his path and then, uh, he was a hair band, and then Nirvana came out, and that's his story. But, you know, but he, you know, I took my experiences and got hired in an entertainment agency.

Nate Spangle: Wait, so you were going through law school- Mm-hmm

you go in for a legal clerk job- Mm-hmm... and all of a sudden you end up talking about your experience- That's correct... managing a hair band. That's exactly

Wes Zerkle: right.

Nate Spangle: No way. That's exactly right. Did you mention the part that you booked them

Wes Zerkle: at a coffee shop on accident? I absolutely did. Hey, ab- And he thought it was hysterical.

'Cause every musician has bad gigs, you know? And, and I wasn't good at it, but I was interested.

Nate Spangle: Yeah. And so that, that- And you were interesting because it's different than what every other lawyer does. Right. Every other person who applies for that job comes in and is probably like, "Yes, I did this and I did the legal things."

Yeah. And you're like, "Yeah, I managed a, a band and- That's right... and I got my... I, I have some entertainment experience." Right. That's w-

Wes Zerkle: Well, what I didn't know at that young age is that to be useful, you have to have the experience. You have to understand how the business works. Yeah. And even though I couldn't articulate it then, I'm like, "Oh, I got this job because I had worked a little bit in the music industry."

Oh, how neat. So, so that got me in to, to CMG. But you asked specifically how I got into motorsports is, is, uh, I think my first ever motorsports deal was the, uh, the Aerosmith car in the Indy 500 in 2001. And I don't know what came first, the, the, the car or, or Steven Tyler singing the national anthem. I think he was already booked to do the national anthem, which is what gave our marketing team the idea.

But, uh, we're at CMG representing a, a, a team, trying to find them sponsorships, which is, everybody wants sponsors. Yeah. Okay, so you were... What was CMG? So CMG Worldwide is a celebrity licensing agency, a brand licensing agency. Okay. And it's where I got the enormous opportunity to work for, you know, the estates of Marilyn Monroe and James Dean and, and Babe Ruth and, and, uh, and, and we are also the licensing agent for Evernham Motorsports.

Okay, wait. Mm-hmm. So say,

Nate Spangle: so explain to us norm- Us, uh, maybe not educated on that. Sure. How does that work? You are a li- a celebrity licensing agency.

Wes Zerkle: That's correct.

Nate Spangle: So you help bring together celebrities and- Brands... brands-

Wes Zerkle: Brands and products... and put that together. Yeah. So people always say, "How is a celebrity licensing agency in Indiana?"

Well, the answer is because we have the strongest laws in the country that protect dead celebrities. And so if you're, um, if you can a- a- avail yourself of the law of Indiana, typically by being a domicile or having your estate probated or whatever those... I won't get into legal nuances-... then, then Indiana has a very broad, uh, based law that protects many aspects of a, of a person's identity during life and afterwards, and in fact for 100 years after their death.

So when we worked for the estates of, you know, Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, what have you back then, we could license those properties on products, have a legal basis for saying you need a license, and that's what I did. In fact, one of the fun things about my job was I, I was in charge of infringements. And so whenever somebody did something and they did s- they weren't licensed to do an ad or a product, I led the group of people that went after them.

Uh, but what we'd usually try to do is turn it into a deal. It's like, "Hey, if, if you liked, you know, our client enough to create these posters or what have you, let's get them licensed, and show you the value of working directly with the agency and the estate. You can get a better product, better distribution, better marketing."

And, and that was a lot of fun to do that. So, so in a nutshell, yeah, I mean, because we're in Indiana, these celebrities have a lot of, of rights that aren't available to them elsewhere in the country.

Nate Spangle: Wow. Well, who benefits? Someone like, like Marilyn Monroe's estate. Mm-hmm. She died in 1962. Mm-hmm. Who benefits from that today?

Wes Zerkle: Uh, well, Marilyn's a long story I don't need to get into now, but, but essentially the, uh, in, in case her estate was, uh, her acting coach's daughter. She, she gave her, her rights to, well, essentially everything that was not property was to, went to Lee Strasberg, her acting coach, and so he got all of her intellectual property rights, which eventually descended down to his daughter.

Nate Spangle: No way. Yeah, yeah. And does that mean then in 1962 after the 100 years is up, then anyone can use... Yes. Wow. That, that's a business idea. There you go. For like 100 years when celebrities pass away, then you can start, like, monetizing their rights. That's right. That's right. That's kind of morbid, but you know.

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, a little bit. So you were doing that for the estate of Marilyn Monroe and the estate of James Dean? Dean,

Wes Zerkle: and lots of... We had represented like 110 different celebrity estates.

Nate Spangle: Okay. So you're in the celebrity business. Yes. Aerosmith, you know, Steven Tyler gets booked- Mm-hmm... to sing the national anthem.

Had to be electric. Right. Like just, had to be a wild- Amazing. Yeah. And you're like, you know... And then did you also represent a car that needed- a

Wes Zerkle: livery? That's exactly right. So we had a team that re- retained us to go find sponsorship, and, uh, honestly it's hard to sell, especially when you have this was not a full-time entry You know, they were coming up, trying to make the race.

And, and so- And especially, this is the early 2000s? That's right, 2001. So it's like you didn't

Nate Spangle: get the extra b- Like, we have Conor Daly, who's been on the show. Mm-hmm. It's like he race, he's racing the 500 this year. Mm-hmm. But he also has, like, a social media brand. That's right. And like, you know, if you are his sponsor, you're r- you're sponsoring for the 500, but you also probably get some, some, like, bonus kickbacks- Mm-hmm

in the media piece. That's right. This is 2004. Like, you know, people would be looking at the, the car, but that's about it.

Wes Zerkle: That's about it. Or y- t- traditional activations, you know, whether it be print ads or whatever. Yeah. Advertising was different back then. So we were, so we were having trouble selling this.

And so our marketing guy, it's like, had this idea, like, "Listen, okay, we're probably not gonna sell the primary. I know a guy connected to Aerosmith. I understand they're, they're launching a new album. Let me get ahold of him." And, and they loved it. And so what we ended up doing was making that car the Aerosmith car.

We gave the livery the primary for free.

Nate Spangle: And, like, in 2004, what are you- 2001, to be clear. Oh, sorry, 2001. That's all right. Okay, so it's 2001. 2001, what is a primary spot on a livery at the Indy 500? Oh. Go for it. Uh, you're

Wes Zerkle: like 800 grand.

Nate Spangle: You gave Aerosmith 800 grand for free?

Wes Zerkle: Potentially, yeah. But here's why.

We got every associate to sign. Every other sponsor then that we were pitching wanted to be on the Aerosmith car. Yeah. So you could, so you could hold out. And the thing is, the closer you get to the race, that value drops, 'cause they know you're desperate. And so, well, why take a declining value if we could, you know, put that sponsorship on the car, not only attract our associates, but suddenly have the coolest car at the race everybody wants to be around.

And sure enough, that's exactly what happened, because Aerosmith was there.

Nate Spangle: Yeah, and it's like, did, were you able to maybe, like, uh, finesse a few activations with the, the band or, like, you know, get them involved at all?

Wes Zerkle: Well, they were involved with the track. Yeah. But that's, that's as far as it went. Yeah.

They, they use it as a big publicity moment for their, their album, Just Push Play, which was very p- is pink and yellow, and so it made for an incredible looking car.

Nate Spangle: Yeah.

Wes Zerkle: I encourage you to Google this car. It was so cool. Really, really cool car, and a, and a, and a cool experience. And if, if, I don't know if many people remember this, this race, if you're an old guy like me, but, um, people got upset with Steven Tyler because he fi- he sang the national anthem and finished it with, "Land of the free, home of the Indy 500." And some people thought that was amazing, and some people were really upset that he changed the words of the national anthem. But in his typical style, he made it an event. Very,

Nate Spangle: very cool. The Aerosmith car. Mm-hmm. I can just, like, see, like, 'cause last year there was a Creed car. That's right. And it was, like, it was so funny, uh, to see, like, the videos of it driving by, and they'd have, like, a song playing.

And it's like, oh yeah- Yeah... that's, that's what the Aerosmith car sounds like. Yeah,

Wes Zerkle: yeah.

Nate Spangle: Okay, so that was your first dip in the motorsports. That was my

Wes Zerkle: fir- my first deal, and I wish I hadn't, 'cause I'm sure it was awful. I had no idea what I was doing. I had zero idea. I was like- Yeah... gosh, I was a baby lawyer.

I'd maybe been a lawyer for a year. If that. I mean, you're- That was in 2001. I mean, that long...

Nate Spangle: dipping your toes in, but what a fun deal to get to work on. That's right. And from there, then how did you continue to get ingrained into motorsports?

Wes Zerkle: I started to develop this, this interest in it, and I said, that guy that put that Aerosmith deal together, he knew, uh, some guy, this guy named, uh, Zak Brown, not the musician.

Nate Spangle: So wait, hold on. The guy who's like, "I know some people at Aerosmith." Yeah, the guy in our- He worked within CMG? He

Wes Zerkle: worked within CMG. Okay. Okay? And, and so he's a really cool guy, but he actually tried to get me, uh, to go, uh, in-house at Evernham Motorsport. And Ray Evernham at that time was interested, but he decided that he really liked his lawyer, um, a guy named Stoke Caldwell in Charlotte, which is funny 'cause now Stoke Caldwell and I are very good friends.

Oh, okay. Um, and we've known each other for years. So, so Ray took a pass on me, and then, um, this guy from CMG, he went to go work for JMI, Zak Brown. So it was then called Just Marketing Inc., which is an awful name, and Zak would admit that. But w- he went to go work for Just Marketing, and, uh, uh, that business was starting to grow.

And so, you know, Bill kept saying, "Zak, I got a lawyer, I got a lawyer, I got a lawyer." So he, he reached out to me and said, "I need you to go get ahold of Zak Brown," and gave me his phone number, and I chased him down like a dog. 'Cause I know now in hindsight the last person Zak Brown wants to talk to is a lawyer.

But I just, I just chased him and chased him and chased him. Hey, for

Nate Spangle: anyone that's not a diehard motorsports fan, like, can you give us- Yes... who is Zak Brown? So

Wes Zerkle: I said it's not the musician. Um, Zak is now the CEO of McLaren Racing Limited, which owns, runs all of McLaren's racing programs, including IndyCar.

So Zak sits over that now. So he's primarily in F1, but they, they race a lot of different series.

Nate Spangle: Yeah, so like, I mean, we've had, uh, Pato O'Ward. Mm-hmm. We've had Christian Lundgaard. Like, those are both- Zak is their boss... uh, Arrow McLaren drivers- That's right... that are, r- kind of report up through the chain to Zak.

That's right. That's exactly right. And, but he, before he got that gig, he was running JMI. An

Wes Zerkle: agency. Just Marketing Inc.? Zak was a racer. He was a race car driver. And, and I'm gonna mess up his story, but i- in, in, in, in a nutshell, he was, uh, one of the few people that really had sponsorship back then and, and was able to fund his, his junior formula rides and stuff with actual sponsorship.

And, and so he, uh, was in an accident, hurt himself, and wasn't able to drive, and so he was able to offload his sponsorship and make money. And then he continued to walk around the paddock and make money for guys. And so now he's, like, doing little marketing pieces for his friends while he's sidelined, and he created, uh, f- uh, incorporated JMI in, uh, February of 1995.

Something only his former corporate lawyer would know, you know? So he formed that in '95 and started doing deals.

Nate Spangle: So it's like, okay, he knows racers that- Mm-hmm... get eyeballs on things. Mm-hmm. And then he just has to make relationship with the brands- Mm-hmm... and say, "Hey, like, do you want a spot on Pato's livery?"

Yep. Like, we'll make that happen. Yeah, right, exactly. And then he's like, "I'll just take 5%, 10%," whatever the cut is there in the

Wes Zerkle: middle. Well, there's, there's a couple different mo- models. So one is absolutely the, the, the commission model, which is a, which is a fair one because it is very difficult to find these deals.

It takes a lot of time, a lot of money. And so agencies are often compensated with commission based on the value of the deal. And then there's the activation side. And so what he did was built the biggest activation agency in the world that was the... I mean, you're talking if you needed a, a four-semi program that created an experiential, you know, walkthrough at a track, we would design it, we'd work with the companies, we'd have it built, and then we'd, we had the staff that ran it all and that hired the models and made sure everything worked.

That's, that was the old, the old school motorsports activation. Um, big, expensive experiential pieces, and we did all of that, and eventually that kind of changed into social media. But what we did, in a nutshell, was ensured that sponsors got the value of their sponsorship. Sponsors go into racing, they're trying to achieve a marketing goal.

Whatever those goals are, it's up to us to help them achieve those goals. Yeah. And so that's what Zach's agency did.

Nate Spangle: Okay, that makes sense. So w- what, what was the size of the company when you joined?

Wes Zerkle: Oh, when I joined I was the, I believe I was the 20th employee in the company's history. Oh, wow. But there wasn't 20 of us in the building at that point.

Okay. And it's funny, 'cause I-- CMG at the time was this beautiful, like, beautiful office, glass everywhere. I had a corner office. I had celebrity memorabilia all around me. It was amazing. Back then, JMI was in basically a warehouse on Georgetown Road- No way... on the, on the west side. And I walked in the first day, like, wearing a suit, and everybody else was, like, wearing, like, sweatshirts and I'm like, "Oh God, I made a terrible mistake."

What have I- I had no idea, right? What have I done? What have I done? And my office was in the back by the warehouse doors, so when some- somebody opened the door, my office got cold, and, um, you know, clearly I made the right decision. But back in the days, JMI was very grassroots, and we were, uh, we were hustlers and just didn't take anything for granted.

We all worked really, really hard to grow that business- Wow... with Zach.

Nate Spangle: Yeah. And how long

Wes Zerkle: did

Nate Spangle: you

Wes Zerkle: end up staying there? 12 years.

Nate Spangle: 12 years. Mm-hmm. So what did your j- as a lawyer, what was your, what was your job? So- What did you

Wes Zerkle: have to do? Yeah, so when we were small, I handled everything, and then we started to grow, um, and we s- you know, became international.

So I'd open international offices and, and help over- oversee all the legal aspects of that, whether it be getting buildings and hiring employees and, and managing all of that. Um, but eventually, it's funny, I still remember there was a day that Zach, uh, knocked on my door. He's like, "Hey, I want you to join us in a leadership team meeting."

I'm like, "Sure." So I went in there, and then after the meeting he goes, "Why don't you just plan on coming to those from here on out?" And so, and then shortly thereafter he made me executive vice president, which was like, "Okay, I guess now he likes me." You know? And, and so I was so... I mention that because then it became very much about growing the business, and that was the greatest, like, in hindsight, one of the best experiences of my professional life, um, was being in the boardroom and learning how businesses work.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, so I mean, it was just invaluable.

Nate Spangle: Yeah, and it's like while you're doing this and, and all your other law school buddies are, like, you know, billing their hours or- Mm-hmm... trying to become partner- Mm-hmm... like doing their own- Mm-hmm... version of it. Mm-hmm. Were they looking down on you?

Or were they like, "Man, you're so lucky. That's so cool"? I, it, they all looked at me and went, "How did you score that gig?"

Wes Zerkle: Wow. Yeah, yeah. And, and, like, what do you think the secret wa- just- Well, I always say you should put yourself in a position to be lucky. Yes, you have to get lucky. The right opportunities, everything has to align at the right time.

But I still look back and go, if I hadn't managed that band, I would have not been in the position- Yeah... to be referred to Zak Brown for a job. So y- you know, I was just doing my authentic thing through law school and into my career, and I, it didn't occur to me that I should be in a firm billing hours.

Nate Spangle: Yeah.

Wes Zerkle: I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'll do this in-house gig, then I'll do this other in-house gig, and that'll be, that'll be fun, a, a good, good way to make a living."

Nate Spangle: Well, one of the interesting pieces is that while working at JMI, that job took you everywhere, all over the world. Mm-hmm. To, you know, you know, foreign countries and foreign racetracks.

Yeah,

Wes Zerkle: yep,

Nate Spangle: yep. And, I mean, there's... Were you guys working with F1? Oh, yeah. Quite a bit. So, like, y- I mean, I remember you end up meeting the guy who's pretty popular right now if you've seen any of the... Like Acquired did a whole deep dive onto F1. Mm-hmm. And it's the, it's Bernie, right? Oh, Bernie Ecclestone.

Bernie Ecclestone, who was like the old school de facto, like, owner of Formula 1. That's right. Kind of a, I mean, I think he's been indicted or, like,

Wes Zerkle: his- He had been at one

Nate Spangle: time, yeah. Yeah. Like, I think that there's, like, some questions and, and there's just a lot of haze and some smog- Yeah... that fo- fo- follows, uh, Bernie around.

But at the time he was, like, the guy who ran F1. That's exactly right. You what? You're over at, what is it? Uh, at

Wes Zerkle: the Monza GP? I, yeah, so I was in Italy, yeah. So I, I, this was 2011, and, and just a crazy, crazy trip for a lot of reasons. But to give you some, some context, um, at that time, JMI, we, we were now the, the agency, and Zach was, was very powerful, uh, and did big deals.

And we had three of the five global partners of Formula 1. And so we had done- What does that mean? And so a global partner is a naming rights partner for F1. So Johnnie Walker was the official whiskey of Formula 1. And then, you know, LG became the official, you know, consumer electronics brand of Formula 1.

And then we had UBS as the official financial services provider or something to that effect. Yeah. Right? So it goes league-wide, not just for a team.

Nate Spangle: So this would be like Lilly on the Olympics right now. Yeah, exactly right. You know, like you see Lilly everywhere when it comes to Olympics. That's exactly right.

And when you say, "We had them," like they were your cust- your, they were your client. That's right. Those were our clients, yes. And you're making sure they get all the value that they're supposed to- Exactly... from

Wes Zerkle: Formula 1. That's exactly, like, yeah. We're, we're coordinating everything and, and making sure that their marketing team understands what's happening.

They're getting what they need to do their thing on their end, you know. And so we're coordinating a lot of these pieces. So as background, yes, we got paid commissions, 'cause I said these are difficult deals to do. They take years to put together. And, and so the commission is where you finally, finally get paid.

So the first deal, you know, we do this, no big deal, and then Bernie jams a bunch of costs into the program. I'm like, "What's... We send him an invoice." He's like, "I'm not paying that. Like, all these costs." We're like, "Oh my gosh," right? So Zach has to go and negotiate with Bernie. "All right, fine. Get, okay, get these costs."

Zach comes back. "Wes, fix that for next time." Probably didn't say it that nice. But, and so the next time was LG, and I, I fixed that whole, uh, uh, expense thing, and we addressed that issue. And then, uh, we, we do the deal. It went great. And then we do another deal, and we added, I think it was, uh, LG to the start lights.

You know, in F1, it's like red, red, red, red, green, and they all go. Well, we had LG on top of those start lights. And we sent an invoice over to F1, and Bernie's like, "This isn't commissionable." Like, "What, what do you mean?" He's like, "This is part of our deal." "Well, no, this is a supplemental deal." "Sorry, what? He's playing games with us."

All right, fine. So Zach has to go back and negotiate this. Well, we get included. Okay. Zach comes back. "Wes, fix this." Okay, so I write this commission agreement that is so tight, and then we get to UBS. We got paid everything we expected to be paid. This thing was ironclad. I told you that so I could tell you this.

I'm in Monza in 2011, and I'm with my, my, my company mentor, uh, uh, John Hogan, who sadly passed away during COVID, but he's a legend in Formula 1. He put Marlboro into racing. Oh, wow. Yeah. He's the reason James Hunt had a ride back in the day. And so John's taking me around, introducing me to folks, and we're in McLaren's hospitality center, uh, which is three stories.

Keep in mind, this thing's a mobile unit, and it's three stories. First floor is VIP, there's a second floor is offices, and the third floor is like a dance club/bar. And so- What,

Nate Spangle: what floor were you on? Speaker: I was on the second floor- Oh, okay... with the offices. I didn't know if we were popping over to the third.

Oh, no. You know? Yeah. It was, it was still empty at that point. Yeah, yeah. Little too early in the day. But I was on the offices and, uh, you know, this is, for those of you big race fans, this is after Spygate, so Ron Dennis was no longer officially, technically running the team, and Martin Whitmarsh was. And, and so I'm up there, and Bernie comes up to meet with Martin, and they go meet, and 20 minutes later, Bernie comes out.

And my colleague, John, whistles at Bernie and motions for him to come over, which... And John's probably one of the few people on earth that could pull that off, 'cause Bernie's not a soft, touchy-feely guy, okay? John motions Bernie over. "John, my friend, my friend, good to see you." "Oh, Bernie, so, hey, I wanted to introduce you to, uh, Wes, our lawyer from America, because I know you've done some deals with him, and your people have done some deals with him.

I just thought you guys should finally know each other." And Bernie shakes my hand, looks me straight in the eye and says, "You know what the problem is? Too many Americans, too many lawyers. Have a good day." And he turns around and leaves. Okay, I'm Indiana, right? I'm expecting, "Nice to meet you," blah, blah. No, none of that.

I was just... I just stood there like an idiot-... with my mouth open, 'cause I'm like, "What do I do now?" Of course, it wasn't until he hits the door on the other side where I'm like, the comeback is, "Mr. Ecclestone, you say that until you need an American lawyer," but it came 10 seconds later, and by then it's, you know

Yeah, too late. It's too late, so I'm just the idiot that just stood there quiet in front of Bernie while he insulted me. Yeah. But the cool thing was, is I, I commented to John, I'm like, "Well, that was weird." And he goes, "Oh, no, that was great." I'm like, "What do you mean that was great?" He goes, "Wes, he respects you."

I'm like, "He does?" Like, "He took time out of his day and wasted his air to insult you to your face." "That means you pissed him off, and he respects you." I love it. And I'm like, "

Nate Spangle: Okay. All right." I mean, that's what you want from, like, the lawyer on the opposite side- Yeah... of the table is like, oh- Uh... he's, he's giving you your, your kudos.

Wes Zerkle: That's right. So, yeah- Wow... that was m- that was my, my one and only, uh, direct interaction with Bernie.

Nate Spangle: That's a wild one. I ma- 'cause I'm sure he walks all over whoever it was, you know? Oh, totally. And like, "Oh, yeah, you think you're getting a million bucks? You're actually getting 250,000."

Wes Zerkle: Like- Yeah,

Nate Spangle: but, but

Wes Zerkle: there's other crazy things that trip...

That, that trip was nuts because, uh, for your F1 people out there, like, I'm up there at one point, I see some guy, like, wearing plaid pants and a plaid hat. I'm like, "Oh, that, that outfit's awesome." Blah, blah, blah. And John's like, "Oh, yeah, well, they..." You know, so he takes me down, introduces me to this guy. It's Sir Jackie Stewart.

And I'm like, "Oh, you gotta be kidding." I did not... Of course, Jackie's this, you know... My f- and John's like, "Oh, my friend Wes, he loves your outfits." He's like, "Oh, you got... I'll get a pair for you. I got some in my, in my trailer. I got another whole set," and goes... He's doing this whole thing, and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is, this is Jackie Stewart.

This is crazy."

Nate Spangle: That's

Wes Zerkle: crazy. But then on the way home This is the crazy thing. You mentioned Conor Daly. He's in this story. So we fly... Uh, so I should say, at this trip, I ran into, ran- ran in Bernie, uh, uh, Randy Bernard, who was then the CEO of IndyCar.

Nate Spangle: When, when was this? What year? This was 2011.

Wes Zerkle: So

Nate Spangle: this is 20...

So Conor's probably like a little kid.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah, he was driving F3 or 2- Okay... at this point. I can't remember which one it was. I think it was for Lotus.

Nate Spangle: Okay.

Wes Zerkle: So he was, he was in Italy for, for racing, and, you know, I was there, and Randy was there for business, and so we all, we're on the same airplane coming home.

And, uh, so we landed at JFK, and there's, like, a... Suddenly our flight back to Indy gets delayed. Randy was nice enough. Like, he waited for m- me and Conor to get through, like, international security, and he goes, "Hey, guys, we got a big delay. Why don't you come hang out with me in, in, in the Delta lounge? I- We'll just relax."

I'm like, "Oh, okay, cool." So we're just hanging out, whatever, talking and kind of working and whatever and, and then Randy gets a phone call. He said, "Oh, I'm sorry, guys. Hold on. I need to take this." And he's, he's talking on the phone, and he's like, "Okay, yeah, that sounds really interesting," blah, blah, blah. And it's maybe, I don't know, five or so minute phone call, and he hangs up and he goes, uh, "That was Jeffrey Katzenberg.

Um, he wants to make a movie about a snail that races in the Indy 500." Turbo. That was Turbo.

Nate Spangle: No way.

Wes Zerkle: I was there. Wait, who's

Jeffrey Katzenberg?

Katzenberg. Well, you ever heard of DreamWorks SKG? Oh. He's the K.

Nate Spangle: No way.

Wes Zerkle: It's

Spielberg, Katzenberg, Geffen.

Nate Spangle: So the DreamWorks, the executive from DreamWorks calls- The owner of DreamWorks

the owner of DreamWorks calls- the CEO of IndyCar- and says, "I got an idea."

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm.

Nate Spangle: A movie about a snail who wins the Indy 500. That's right. And that- And I was there... and that ends up being Turbo.

Wes Zerkle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Randy's like, "Well, sounds cool. I'm... Yeah." You know what I mean? He literally said, "I thought he was gonna ask for a political donation."

Nate Spangle: I thought- He had no idea... I thought he was gonna ask for a political donation. That, that's right. That's

Wes Zerkle: right.

Nate Spangle: No way. Yeah. And that's, that circle, see how young- And wait, and that's 2011. When did, when did Turbo come out? Oh, gosh, I'd have to go look. 2013, two years later. Two years later, boom. That was the...

He had never heard anything about that movie before.

Wes Zerkle: Nope.

Nate Spangle: You were there when it got pitched- and then it ends up becoming a movie. That's right. That's so crazy.

Wes Zerkle: That's

crazy. So that, that, that i- that Italy trip was nuts on a lot of levels.

Nate Spangle: And I mean, it seems like you had a pretty great gig. Why did you guys end...

I mean, what ends up happening with JMI? Hmm. Obviously, Zach's no longer there. Mm-hmm. You're no longer- Mm-hmm... what ends up happening?

Wes Zerkle: Well, so we had taken on private equity investment in 2008, which was a actually surprisingly good experience. We learned a lot, and that's where I said I learned a lot in the boardroom from these guys.

Um, but you know, private equity has a, has a shelf life. And, um, they bought us. I mean, it's like Zach had a crystal ball. He, he sold the company June 4th, 2008. I remember it like a kid's birthday 'cause it was such a difficult deal to get done. So that was the closing date. Yeah, y- 2008, um, the following November is when the Great Recession started.

Like from June to November? That's right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So he got top dollar for his company, and now we're like, "Okay, we gotta build this thing." So, you know, we were able to build this and grow this company 2.5X during the Great Recession, which was pretty incredible. They wanted a 3X return, but A, why not, you know, recession was what it, what it was.

We did pretty good. So after five and a half years they sold us, and we were sold to, um, well, essentially what is now CSM, which is a big sports marketing agency. But honestly, I was there about three years and I'm like, "This is not fun." You know? It's like it was a publicly traded company that owned them, and we had already been through private equity and, and, and we had squeezed that, that rock dry.

And so now we're owned by a public company that says, "Hey, we know we approved your plan, but now could you bring those numbers forward a, a, you know, a, a month so we could capture it?" It's like, "Oh, no. Thank you." So I actually did leave. I, after, I left in 2016 and, and, uh, decided, okay, well let's figure out what our new adventure is.

So, so the long story is that, you know, Zach worked out his contract and then he obviously then went to McLaren and, and, uh, we all kind of went our, our separate ways after the acquisition.

Nate Spangle: Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. You know? And w- that is an interesting piece, the, when you do, you know, take on private equity investment, there's a shelf life.

There is to. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, it's grow and move onto the next thing. The,

Wes Zerkle: the company will change. Yeah. There's no stopping it. It will change.

Nate Spangle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so w- what new opportunity do you end up pursuing

Wes Zerkle: after you leave? Yeah, so I, I had a short stint at an, at an agency and it wasn't, it didn't quite feel right, so my wife was like, "Why don't you go be a lawyer?"

And I laughed, I was like, "I haven't been a lawyer my entire career." It, you know, I was, it's, you know, not giving my in-house experience enough credit, you know? And she's like, "No, seriously. You're a good lawyer. Go, go be a lawyer." So, so, um, I went to a law firm with a couple of friends and, and that didn't work out great.

Went to another law firm and, and that didn't work out great, and I interviewed all the big firms in town and they kinda didn't get me. I remember one managing partner kinda looking at me going, "Maybe I pay you from the marketing budget." You know? They, they, they got it, but they didn't understand. And so my wife was like, "You should just do your own thing."

And I'm like, "Really?" So during... Well actually frankly the, the pandemic forced my hand. I was at, working at home. I didn't have any associates to lean on. I'm like, "I'm doing this pretty well, so why not?" So in 2000 I opened my own law firm. In 2000? In 2000, yeah. So I spent about, what, two and a half, three years, whatever, two different law firms and, you know...

Listen, I'm honest. I mean, the common denominator in both those, you know, experiences was me.

Nate Spangle: Yeah.

Wes Zerkle: And so I'm like, "Well, what's wrong with me? Oh, I know what's wrong with me. I'm not a traditional lawyer." Yeah. I don't- Wait, in 2000 or 2020? I'm sorry, 2020. Excuse me. In, okay. I'm sorry, I said that wrong. Yeah, yeah.

Sorry, 2020. So in,

Nate Spangle: in 2020

Wes Zerkle: you open your own firm? Yes. I'm sorry, 2020. Excuse me.

Nate Spangle: Oh, okay. So you tried them out and you're like, "You know, this isn't a good fit, this isn't a good fit," and then you're like, "Oh, wait."

Wes Zerkle: Yeah. "

Nate Spangle: It's me." It's me. "

Wes Zerkle: Hi,

Nate Spangle: I'm the

Wes Zerkle: problem." I'm the problem. It's me. I'm a terrible billable mercenary.

It's just not what I do. Yeah. I, I just, yeah. Now why,

Nate Spangle: why, like the traditional business model of, you know, a big firm-

Wes Zerkle: Mm-hmm...

Nate Spangle: like that is all about billable hours.

Wes Zerkle: That's right.

Nate Spangle: So versus like you think commission structure or like, you know, bringing value to a deal, it's not necessarily that. It's like how many hour, how many hours are you billing?

Wes Zerkle: Yeah, it's, it's a really inefficient model. I don't know that there's a really good answer to it, but the problem is, a- and I experience it too, like there are times where you, you d- you do something that saved your client literally millions of dollars or saved their business and it took you an hour. Well, is that, is that worth an hour?

Well, no, it's

Nate Spangle: worth a lot more. A little bit more of a variable scale.

Wes Zerkle: Right. So, so, you know, that- that's how traditional a firm works. Mm-hmm. And so I've tried to do something a little bit different where some of my clients were like flat fee, some wanna pay me hourly, but what I love is the flexibility of it, is now that I work for myself, I can do lots of other things.

Mm. So what was like your first customer? Who was the first person that took a chance on Jess West? It's funny the, the, the first company, uh, was a company called GG Circuit. That was a client that I had met, uh, uh, I met at, uh, when I was at, at the agency after JMI briefly, and they're an eSports company.

They, uh, they had software that powered LAN centers and so they hired me, uh, as their lawyer 'cause they needed some legal work. They was taking on an investor, and sure enough, in, trying to think, was it 2017 or so, I can't remember when it was, but I sold them for $26 million. And then they s- yeah. You repped them- Uh-huh

while they sold for 26 million? Yeah. In fact, I, you know, they f- they, they said as we were going through the closing and everybody's getting their bonuses and stuff, it's like, "Gee, Wes, we probably should've given you equity 'cause you had a really big part of making this valuable." I'm like, "Yeah."

Nate Spangle: Yeah. "

Wes Zerkle: Aw, shucks."

Could've

Nate Spangle: been nice, guys. Thanks. Could've been nice, you know? Yeah. But, um- I mean, that's- It does seem like you're in the middle of interesting stuff when interesting stuff is happening.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah. That kind of happens. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, the, it's, the cool thing about that is they became friends. They started a new company, another software company.

I'm a, I'm a minority owner of it. Hey. There you go. So- You got in on this one. Yeah. I, I, I, yeah. There you go. We got in on it, right? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you start to take on- So, so that was ver- client number one. Client number two was Ed Carpenter.

Nate Spangle: Oh, we just had Ed on. Oh, did you? Yeah. Terrific. Terrific.

He's, uh- Ed's a good friend. Ed is a good dude. I, uh, halfway through that, though, um, he's like, "Yeah, people find it hard to get a good read on whether I'm having a good time or not." And I was like-... "Hey, Ed, I am having that feeling right now. Like, I can't tell if you love this or hate this." He said, "I like, I like it."

Yeah. You know? Like, he was like, so he's just such a, like a, a, just a- Uh, he's a very nice, great guy Extremely nice But not necessarily, uh, if I'm, like, overexpressing, you know, if I, like, show a lot of emotion- Mm-hmm... that's not necessarily his vibe.

Wes Zerkle: No, that's not. And, and I am, I'm that expressive guy, too.

Yeah. That is just not him. That's, um- No... okay, so

Nate Spangle: then you became, um, 'cause what was it, for ECR?

Wes Zerkle: So yeah, for ECR. So what happened is, so I said, you know, JMI, we all kind of went our different ways. The really cool thing, if you look around motorsports now, JMI alumni are everywhere. Yeah. Zach hired extremely good people, and they're all over motorsport, not just IndyCar.

And so there was a, a guy I'd worked with named Mike Nelson who, who was partnership development for Ed Carpenter. He's now at Toyota. Um, and, uh, Ed was looking for a lawyer, and Mike's like, "Oh, I got a really good one." And, and, um, and the funny thing is, I'll tell you. Sorry, lots of stories. But- No, we love the stories But, so- Stories are great

so I go to, I go to ECR, and then Ed, Mike, and I go out for lunch. And we're driving, and I'm in the front seat with Ed, and he goes, "You know what? My, uh, my dad knows you and really likes you and says you're actually one of the few lawyers he likes." I'm, I'm, now keep in mind, I don't know if everybody knows this, w- who his stepdad is.

It's Tony George. Yeah. But I'm sitting there going, "Carpenter. Carpenter. I don't know a Carpenter. Carpenter. Carpenter." Wow. I'm just trying, racking my brain. Who? And, and trying to fake, like, "Oh, you know, just kind of thinking what deal I'm going to." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Tony George." Okay. And now I, now I'm putting the pieces together, and Tony and I did a couple of deals together with JMI and stuff.

So, so yeah, so Ed, I, he was my second lawyer at Carpenter Racing, and I'm still, I'm still their lawyer. I mean,

Nate Spangle: that is high praise for, uh, for Tony- Yes... to say that you're one of the few lawyers that he likes. Oh, I know that. Like, that, you're in, I would say that's, like, I mean, a, a top-level compliment you could get.

Wes Zerkle: It, it really is. In fact, Tony still s- says hi to me at the tracks. Hey. You know? And he- That's-... is a man of few words himself, but- Yeah... uh, but he's, yeah,

Nate Spangle: he's a fan. I was gonna say, are they still, like, active in r- like, in the community

Wes Zerkle: in racing? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I al- almost always exclusively see, uh, see Tony at tracks.

That's awesome. Yeah.

Nate Spangle: Okay. That, that's really, really cool, 'cause you think- So St. Pete and Dallas, yeah... yeah, I was gonna say, you think it'd be easy to just kind of say, "Eh, you know what? We had a good run, but- Mm-hmm... I'm gonna, you know, go be interested in something different." That's right. Wow. Okay, so you start to stack on more and more customers- Right

more and more clients- Right... that you're working with. Still in, like, what's the sweet spot? Like, who, is it racing teams, or is it adverti- like- Right... and what does the work that you're doing actually look like? Okay.

Wes Zerkle: Like- How do I explain this to people? Gosh. Yeah. I, I am an outside general counsel. Yeah, yeah.

So what does that mean? That means you have re- a recurring, you have a business that has frequent or recurring legal needs for which that person needs to understand your business- Yeah... thoroughly to react to it. And I'm fortunate. Like, litigators can't do what I do because they can't do anything until they get sued, for instance, right?

Where I s- I oversee the entire legal aspect of the business.

Nate Spangle: Yeah.

Wes Zerkle: Whether it be for- You know, ECR or for- Yeah, and

Nate Spangle: so, like, recent- in recent news- Yeah... for ECR, big news happens, and, you know, Splenda and Java House- Mm-hmm... and Heartland Food starts to get involved in the mix, and someone- I did that deal.

Yeah. Someone's gotta be in, which is, I mean, I don't know if you ended up also working with, uh, the Heartland side of things, but they're, like, on everything. Java House- They're on everything... Java House is on, like, every race. It's crazy.

Wes Zerkle: It's, well, it, yeah, so the, we, so s- funny thing I'll tell you is, uh, what, three IndyCar teams have sold in, like, what, the last three years, and I did two of them.

So I represented Sam Schmidt and Rick Peterson when they sold to McLaren, and I represented, um, Ed and, and his ownership group. Was that a sale? Yeah. Well, we sold a majority stake.

Nate Spangle: Okay.

Wes Zerkle: So, so Ted Gelov, the owner of, of, of Heartland Food Products Group, is the majority owner now of, of ECR. Oh. But it's really important to him that Ed stay in control.

And, and so it's still very much Ed's team. That's sick. But it's, but what it's done is provide a bunch of resources, expertise, money, you know, everything you need for a race team, and it's pretty exciting- Yeah... honestly. You know, having built a team, so it's, what, 20, uh, 2017- Yeah... I think.

Nate Spangle: Yeah. It's been a- I mean, it is really interesting that, uh, that Ed plays in, like, the owner- Mm-hmm

the, like, CEO se- and the driver seat. Yes. Like, he really, like, I don't know if anyone knows all the sides of IndyCar as well as, as Ed has. Oh, incredible,

Wes Zerkle: incredible. And the funny thing is we're, we're, we're in about our last week of getting CEO Ed. So, like, when we're done, I have to go finish some things because once the, uh, the, the, like, Sonsio Grand Prix is over, we get Driver Ed.

And Driver Ed's a different person, and we all laugh about it. Crazy. But it's, right, so Driver Ed is now focused on winning a race. Yeah. And no longer wants to answer questions from lawyers. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm trying to get a few things done before we, we lose him, we get Driver Ed. Wow.

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm. Man, that's so fun.

Yeah. It seems

Wes Zerkle: like a really fun career. Yeah, it is. And I think you asked, so part of my life is motorsport, 'cause I mean, I provide general counsel services, which means I also work a lot with businesses of all kinds. And the, the only rules are I have a no A-hole rule. Yeah. Right? So I only work with people that I like.

But it touches a lot of things and not just, not just, uh, entertainment, although a lot of things are kind of racing adjacent. Yeah. This can't help it. It's like when you, when you have those contacts and you go out and get your, your clients, you're gonna run into racing people. That's where I am a lot of the time.

Yeah. But, mm-hmm.

Nate Spangle: Which is a f- I mean, a really fun place to be. And this ends up getting you into a kind of a different business adventure, I'll say- Yes... with Christian Rasmussen. Yes, right. That's right. With, so, like, you're not just his general counsel, right? No. And so, uh, obviously he was coming up through the, you know, the IndyCar circuit.

Mm-hmm. You have to, was it Indy NXT? Was that what it- Um, I-... or was it

Wes Zerkle: called? I met him in USF, what do they call it? USF Pro Championship? It was, it was the old, it's an older name Yeah It's the one right underneath Indy NXT Which was s- called something different- Yeah... back then It's, it's I can't remember what it's called So you,

Nate Spangle: you find him when he's on, on the rise, and- They found me No, they found you They found me Okay,

Wes Zerkle: explain Yeah, so I still remember.

I was on the way home, driving home, getting my second COVID vaccination. Nice And, and, uh, I get a phone call from my former partner at my old law firm, and he's a stick and ball guy. And he says, "Hey, I, I-" What does a stick and ball guy- Oh, stick and... He's a baseball lawyer Oh, baseball guy He does a lot of work in baseball All right.

Yeah, yeah Yeah. And so- Stick and ball guy Yeah. So- It's like, oh Yeah Seems like,

Nate Spangle: it seems like a guy, what a f- Yeah, yeah... what an interesting cat.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah, that's kind of how it was. They, we, we talk about those different industries like that Yeah, yeah And, and so, so yeah, Josh called me and said, "Hey, we got this driver agreement, and it's, it's really weird.

I think you should take a look at it." I'm like, "What's weird about it?" And he tells me, and I'm like, "Send it over to me. That didn't sound right." And I took a look at this agreement, and I called Josh, said, "I have no interest." He's like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "I don't, I don't wanna touch this deal. This is so messed up."

Like, what was messed up about it? Okay, so this was a management agreement, and I won't say who from. But it was, um... They basically bought a public company, um, that had been delisted. And so that means it's cheaper to get it back on the NASDAQ or s- New York Stock Exchange where it's cheaper to get up. So they created this company and wanted to get athletes signed up, and they would sell shares to the public.

The idea that you could help support athletes that needed a lot of money, like race car drivers, boxers, golfers, and then you would get a return. But the problem is the returns were onerous. I mean, I've never seen provisions in a contract this one-sided and this bad in my life.

Nate Spangle: So this is kind of like what people, uh, Fernando Tatis Jr.,

you know, where it's like a similar thing as to they go down to, like, the Dominican and invest 100,000 into 100 up-and-coming baseball players- Sure... hoping that one pans out. Right And then they take 40% or whatever of their future earnings That's right. That's right, and that's the problem. It's, in

Wes Zerkle: this case, it was 30%.

Nate Spangle: So 30% of future earnings Future

Wes Zerkle: earnings, which is very salty. Yeah.

Nate Spangle: Yeah. Like, in, in, if you were just in general, you talk about, um, agents. Mm-hmm Like, what's a typical, like, agent fee for a professional athlete?

Wes Zerkle: Oh, gosh, it depends on the sport, but-

Nate Spangle: Like percentage

Wes Zerkle: of- In, in motorsport it's 10% of the driver contract.

Okay 15% to 20% of, of any deals they source Deals they source Of deals they source Okay This contract was 30% of anything, didn't matter where it came from.

Nate Spangle: Oh, wow. So, you know, you make, you make 100, 30 bucks is going to your- That's right... to your agent And they don't do anything To your... Wow Right.

Wes Zerkle: And so, like, so, so to back up, so I got this agreement, and I was like, "I'm not touching this.

I want nothing to do with this." And in fact, I literally said, "Negotiating this agreement is malpractice 'cause this can't be fixed Is it already signed? No. Okay. And then so Josh calls me the next day and said, "I told them you didn't wanna talk, but they really, really wanna talk to you." I said, "Fine, okay.

We'll set up a Zoom." Right? So this is Rasmussen's parents, Niels and Vivi. I love these people to this day. They're, they're, they're wonderful. But I got on the phone, or I got on the Zoom and explained, "Listen, here's what this agreement does. None of it's good." And I said, "By the way, he just won the championship, right?"

"Yeah." "So he's got a scholarship. He doesn't need this deal yet. You're funded." "Oh, okay. Right, right, right." And, and his dad, I mean, listen- Where are they from? They're from Denmark. Okay. And his dad's like, "I didn't think this said what he told me it was gonna say," because they're not native English speakers.

And of course, contracts are very nuanced. The words matter. And, and I'm gonna s- kind of almost impersonate, uh, Vivi, N- uh, Christian's mom, but understand I love this woman. But she's like, "Oh, Wesley, oh, Wesley, we almost made the worst mistake of our lives. Oh my gosh. Would you be Christian's manager?" And I went, "No."

"I don't manage drivers, but I'll be his friend." So we went out for coffee. You know, he's, like, 20 years old. He, you know, hasn't-- He just moved here, doesn't have a lot of friends. I don't remember the timeline, but I know at one point came over to my house for Thanksgiving, became friends with my kids, and my daughter's his same age, and we just developed this relationship.

Nate Spangle: So he's almost kind of like a... I mean, yeah, you're probably 17, 15, 20 years older than him, or- Oh, I'm

Wes Zerkle: double his age. Double his age, okay. He's 25. I'm 35. So it's like you're

Nate Spangle: a friend, but you're also like a mentor. Yeah. You know, like, uh, 'cause are they over in... Or are they in- They're in Denmark, yeah. So he's, like, away from home in a place where, you know, you start to get some success, and that's the thing, it's like piranhas almost.

That's right. Like, everyone wants to get their- Everybody, yes... their slice. Everyone wants their

Wes Zerkle: slice, but nobody wants to do the hard work. And, and, and what I did organically, like, I helped him get a, get his car registered, get him a car. You understand, so real quick, so if you are a foreign athlete, you can come over without a visa if you're not being paid.

You can get prize money. Like, and especially, and the regulations say that drivers and golfers fit in this category really well. They can come to the United States and race for prize money, and they don't have to have a proper visa. Well, the problem is, if you don't have a visa, you don't have a Social Security number, and if you don't have a Social Security number, you can't get a driver's license, which means you can't register a car.

So you're here living in the United States, and you can buy a car, but you can't register it. So what do we do? Oh, I went ahead and created his company. Every race car driver races under a company. Problem is, you need what's called an EIN, employee identification number. Guess what you need to get one of those?

A Social Security number, which he didn't have. So I created the company as its first member. I used my Social Security number, and I created the company, and that company bought the car and registered the car at the DMV- Yeah... so that he could drive around. For the longest time, he didn't have a car. He was, he says, "Wait, uh, legal guy."

Yes. "Is this legal?" It's not illegal. Yeah, there we go. It's, it, we're, we're working the gray area here. Yeah. Well,

Nate Spangle: that's,

Wes Zerkle: that's crazy. 'Cause I, I basically gave the company to him before it had any value. So, you know. Oh,

Nate Spangle: wow. That's something that a big firm or whatever, it's like you don't, you don't have time or you're not compensated to go help- No

your, help Christian get a car. He's

Wes Zerkle: a, he's a middle-class kid. He can't afford lawyer rates to go sit in the DMV. I just did it, 'cause I liked him. Yeah. You know? And, and by the time you're doing things like that, it's now like, well, how do taxes work? Oh, gosh. Right? And so you start to, oh my gosh, what does it mean?

Think about all the questions you would have if you just dropped into Denmark and tried to live there full time. The, he had the same questions about us, and so after a while it's like, "I guess I'm kind of managing your life. Should we make it official?" And he says, "I think we should." And really what forced our hand is we decided to go get a proper P-1 visa.

Mm. It's a professional athlete's visa, and a management company could sponsor him. Because a challenge is, like, if his race team got it, it's only valid for as long as he races for the team. Well, those young guys change teams every year a lot of times. Yeah. And those visas are expensive. So I, I sponsored him and got a five-year visa.

What? 'Cause I had a vested financial interest in him. Yeah. So I could, I could sponsor his visa. So we got a P-1, and that made me his official manager. Boom. There we go. That's kinda how I became a managed Christian. It,

Nate Spangle: it starts with a call. You're like, "Nope, don't want this." I don't want this.

Wes Zerkle: Do

Nate Spangle: not wanna touch this.

Wes Zerkle: Which we've laughed about a lot of times. Yeah. You know? I mean, how close we were to not making this happen. Yeah. And, and we're both so glad we did because, you know... But

Nate Spangle: there's, comes a moment when you were friends with him where he almost did never ride.

Wes Zerkle: That's right. No, I mean... Was that, like, at Indy NXT?

That was Indy NXT, and if, if, if you in the audience don't, don't know, it costs a lot, a lot of money to become a race car driver. And I mean, you're talking the, the junior, the first step on the road to Indy is about 350,000, and that's, that's the cheap side. It- 300, like, where do you get 350? Right. That's right.

That's why rich people become race car drivers. And, you know, if, if you're middle class and you don't find support- Wow... you're just, you're done. So Indy NXT is, uh, about 1.35. For the season? Mm-hmm. Plus crash damage, which isn't cheap. Front wing's $25,000. Front wings come off all the time.

Nate Spangle: Oh

Wes Zerkle: my God. Right?

So you scrape, now if that tire scrapes the front edge, that just cost that kid 25,000. And no, you can't bill the kid that hit you. It doesn't work that way. So, you know, you, you have to have the money to drive, then you have to have- So how are

Nate Spangle: they getting $1.5

Wes Zerkle: million? Rich kids. But Christian had a backer from, from, uh, had a backer in Denmark who helped kind of get him to the US.

But for him it was very much win or go home. 'Cause we have this scholarship system, the Road to Indy. You win USF 2000, scholarship to go pro. Win pro, go to Indy NXT. Win Indy NXT, get, get a scholarship in air quotes to go to IndyCar. So- You, but you gotta win... you gotta win. And Christian did not win his first year at Indy NXT.

It was a, it was a tough year. He ran out of gas his first, first race at St. Pete, which is not supposed to happen, 'cause those cars don't, don't pit. He had a cut tire his second race, and now he's like, "Oh, shoot, now I'm in trouble." And he started over-driving his car. And so that season didn't go great. What he did learn is, "If I got a fifth place car, make sure I bring it into fifth place.

Don't crash it trying to go first." Right? He learned a lot that season, but that, we had to though find money for season number two, 'cause at this point I'm like, "Okay, this kid's real."

Nate Spangle: Were you, were you, um, his friend or his manager at that point? At this point I'm his manager. Okay. And you're like kind of watching this unfold, and you're like, "Oh, I have a vested financial interest," and- Mm-hmm

and we're not go- not going so well. Well, well, yeah. And

Wes Zerkle: in fact, there's, there's no financial interest unless he makes IndyCar, 'cause there's no money.

Nate Spangle: Yeah, like, well, I mean- He's not making money... I'm gonna say, like, what is a sponsor on a livery for Indy NXT? Oh, gosh, whatever

Wes Zerkle: you can get. Um, John Wortman gave me a few dollars, and Valeo was on the side of the car.

That's, you know, I didn't, that's not how I met John, but I knew John, like, "Please, please, please, please." I mean, I was literally begging everybody I knew for money, and Christian was doing the same. And, and we, we put together, like, hope I can say this out loud, but his parents took a mortgage on their house so they could make the down payment on, on the, on the contract.

A mortgage on their house. Yeah. '

Nate Spangle: Cause you had to make a

Wes Zerkle: down pa- to who? To the team, the new, that's, this team. It was HMD Motorsports- Okay... was the second team.

Nate Spangle: And so you had to s- they're like, "Yeah, it's gonna be

Wes Zerkle: 1.3." Well, the, the first payment was 75 grand due, like, December 1st, you know, or whenever it was, and so they were able to put together enough money for that.

Drivers have to pay

Nate Spangle: the team.

Wes Zerkle: Yes.

Nate Spangle: Does that change at IndyCar? Eventually. When you get to the top of IndyCar. We, we can talk about that in a sec. Yeah, okay. All right. So, so- So they have to put 75 grand- Yeah... down- Yes... by December 1st- Yes... and the season starts in February. That's right.

Wes Zerkle: That's right. So we're using that time to start generating money and, like, it, we, we- How do

Nate Spangle: you generate mon-

Wes Zerkle: just literally- Literally call everybody you know, and, and, and, and, uh, uh, the guy wants to be anonymous, but I'll say that Christian met a guy through his racing who has a substantial sum of money And he did not give us tons and tons of money, but he gave us enough.

Nate Spangle: And what does that guy get out of it?

Wes Zerkle: Well, that's what he was asking me. And I said, "You're doing it 'cause you like him and you know he's got the talent." 'Cause he's like, "Well, if I'm putting in a form, be like, you know, it's only like a 12 and a half percent return." I'm like, "

Nate Spangle: Dude, it doesn't matter." There, there is a return.

Wes Zerkle: Well, I set up an investment program for Christian. Okay. Which we could talk about. We should probably talk about it a sec. Yes, yes. But, but anyway, so, so, but I still remember, like, uh, this guy, he, I just... He was going to do it. It's a matter of just getting him to say yes. And, um, I remember teach, because I teach at the law school, and I had the team manager lighting me up on text while I'm teaching, going, "Dude, we have to sign the engine lease by 2:00.

I gotta know, I gotta know, I gotta know." And so I get done with class, and I call this dude, and he's like, "I'll call you right back." I'm like, "Dude, I gotta talk to..." He's like, "I'll call you right back." So I call this guy, and he's like, "Uh, you know, yeah, sure. What about, I don't know, quarter of a million to start?"

"That, that's great. Thank, thank you, thank you so much." And I called it, and, and again, called Mike at HMD. I'm like, "Mike, we got the money. Sign the contract." I mean, and we almost lost the deal, like, two more times that year 'cause we needed to pay the team. We had it paid in installments. I mean, we're coming out of mid-Ohio and almost didn't have that seat.

'Cause you need another- We need another tranche of money. Yeah. You know? Had to keep... I mean, it was, the whole season was, like, Christian just laughed. Like- Is he

Nate Spangle: winning?

Wes Zerkle: Like, is he winning that year? Yes, he's winning. So he's, he's- He's killing it. He's killing it. He's- We know, we know he's the guy. He's crushing, but he's like, uh,

Nate Spangle: you're gonna run out of gas.

Literally, you're gonna run out of cash. We're gonna, gonna

Wes Zerkle: run out of cash, yeah. Yeah. To get

Nate Spangle: the seat for mid Oh- to finish the year, to get the scholarship. To finish the...

Wes Zerkle: Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah. It was, it was just, it was so stressful. You know, my family felt it. I felt it financially 'cause I was feeling, I was spending a, too much time, frankly, trying to fundraise for him and not enough time being a lawyer.

Yeah. You know? And so that was a, that was a tough period, but I really, really believed in him, and I liked him a lot, and I really wanted to see him succeed. And so we both together, he worked his angles, I worked mine, and we got him through that season, and he wins the championship. When did you know he was gonna win the championship?

Oh, gosh, probably three races

Nate Spangle: left. Three races left, you're like, "Okay." Something like that. "Just finish the races, and you're good."

Wes Zerkle: Yeah, for, I mean, he had to, he couldn't do bad, but by this point I'm like, "Okay, the momentum's here." And I remember Nashville, he got pole at Nashville. I'm like, "Game over. He's got this."

Nate Spangle: Well, how did that feel when you're like, "Wow, we got him, we got him literally, we got him to the finish line of the season." I'll say it, it,

Wes Zerkle: it, uh, unbelievable relief, but now we gotta get him a ride. Because even though the, the winner of the Indy NXT championship gets a scholarship, which is really cash and, you know, an allotment of tires, it, it's money savings for the team, there's no obligation for any team to take the Indy NXT champion.

So you could have a win, the person win Indy NXT not end up in IndyCar. There's no obligation for anybody to take that driver. What? Yeah. So then you

Nate Spangle: gotta convince

Wes Zerkle: a team-

Nate Spangle: A team... to take you on.

Wes Zerkle: That's right. That's right. Mm. You know, and so who am I bugging? Ed, a lot. A lot, a lot. You know, to the point where he's like, "Wes, I know about your guy.

Chill." You know? And, and so I, I got, I can't go through the, the, the details, but eventually Ed calls me and he goes, "Okay, I want Christian." And so we, we put Christian in ECR, which is where he is now.

Nate Spangle: That's so cool.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah.

Nate Spangle: What do parents that have kids that wanna be professional race car drivers need to know about getting them to their goal?

Well, first I wanna

Wes Zerkle: say be, be realistic about how good your kid is, uh, because the e- the other thing to know is it's very, very expensive, as I've said. You should do two years of Next, so I would say plan on four and a half... No. Yeah, about $4.5 million at least.

Nate Spangle: $4.5 million? Just to go

Wes Zerkle: through Road to Indy, and I'm not talking about your days carting, you know, learning how to drive. They start out in go-karts, which is pretty- You're, you're talking to get to open-wheel racing. Yeah, you're talking, when you get to the point where you're like, "Oh, okay. We're gonna make a run at, say, the Road to Indy," you know? And very similar numbers for, for the NASCAR side, too, but it's... Uh, and F1 is just astronomical.

Astronomical. I think it was three million, three, four million dollars for an F3 ride.

Nate Spangle: Yeah, I'm, like, looking. We have, like, the Colton Herta diecast over there. Yeah. And I'm like, he's in F2 right now.

Wes Zerkle: Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Big, big, big money. So, um, so first of all, be realistic about how much it's gonna cost.

Second, be realistic about your kid's talent. Um, but here's the thing I want folks to know, is there's a legitimate way to fund a, a person's career, and you're gonna be approached by people who think they have that figured out. They probably don't. I have seen more proposals and agreements that just won't work for investment than I have seen that would.

And, and the truth, the problem is that when you're an IndyCar driver, yes, these, these people do well, but over their career they'll probably make what a NFL quarter... Like, Fernando Alonso's, like, guaranteed contract is, what, 50 some odd million dollars for his first, whatever, three years, four years, whatever.

It's probably what an IndyCar will make, a top driver, in his entire career. Probably more than they would make in their entire career. So we're not talking about NFL numbers. So you can't, you can't tell people, "Oh, we're gonna pay back four, uh, four times your investment," or something. There's no way. You'll never get it done.

So your investors are people who just wanna see your kid succeed and maybe want a chance to make a little bit. But it's... Be very, very wary of people who are like, "I can fund your career. I just need a little taste of the action on the back end," 'cause it's probably, probably pretty userous when you start doing the math on it.

Nate Spangle: Wow.

Wes Zerkle: Mm-hmm.

Nate Spangle: Where do

Wes Zerkle: professional drivers start to make money? So i- in the case of, you know, our series here in Indianapolis in, in IndyCar, so some drivers will pay. I won't name names, but people probably know some that there's a couple of pay drivers out there right now. But when you're in IndyCar, you're generally getting paid.

And, and just like any typical contract, any pro contract, it's your second and third contracts that really start to pay out. Your first contract is, let's dip the toes in the water. Can you win races? Can you win races? Can you talk to engineers? That's one of the folks that, things that people don't realize.

Uh, drivers just don't go out there and just do their thing. They've got to communicate. The, the really, really good drivers understand data, what the data means, and how to tell their engineers what to do. Like, you wanna know why is, why is Palou so good? He's so good because he and his engineer are like, their brains are fused, and Palou can take what's, he, what he feels in the car and tell his engineering team exactly what needs to change.

And they're, they're now, they're not guessing. They're saying, "This g- this person is telling me what he needs different in the car." That's rare. I mean, I get annoyed at Palou for winning so much. You know, he's like the Yankees back in the day. But I have to respect the guy. He, he's a, he's a complete driver.

And, and that's one of the hardest things for young drivers to learn is how do I, how do I digest data, how do I use it, and how do I communicate the feel of the car using data and telling the engineers? Because if you can do that, the engineers can give you the car you want.

Nate Spangle: What about, uh, the drivers who are just running the 500?

Mm-hmm. Are they having to put together money and deals for that, or does like... Oh, I'm thinking someone who runs like, there's Dry Reinbold. Yeah. They run a couple, I think, right? They run a couple. And then there's like a few... I mean, I just saw, oh, is it Katherine Legge?

Wes Zerkle: Yeah.

Nate Spangle: Is that how you say her name?

Katherine Legge, yep. Yeah. Yep. She's, like, driving for a team. Like, they got the field to 33 this year.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah, so, and, in all these cases, and I'll, you know, again, I represent Jack Harvey. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Nate Spangle: Right?

Wes Zerkle: So he-

Nate Spangle: Is he Sales AI? Does Sales AI, like- No, he's Invest. In- He found Invest...

Wes Zerkle: In- Invest is who is, like, his main-

Nate Spangle: Yeah, that's his main

Wes Zerkle: sponsor.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, he's on Fox every week, too. Yeah. Which, um, he's a great guy, by the way. Yeah. Jack, Jack's awesome. Um, but yeah, so, so the, the, the 500-only drivers are bringing usually sponsors that are, they're f- you know, flipping, flipping the check, yeah.

Nate Spangle: They usually have some sort of sponsor that's like, "Hey, we wanna run the Indy 500."

Mm-hmm. Which, I mean, is like, talk about value for a sponsor. Oh, yeah. Like, in a whole year, you know, it's like what do you think the average... Okay, this is like, bear with me on this. Mm-hmm. Like, if you were to sponsor a livery for a year versus sponsor a livery solely for the 500 How big is the delta between those numbers?

Oh, substantial. Really? Oh, yes. And it depends on the team. I thought it would be, like, 50%. I thought if it was, like, let's say you were spending 10 million a year to have a, a full IndyCar season. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I bet... Okay, well, that's a lot. Let's say it was- It's a lot... let's say it's five million for the year.

I bet it would be two million.

Wes Zerkle: No, the, the Indy 500, depending on the team, is call it a million dollars, give or take. To be a sponsor? To be the primary sponsor for the Indy 500. All

Nate Spangle: right, so we just need to get a million dollars- Right, right, right... we can have the get in car.

Wes Zerkle: You know, but, but why they do it are different reasons.

I mean, you know, that's the thing is, like, go back to JMI, what we just making sure those, those brands got what they needed from it. And

Nate Spangle: what, what do you get when you are the title sponsor of an IndyCar? Again, it depends on the team, but, you know- Like, for, I mean, someone like- Yes...

Wes Zerkle: a top-tier team. Yeah. Like- So you are getting, obviously, the livery.

You're getting access to the drivers. You can make the drivers go to conference or, uh, uh, Christian was just in, uh, Texas for two days playing golf, I think trying to help Har- Hartling close some deals of some kind. You know? Um, right? Isn't that crazy? So you can drag these drivers out and like, "Okay, why don't you play some..."

I mean, of course, he's happy to do it. Like, oh, yeah, I get to-

Nate Spangle: Yeah...

Wes Zerkle: play free golf and, yeah,

Nate Spangle: awesome, so. How do I get the Christian side of that deal? Right, right. If anyone, like, wants me to come along and play golf while you try to close some deals, let me know. That's right. I'm a, I'm a heck of a dinner conversation.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah, so but they, they, yeah, they, the, you can get drivers, and then you get access to hospitality, and that's where a lot of the magic happens is, I tell you what, you, if you go to the, you know, a, a race, especially like IMS during the month of May in practice, there's so much business being done, so many deals being done.

It's a great place to close deals or get people interested in working with your brand. Yeah. It's just so impressive. Um- Yeah, what brand do you think spends the most in IndyCar? Well, I haven't seen everybody's deal.

Nate Spangle: Okay, we, Gainbridge, right? The title sponsor- Oh, yeah... of the Indianapolis 500. They're spending a ton.

Yeah. They're, they're, you know, they're

Wes Zerkle: spending quite a bit of money. I know Arrow spends a lot of money that, uh- What is Arrow? Arrow's an electronics company. It's a really cool company. Arrow? Arrow. Yeah. This is Arrow McLaren. This Arrow McLaren, an electronics company, and, and I would encourage people to, to take a look at what they've done with Sam Schmidt and the, uh, his, his car that he can drive with his breath.

What? Mm-hmm. 'Cause Sam is paralyzed. He was paralyzed from an accident at Disney Speedway many, many years ago, and- He can drive a car with his- He can drive a car with his breath.

Nate Spangle: What?

Wes Zerkle: Mm-hmm. It's crazy. Arrow, Arrow did that. Yeah, so they're, like, a cutting edge electronics company that you kind of don't know, but my understanding is they're a supplier for- Are they in Indiana?

Or not Indiana. Are they in the US? They are in the US, yeah.

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm.

Wes Zerkle: Arrow.

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm.

Wes Zerkle: Whoa. Yeah, so they spend a lot of money on, on activation. That, that Club Five building is incredible. Where's that? Absolutely incredible. It, the, it's, goes to some, uh, races. It'll be at Indy. Look for it, but it'll be a big freestanding structure Uh, that looks like it's two stories and, and, um, I believe it has Arrow's name on top of it.

Um, that's an incredible, incredible temporary facility. Club Five. Yeah, Club Five. Uh, hey, any of my- If you get invited,

Nate Spangle: go... any of my Arrow friends, can you, can you-... snag me an invite to Club Five? It's amazing. That sounds insane. Yeah. Okay, so- It's temporary, yeah... who are

Wes Zerkle: all the, the other biggest- I mean, you've got, you know, NTT's obviously big.

What is NTT? Uh, they're a, what? What, telecommunications company,

Nate Spangle: I believe. Uh, yeah. Dude, that's wa- It's just crazy to me all the different ways that sponsors get involved- Yeah... with racing.

Wes Zerkle: I said that, NTT's a data company, sorry, not communications. But yeah- It's data?... they're data, yeah. Data and internet, stuff like that.

Wow. Yeah. That's fascinating. But, but there's, yeah, all kinds of ways to get in, uh, and, and, and reasons, and reasons to partner with teams.

Nate Spangle: Yeah. Yeah. Like, what would you say, you know, someone like, okay, Java House. Yeah. Splenda. Yes. When you're making the pitch- Mm... like, hey, why IndyCar? Why sponsor a team versus, uh, spending it all on Facebook ads?

Wes Zerkle: So in the, I'll, I'll speak kind of for Java House. Um, I don't work w- for Java House, I work for the team, but- Yes... but obviously I've been really close to Ted and seen his, seen his team at work. It's pretty amazing. What they wanna do, this is basically a newish brand. Yeah. And, and so if you go to a Java House, I, I like it a lot.

I have all my meetings at a Java House. Um- Great ambiance. Yeah, great ambiance, great coffee. That coffee you can buy. Yes. You can buy that for your home, and that's a new product that they're, they're

Nate Spangle: launching. Yes. They have the, like, utility patent on the peel, pour, sip technology, right? And it's, it's

Wes Zerkle: amazing.

The way Ted explained it to me is it's shelf stable because the entire process is completely sterile, and they have a patent on that process.

Nate Spangle: Uh, I will say, have you had their, uh, liquid science? Yes. That, that stuff's crazy. It's good. You like, pour it in a bottle of water and it slaps. It's, it, it does.

It's, it's so good. It's so good. I love the blue

Wes Zerkle: stuff. Yeah, the blue stuff. The blue, the blue's really good. The blue, the blue stuff. I'm not a big artificial orange flavor guy anyway. Yeah. Orange flavor, but I love the blue. The blue is fire. The blue's, the blue's amazing. Yeah, absolutely. And, and so, but yeah, so what they wanna do is have people taste.

And so Java House goes and they set up several activation areas around the track, and then they'll have, like, Christian and Alex come Sign autographs, take pictures. People get their Java House. They're sampling. Mm-hmm. It's about putting it in people's hands, and then they see it on the track. Then they see it next weekend when they're not at the race, but they're watching on TV or something to that effect, and it's that repeat.

Like, "Oh, I need to go buy Java House." You know, and in fact, I'll give a pitch, too. Their espresso martini th- pods are great. In fact, we're out. My wife's kind of mad at me, 'cause like last Friday she's like, "Oh, I think I'll have an espresso martini," you know? And I'm like, "Oh, we're out of Java House martini pods."

She's like, "Seriously, we're out?" I'm like, "She was kind of..." You know, they're really good. All right. They're really good to try. But, but so in the case of Java House, they want pe- they want customers touching their brand and trying it. Yeah. And so that's what that's about, you know? With Splenda, it's just different.

It's, uh, they're trying to introduce you to new ways to use the product. There's a new commercial out that I saw that features Christian, and it's great. It's just him talking to a lady in the grocery store, and she's like, "I wanna make this." "Well, then you need to use Splenda This." "I wanna make one of these."

"Well, you'd be better off using Splenda This." Yeah. Introducing consumers to new products- Yeah... is how they're doing it. It's really cool. Yeah.

Nate Spangle: Has Christian, like, ascended to stardom in IndyCar,

Wes Zerkle: do you feel like? I think he's, he's really close. I think had we, had we won that race in, in, in, uh, in, in Phoenix, it'd be a different ballgame this, this season.

It was... That was a tough race. He, he learned from that one, too. That was, if you remember, you know, he and Will got into it towards the end, and he, you know, he, he crashed. What can we say? Yeah. But, but you know, but, uh, but yeah, he's on the cusp. I'm really excited, 'cause this, this guy can, this guy can drive.

Wow. This guy can really, really

Nate Spangle: drive. Yeah. What are your, uh, what are, what's your outlook for the Indy 500 this year? Well, gosh, you don't wanna jinx it, you know. No. Um- But just like storylines to look out for, like things you're hearing. Who's looking fast?

Wes Zerkle: Well, you know, early on, um, you, you know, you got to kind, kind of take the testing days and, and not pay too much attention to it.

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm. 'Cause

Wes Zerkle: the, the, the open test they had at, in IndyCar, this, you know, tho- those, those engineers are trying out different setups. So you always gotta look at ECR. They're always strong. Obviously Penske. Like, is it a done deal that

Nate Spangle: it's Palou? I don't think so. This is the other thing I learned about.

Did you know, you definitely did, but did you know out there every driver is eligible for the same prize pool except for one, Alex Palou? Oh, he gets a, a multiplier. You get a multiple. You get like a- Mm-hmm... double up bonus. Yes. And, and if you don't go back-to-back, the, the back-to-back bonus I'm pretty sure is what they call it or something like that.

Yeah, yeah. The back-to-back bonus, and if he doesn't win, then it just continues to, to increase. Oh, I didn't realize

Wes Zerkle: that.

Nate Spangle: Yes. So when Newgarden did it, he won a $440,000 BorgWarner rollover bonus for his back-to-back. Nice. This, this jackpot, which increases by $20,000 annually, had not been claimed since 2002.

Nice. Okay. So Newgarden's 2024 payout, but then Palou... So Palou would only get $20,000 extra, I believe. Probably. Or, yeah, depends how they do it, 20 or 40. Yeah, the bonus structure. Yeah. Well, yeah. So it had gone unclaimed from 2002 until 2024, when he went back-to-back in three and four. That's impressive.

Yeah, that's why. And he got 440. Yeah. Which is, that's substantial.

Wes Zerkle: It is, but th- here's the thing that'll surprise folks. Um, when you see that prize payout in the IndyStar, the drivers aren't getting. Like, if, if the deal is 50%, they're not getting 50% of that number. That number includes money earmarked for the team under the charter.

Now, what used to be called Leader Circle Program, but the, the, the charter teams get an extra bonus for making the race. And so those numbers that you see published, that's a lot of money in there that the driver, that the driver doesn't

Nate Spangle: see.

Wes Zerkle: What do you

Nate Spangle: think the

Wes Zerkle: driver, the

Nate Spangle: winner of the Indy

Wes Zerkle: 500

Nate Spangle: gets in

Wes Zerkle: cash, like, you know, in a check?

Oh, I, I was talking about this the other day. Um, uh, I think it's, it's a, it'd be a little more than a million dollars, I think, is what they should get, even after they split with the

Nate Spangle: team. 2025 was a total of 20.28 million. Mm-hmm. They say Palou earns approximately 3.8, but you're like, "Yeah." Yeah. That goes- There's like

Wes Zerkle: a million or so in there that comes out for the

Nate Spangle: team.

What did the first winner of the Indianapolis 500 make? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say $1,500. Not that little. 14,250. 14,000? Okay. 14,000 in, in 1911. That's a lot of money. That is a lot of money. That is an awful lot of money for then. The total purse was $27,000. I mean, you know what this means. Uh, what was his name, Carl Fisher?

The guy who start- who made the track. I mean, he must have been a guy that got deals done. Must have. Like, to get, to get a prize pool of $27,000 in there. Back in that day? Are you kidding? That's, that's pretty impressive. That's amazing. Okay, so if I scroll down, yeah, like last year it says Palou took home 3.8, but see, Newgarden took home 4.2.

Yes. But that's probably because the rollover bonus. The rollover bonus, yeah. 'Cause the year before, he had took home 3.6. That makes sense. That makes sense. Like Marcus, it says he took

Wes Zerkle: home 3.1. When you're trying to negotiate, uh, contracts for drivers, and you don't know what the prize pool is and how it's gonna be calculated, it's kind of frustrating.

Nate Spangle: Well, yeah, 'cause I wonder, uh, 2020. So it was steadily going up. So 2019, uh, it was 13 million. 2020, it was 7.5. Had to do something with ticket attendance. Like, that has to probably go into it. Oh. Because it went, 2020 was 7.5, 2021 was 8.8, and then it jumped back up to 16 mil. Hmm. Then 17. That would make sense, yeah.

Then 18. Last year, total prizes, over $20 million. Insane. This is the crazy part.

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm.

Nate Spangle: Let's say, I'm thinking of, like, previous guests we've had on that have been trying to figure it out. Christian Lundgaard. Yeah. We had him on. Great guy. We had- Mm-hmm... uh, Jacob Abel. Mm-hmm. Abel's racing in the 500. That's where he is.

It's like, he wins the 500- He can't even, he still can't afford a seat next year. Right. You know? Like- Yeah... it's not like you're guaranteed, like you get a million bucks, like sick. It probably cost you a million bucks to run the car. Yeah, it's expensive. Like that's- It's- That's wild. It is. It really is, yeah.

Where in the standings do people actually make money? Top 10. Like, if you're out of the top 10, you're probably... Yeah. Not much. That's crazy. Not much. 10 right now in the IndyCar standings, when we're, as of the time we're filming this, it's like Graham Rahal, Rossi, Erickson. You go down a little bit, it's Will Power- Mm-hmm

like Rinus VeeKay. He didn't even get to... He was 33 last year, 'cause it was him- Yeah... and, uh, Jacob that got- Oh, right, right... were like going back and forth with Dale Coyne and Bump Day. Like, that's wild. Yeah. I think people think that these IndyCar drivers make,

Wes Zerkle: are making tons of money hand over fist. Oh, listen.

So- some, some do fine. Pato, Pato does fine, but again, you know, your, your, your benched quarterback in the NFL makes more.

Nate Spangle: Palou's gotta be doing pretty well. Pato's gotta be doing pretty well. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Like Newgarden. Of course. You know, if you're in, I feel like if you're in one of the, like Ganassi or Penske seats, you're probably- If you're, if

Wes Zerkle: you're a name, you know, those people like, oh, yeah, that, that person has a chance to win every weekend, and the person that the commentators are talking about, they're- Yeah

they're, they're multi, multimillionaires, for sure. Okay. For sure. Yeah. So they're, they're doing... And listen, don't, don't feel bad for them. But if you really wanna support your driver, favorite driver, the best way to do it is through licensed merchandise. 'Cause that's the really tapped area. Like I, when I worked in the NASCAR days back at JMI, I mean, those drivers made about 3 to 5 million a year on licensed merchandise.

Nate Spangle: I mean, back in the day, you could buy a Dale Earnhardt Jr. anything. Yes. Like- Yes... I remember we'd be, like walking through Walmart, and it was like a pocket knife- Mm-hmm... a fishing rod- That's right... uh, a shirt, a coat, pants, pajama pants, shoes, Crocs, giblets for your Crocs. Literally everything was Dale Earnhardt Jr.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah, I mean, back in my CMG days, right, we, we were the licensed administrator for, um, Evernham Motorsports. And so we did a, well, every team did a master deal back then with, with Action Performance. It's, it's called something else now. But Action had, like 75 categories. And then every other deal we did was what was left, the pocket knives, the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the grill spatulas and- Yeah

and those things. And so there was so much licensed merchandise. It was unbelievable.

Nate Spangle: Here's a question. Mm-hmm. When something like, okay, let's even say Dale Earnhardt Sr.-

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm...

Nate Spangle: the, you know, the black number three Goodyear car.

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nate Spangle: Licensing, does that money go to Goodyear, or does that money go to Dale Earnhardt's estate?

Depends what you're

Wes Zerkle: licensing, but that three, that Style 83 belongs to the team. The three, but the black and white, like Goodyear car, who has the rights to that? That's, that's trade dress- Well, okay, the shape of the car is trade dress of the car manufacturer. Yeah. And the trademarks belong to, say, Goodyear.

Delivery, I think, arguably belongs to the team. So, like, if

Nate Spangle: you were buying a Hot Wheels-

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm...

Nate Spangle: a licensed, officially licensed- Yeah, mm-hmm. Oh, yeah... Hot Wheel of the Dale Earnhardt car.

Nate Spangle: Mm-hmm.

Nate Spangle: And it, you buy it for a dollar. Yes. How does that dollar get split?

Wes Zerkle: Hmm, 15% that they can afford to pay out. The Hot Wheels can afford to pay out to the different- Yeah, so 15-

groups...

Nate Spangle: cents is probably- Yeah... that's the licensing

Wes Zerkle: fee- Right... for Hot Wheels. And so back, back in the, back in the heyday of NASCAR, it would got, it got split three ways: primary sponsor, team, and driver. Primary, so Goodyear. That was back in the day when these teams, they were on the car all season. Yeah.

You hardly ever see that anymore, but, but, but man, in the heydays, I mean, yeah, that, that, they, they would be on for all 36 races. And so they would get a cut. And for, like,

Nate Spangle: multiple years.

Wes Zerkle: And multiple years, yeah. You know,

Nate Spangle: like you think of, like, Jeff Gordon driving the, the iconic DuPont car. Mm-hmm. Like, it was, like, synonymous with Jeff Gordon.

That's right. You think of Dale Earnhardt, Dale Earn- the, the Budweiser car. Oh,

Wes Zerkle: absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and then but now the, the modern, in the modern times, the teams take, you know, most of it. And usually the drivers get about 40%, 40 to 50%.

Nate Spangle: Of the 15%. Yeah, that's right. Okay.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah. Wow.

Nate Spangle: But that's

Wes Zerkle: your- Yeah, I remember doing, I remember doing the, the NASCAR EA deal years ago.

I was representing, uh, Evernham. I, and Bill Elliott, and I kind of want to see, like, his cut was.15% because they had to pay everybody out of that, like, 15%. Every driver, every team, every sponsor had to be paid. So, so EA had to slice this up into, into small, small, small slivers. Wow. Yeah.

Nate Spangle: Insane.

Wes Zerkle: Do you want a crazy licensing deal?

Yeah. I got a crazy licensing story for you. I'd love to. You want to hear my Chuck Berry story?

Nate Spangle: Yes, I want to hear the Chuck Berry story. Okay.

Wes Zerkle: Listen, I'm, I'm a baby lawyer at this point, and I grew up, like, listening, you know, to Chuck Berry. Johnny B. Goode was one of my favorite songs, and of course, it shows up in Back to the Future.

Great movie. Great, great movie. So we represent Chuck Berry, and my, my boss, Jonathan, um, had put a de- put together a deal with Gibson Guitars. We wanna see if we can do a signature Chuck Berry guitar. Simultaneously, we'd done a deal with some airline back then that was doing celebrity-recorded FAA announcements.

I- the airline isn't in business anymore, but it's like, it was like Dennis Miller, Mia Hamm, and they got Chuck Berry. And so Chuck wanted to record this at his house, at the recording studio in his house, and he wanted his lawyers there. Okay. So Jonathan and I drive to the outskirts of St. Louis, where he had family, family land, and I mean, we...

It was outside of St. Louis. And so we pull up on this property, and I was surprised. Like, literally, it was announced with, like, a, a, a tombstone, like a headstone. It said Berry Park. And you drive down this long dirt road, and there's like these dilapidated homestead houses. I'm like, "What's going on here?"

And you pull up on a, on a nice home, brick home that you might see in a suburb somewhere. You know, call it a nice, you know, 5,000 square foot home. It wasn't like a mansion. It wasn't... It was just a nice home. And, and so Jonathan and I, we, we get there, and, and he's told to go, go, go around the back to the walkout basement.

And so we walk in, and it's just like a basement. Like, I think I was expecting like a recording studio like you see, like glass and all this. No, it was actually pretty, pretty relaxed. A little small stage, and he had card tables set up with all this, uh, sound mixing equipment. And, and so he was, uh... We got there, he was recording already.

Okay, blah, blah, blah. So he does his recording, and then we sit down to talk about this guitar. We had these guys from, two guys from Gibson there, and just brainstorming. What should this car- g- guitar look like? He wanted things like a, like a wider, a wider fretboard 'cause his hands are, his hands are huge.

His, his hands are absolutely enormous. And, and we're sitting down talking, and he sits next to me. And he's like, "Hey, Wes, you know how like I, uh... I'll, I'll like, I'll, I'll kinda pull the guitar up, kinda pull it up really high, kinda, you know, at my head like that?" He goes, "Well, I do that by hooking my finger underneath the, the bridge, and that hurts.

It hurts my, my finger." He says, "Do you think I could like get like a little hook or something to put my, my pinky around?" "Well, Mr. Berry, it's your guitar. Absolutely." "Hey, hey, Duane, Duane, Duane, Duane, Wes, Wes thinks I need a hook. He thinks I need a hook on my guitar," blah, blah, blah. This whole thing. And we're sitting down, and at one point he just starts, like, playing like the opening to, uh, uh, "No Particular Place to Go."

And at that moment I'm like, I literally at that moment I'm like, "Oh, my God, you're Chuck Berry." Like, you know, until that moment, I didn't know this. Like, we're hanging out with this guy, talking about this guitar. I've got a picture, I'm holding one of his guitars sitting next to him. No way. It was so crazy, and he even autographed the picture for me and everything.

And so yeah, we spent a whole afternoon talking about this guitar, so... And you can ask me where you can buy the guitar.

Nate Spangle: Where can you buy the

Wes Zerkle: guitar? You can't buy the guitar. Thanks for asking. So we got this all figured out, and, um, and we talked to Mr. Berry about terms, and he said he wants a $250,000 guarantee.

So what a guarantee is, it just... When you license a product, no matter how well it does, I get $250,000. That can be an incentive for the celebrity to join, but also it's incentive, uh, an in- incentive for the, the, the licensor to actually go out and merchandise a- and, and market the product so it sells. So he wanted this quarter million dollar guarantee.

And we went back to Gibson, which that seems like a very reasonable number, and they go, "We understand what you're asking, but, uh, we can't give any guarantees." Have you ever heard of a Gibson Les Paul? Yes. So Les Paul has a licensing deal with Gibson to this day It was like, it was from the early '50s, and it has what's called a most favored nations provision, which means if any other endorser gets better terms than what his deal is, then he gets those terms retroactively.

So his was a l- royalty only deal. So they told us, like, if they gave Chuck Berry a quarter million dollar guarantee, it was gonna cost them something like $30 million or something like that. To Les Paul. Yeah. Which they weren't gonna do. And so they go, "We lo- we wanna make the guitar, but we, we can't pay a guarantee."

And we told that to Chuck Berry, and he goes, "Elvis Presley picked up a guitar because of me. I'm Chuck Berry. I want a guarantee. No guitar." No guitar. And Jonathan, we, we'll play golf, you know, sometimes, and every now and then I'll bring it up like, "Man, I, I really wanna make that guitar." 'Cause between he and I, we probably still remember what it was supposed to be like, you know, but probably never happen, but that's- No

going to Chuck Berry's house and-

Nate Spangle: Y- and it's like, who would you even... I don't even know another, like, guitar manufacturer that would even be- Well, it has to be a Gibson's. That's what he plays. You know, like, they pushed the Les Paul so far. Yeah. You know, and it probably makes sense 'cause a lot of people are like, "No, I want a guarantee," or whatever, and they- Yeah

like, they can't go in arrears and repay. Yeah. Wow.

Wes Zerkle: But you go buy Dave, Dave Grohl's Gibson, he's just making royalties only. Yeah. That's it. That's how that deal works with them. Wow. That's fascinating. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so- This is

Nate Spangle: Elvis Guitar Elvis Presley. I know. Yeah. Oh, yeah, he

Wes Zerkle: was, he was a character. The other thing, funny thing just to tell you is, uh, I also...

One thing I wish I had stolen from my job at CMG was we got a letter from Yoko Ono that was signed by her, is asking Chuck Berry, addressed to Chuck to our agency, but asking him to write, like, a, a, a part of a book that she's, she's compiling about artists who had, who had known and worked with Chuck, or sorry, worked with John, uh, Lennon.

And she wanted Mr. Berry to contribute because they had collaborated. And I, I, I won't quote him on air, but, uh, when I called him and spoke with him, he, uh, had told me in very clear terms that he would, uh, not work with Yoko Ono under any circumstances. And if you wanna know why, Google Chuck Berry Yoko Ono, and there's gonna be a YouTube clip that'll come up.

Um, and it's, it's absolutely hysterical. Absolutely hysterical, 'cause she... They're singing a song, him, John, and then Yoko busts out something And the look on his face is incredible.

Nate Spangle: Yeah, AI says, uh, "Wailing vocals." Wailing vocals is generous. That's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Man, Wes, I feel like I could sit here and talk all day long.

We've come to the end of the show. We have a couple final- Yeah... Indiana questions. Okay. You game? I'm ready. Okay, so this question is brought to you by our friends at J.C. Hart. They're a leader in creating enjoyable living experiences at apartment communities all across Indiana and beyond. Check them out at homeisjchart.com.

My question for you, Wes: what is your favorite Indiana memory? Uh, okay,

Wes Zerkle: so since the month of May, the first thing that comes to my mind, I have to say, is I was finally able to make it on the track before the 500 last year, and that is... I, I can't describe it. I mean, it's... First of all, you know it's special because not many people get to do that, but you see the fans, everybody around you.

The cars are on the grid. You know in 15 minutes this thing's gonna be just the coolest sporting event in the world, and you could stand on it. It, it, it's still just one of the coolest moments of my life. I've done some neat things, but being able to go out on the, on the track before the race was, uh, was really special.

Like, what, what got you on the grid? Like, you- Christian had a pass Had a pass Every driver gets four. That's it. No way. And, and so, like, his rookie... 'Cause when I, when I, when I was working with him, I said, "Hey, when you make IndyCar," we were always optimistic, "When you make IndyCar, I get to be on the track for the race."

"Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah." Well, the first year his backer and, you know, backer came with his, with his wife, and his parents are gonna get it, and their next year there was, like, a sponsor thing and couldn't get it. So I finally got, you know, on the track, so- I mean- It was-... what did that feel like? Oh, it, it, again, it's, it's overwhelming because you just, like the drivers, you look around you and you're like, "Everybody's here.

This is the coolest sporting event on Earth." And, and even my wife, she took a picture. She was in the stands, and she got a, she actually got a picture of me that it, it's, it's, it's just amazing. Like, she's like, "Oh my gosh, there you are," you know? It was just... All I can say is overwhelming to be there and just know how special it is, and you get to be on the track before the race.

It was an absolutely incredible experience.

Nate Spangle: Wow. Yeah. That's wild. That's one of my favorites. That's a great one.

Wes Zerkle: Yeah.

Nate Spangle: I don't know if there will be a better memory than that. Like, that one's really good. I'm ready to put that on my bucket list. There you... Oh, yeah. You know, like, be on the starting grid. Well, you know a guy.

Give me a call. Yeah. See what we can do. I, I wanna get into, like, how do I get to wave a flag for one day? Just, like, not, maybe not even race day. I can work my way up there, but I wanna, like, work my way- Well-... into waving a flag.

Wes Zerkle: I, I don't know if it's possible, but I know the guy that waves the flags. What's his experience?

Nate Spangle: Uh- Like, like, how do you become the flag waver? I...

Wes Zerkle: He's got a whole story. He's actually a new client of mine, and I'm, I'm actually- The

Nate Spangle: flag-... learning. The flag guy is a- Wait, the flag guy- Yeah... needs legal representation? Yeah,

Wes Zerkle: his, it... I, I don't wanna steal his thunder. He's probably somebody you should talk to too, but he's a really fascinating guy.

Um, and, uh, he's written a book about his experiences and, uh- I mean, he, what, what are they called? Like, front seat in the house? Best seat in the house? I, I've... What is it called? I forget. Shoot. But it's, uh, his, um- Afterwards I'll tell you maybe put in show notes or something like that. That's wild. But he hits, yeah.

But, you know, and I, I know the guy, so- That's crazy... wave, wave a flag. We can talk.

Nate Spangle: I love it. All right, we've come to the final three questions that we ask every guest- Okay... who comes on the show. All right. First thing, this is your opportunity to shed some light on a part of the state that more people need to be talking about.

What is a hidden gem in Indiana? I'm a big Christmas guy. I love Christmas. Oh.

Wes Zerkle: And, uh, my hometown of Warsaw, small town, but it has a, it has a light display in its park that outkicks its coverage.

Nate Spangle: Are you talking about at, at, uh, at Center Lake? At Center Lake. Yes. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? Oh, dude.

Yeah, dude. That was the spot to take your, my, to take your high school girlfriend. Oh, yeah. If you took your high school girlfriend- Yes... to the Center Lake light show, you- You, so you've been there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Dinner, dinner before- Uh-huh... light

Wes Zerkle: show. Like, you were romantic. Yeah. And you know what I'm talking about.

It's a small town, but it's a heck of a show. It's just- Oh, yeah... yeah. I mean- It's like a

Nate Spangle: whole walking tour-

Wes Zerkle: Exactly right... through the whole

Nate Spangle: thing. It's, it's a vibe, for sure. It very, it's fun. The Center... I did not see that one coming. The Center Lake Christmas lights. Yes. That's a great one. Thank you.

Absolutely. It's a good one. That's a good hidden gem. It's a fun one. It's a fun one. Okay, next. This is your opportunity to enlighten us about someone who's making a big impact in the Hoosier State that more people need to be talking about. Who's a Hoosier we need to keep on our radar, someone who's doing big things?

Wes Zerkle: Man, I've, it's hard because I know lots of folks, and I mentioned, mentioned Jonathan Faber, great guy. But there, there's somebody I wanna highlight because his story is so wild. Um, Joe Johnson. Who's Joe Johnson? Joe Johnson, go to obviousshirts.com, and that's Joe Johnson. So, uh, Joe grew up, I believe it was in Crown Point, played baseball his whole life, went to Wabash College.

And I'll tell you the, uh, how I met him from my point of view, and you should have him on and he can tell you the story. But, um, I'm a, I'm a, um, now in private practice. I'm at the first firm I was at, and, um, I get a phone call out of the blue from a mutual connection of ours named Tony Unfried, who's a business guy here in town.

You- You know Tony?...

Nate Spangle: uh, you Wabash guys, you're always-

Wes Zerkle: I know. We, we know each other, right, right? So, so anyways, so I get this phone call from Tony, and he goes, uh, "Hey, I'm, I'm at Topgolf with a guy that needs your help." I'm like, "Okay, well, I'm, I'm working." He's like, "Yeah, yeah, I know, but he needs your help."

"Well, Tony, I'm kinda working right now." Um, "We're at Topgolf. Bay whatever. I'll see you in, what, 30 minutes?" 'Cause that's how Tony is. I'm like- That sounds like Tony... "I guess." Yep. So, um, so I, I go and I, I show up, and there's, there's Joe Johnson. And he grabs my hand and he's like, "It's so great to meet you. I am in so much trouble.

I don't know what to do." And he created a shirt on a, on a shoot, I forgot which baseball player it was, but it was like, "So and So's good at baseball," or something like that, and he wore it to a Cubs game. He's a big, big Cubs fan. And he's had people trying to bite it off his body. They loved it. So he just took business cards, you know, and made shirts, and then made more shirts and more shirts and other players. And so he got to me and he goes, "Wes," he goes I'm infringing on a lot of ballplayers, and I don't want to. I never meant for this to happen. This was a hobby. I was gonna make a couple of shirts. I've now made hundreds and hundreds of shirts, and I think this is a business. What do I do? And I said, "Okay." Well, I called a friend of mine that used to work at CMG who knows the baseball space really well, and he goes, "I'll get you to MLBPA."

So I got to the Major League Baseball Players Association, and I explained what had happened, and I said, "The guy wants to come clean, and he wants to be licensed, but he doesn't have a lot of money. So can you do a deal with me?" I go, "Okay, Wes." And she came forward. And I got him a sweetheart deal. It was, like, maybe, like, a $1,500 guarantee or something like that, and we got him licensed with the Major League Baseball Players Association.

Nate, this company, this is legit. His, his apparel company is for real, and all the Cubs players know him. He became friends with Ryne Sandberg, a golf buddy, before Ryne passed away. I mean, he's, he's, like, one of the, the key people that the Cubs work with now. Did you know someone at the MLB Players Association?

Uh, through, through, yeah, through my friend at CMG. He connected me. Pete connected me, yeah. But, uh, so I was one person removed. That's wild. But we were able to get him licensed and started that business, yeah.

Nate Spangle: No way. And I've been his lawyer ever since, too. The Obvious Shirts Company. Yeah. The Obvious... Great shirts.

That is hilarious, yeah. Like, uh, I just saw one they had on here that I loved where the state bird of Indiana is Larry. I got

Wes Zerkle: that license, too. Let me tell you, Larry's people, well, his, his manager, awesome. Awesome, awesome lady. I loved doing that deal. That was a lot of fun.

Nate Spangle: I need to get a... How do we get a Larry Bird Get in appearance?

Do you know a guy who can make that happen? Well, I know his manager. There you go. You gotta start somewhere. We gotta start somewhere. The Obvious Shirts Co. Joe Johnson. Joe Johnson. Crown Point region guy. Yeah, that's right. Is he a Wabash guy? Yes, he is. Of course he is. Of course he is. Of course he is. Um, amazing.

Wes, this has been so much fun. Our final question for you. Yeah. You've been all over. Yeah. Motorsports has taken you literally around the world. If you could shout it from the rooftops, if everyone could know, why do

Wes Zerkle: you call Indiana home? I'm ingrained here, man. This is, this is, this is who I am. It's, it's my...

We have a, we have a vibe. We have a personality here in Indiana, and the other thing is, too, is I... It's good and bad. I love how humble we are, but I also hate how humble we are.

Nate Spangle: Yeah.

Wes Zerkle: We are a great state. This is a healthcare mark, I mean, mecca. I grew up in Warsaw. If you broke a knee or a hip or something, it probably came from Warsaw, Indiana, you know, your replacement.

And, and we have so many really amazing things going on in this state, and we're so darn humble about it. Mm-hmm. Which is my vibe, my personality, but I also, like, we need to shout from the rooftops that we're way better than people... We're not a flyover state, and, you know, to paraphrase the old, you know, Indiana beach, there's more than corn in Indiana.

We know it, but substantially more. Yeah. And so I like Indiana because we're great at what we do. But we don't brag about it. Amen. I hate going to the coasts and everybody's talking about how great they are. God, it's exhausting. It's nauseating. I hate it. I love that we have people, like you've had your guests on, y- you would never know how great they are, how amazing they are.

Nate Spangle: Yeah. Until you ask them. I mean, like you. Like, you're like a hidden gem in motorsports. Well, thank

Wes Zerkle: you.

Nate Spangle: You're, like, working in the background on all of these different deals and different drivers, and you're just a good dude. Thank you. A spectacular conversation. So much fun. If there are people, one, there, there's like three pools of people I think that, that would be interesting.

One, brands. Mm-hmm, yep. People that are interested in the business of motorsports. Yes. Like, people that are looking to get into jobs and careers- Yes... in motorsports, and parents. Parents that have a child that wants to pursue a career in motorsports. I feel like those are the three, kind of, personas. I can help a lot of folks like that.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, especially the parents one. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I feel like it could be pretty easy to burn through a life savings. A lot of money. Oh, yes. Like, you talk about Christian's story of- Mm-hmm... you know, mortgaging their house to bet all-in on their kid's career. Mm-hmm. It's like, I am positive there are those stories that did not- That didn't work out

that did not end up a happy ending. That's right. That's right. Man. Yeah, that's great. I love it, man. Th- seriously, this has been so much fun. You have the best stories. From Chuck Berry to the Aerosmith car in 2001. Yeah. Learning about all the ins and outs of the business behind IndyCar, behind motorsports, so much fun.

Appreciate you for coming on, Will Buhrfeind. Thank you so much. This show is made possible by our friends up at Sweetwater. Whether you're looking to start a podcast or take your content to the next level, click the link in the description to see all my gear recommendations at Sweetwater. If you want a behind-the-scenes look at everything we're doing across the state, make sure you follow me on Instagram and TikTok @NateSpangle.

Thank you so much for listening and being a part of what makes the Hoosier State great. We'll see you next time here on Get IN-