The first ever campus for Herron High School was built by rocket scientist volunteers.
Yes. That's awesome. Yes. Herron High School did not open its doors. 'cause I was smarter than anybody else. I'm not. It opened its doors 'cause I didn't give up. What a gift to realize that.
I love the story behind the thing that's like a mixture of history and art.
It's like by heaven,
you didn't enter into a year, you entered into a atmosphere of justice and mercy. A world that ought to be a world we've never seen before.
From South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between. This is Get IN, the show focused on the Hoosier State and the incredible stories happening here today.
I'm Nate Spangle, founder of Get INdiana, and I will be your host for today's conversation. Hey there. Before we jump into today's episode, I wanna take a minute to thank the folks that made this nonprofit Spotlight series Possible Elements Financial as a credit union. They're a not-for-profit financial institution.
Built on the idea of empowering individuals to achieve financial success and they've been doing just that for 95 years, starting right here in Indiana. Now they're based in Indy and proud to support Hoosiers, but their reach goes way beyond state lines. They don't just talk about impact. They live IT Elements teaches more than 1000 financial wellness classes annually.
They pay their employees to volunteer and they donate 1% of net profits to causes that improve lives. So yeah, it made perfect sense for them to back this series because when it comes to supporting people doing good elements cares, learn more at elements.org/getin. That's elements.org/getin and use code getin Elements Financial, like a bank only better federally insured by NCUA.
Now let's get into this special non-profit spotlight episode presented by Elements Financial. Joanna Taft is the executive director of the Harrison Center in Indianapolis, where she leads efforts to support over 400 local artists. She operates eight rotating galleries and provides studio space to 43 artists.
She's also the founder of Herron High School. She founded that back in 2006, and since then, it has grown into a network of three schools, K through 12, that is focused on not only providing a great education, but also places an emphasis on developing the next generation of world-class citizens. Joanna's mission is to provide cultural solutions to community problems.
Today we're gonna be talking about her journey, starting the Harrison Center, and then a year and a half later Herron High School. Then how they branched into neighborhood work and the unforeseen circumstances that came from that. We're gonna round it out, talking by how they're using art in a meaningful way to build thriving, inclusive neighborhoods.
Joanna, welcome to Get IN.
Thanks for having me.
This is such a fun story. So what I have to know, I want this story to start with. When you discovered the property that is the Harrison Center, and for anyone who doesn't know it's in the old North side, uh, you know, between Broad Ripple and downtown Indianapolis.
It's a lar I mean, what's the size of the building?
65,000 square feet.
It's a 65,000 square foot building. Uh, today. It is a vibrant, thriving, incredible place. One of the most creative places I've ever stepped foot on foot in, in central Indiana. But was it that way when you first found and discovered this building?
So it was four blocks from my house, but I really wasn't familiar with it. It was, it, it didn't seem like a very welcoming place. Um, it was a social service center that was falling apart and, um, a lot of the VA building was vacant. Um, there was some remnants of a thrift store left. So my former boss from Indiana Landmarks told me, Hey, there's a nearly vacant 65,000 square foot building.
Four blocks from your house, you guys need to like bring it back to life.
Like, so wait, what was there, like if I were to walk up to the Harrison Center, and this would've been in 2004, 2003?
Yeah. It was called the Presbyterian Metropolitan Center. So, um, no, this was in 98.
Okay.
Um, so it had a thrift store.
Well, there were remnants of a thrift store, a food pantry, adult daycare, methadone clinic, children's. I think there was a, um, a preschool. Um, there had been lots of different things over 30 years in this building. Yeah. But. Really, they were running out of steam. It was a, it was a well-intentioned organization that was just running outta steam.
Who, who owned it at the time?
At the time it was owned by the Metropolitan Center, which was a nonprofit that was, um, providing social services to the neighborhood.
What was the makeup of that neighborhood in 1998?
Maybe 60% people of color and 40%, um, um, artists and people around the Herron School of Art.
How long had you lived in the neighborhood before you discovered that there was this 65,000 square foot building of four blocks from your house?
Well, we moved in and 91. Into a vacant house and we camped in one room. So I was a little bit preoccupied with the inside of my house. We had a three month old baby and, and we were just trying to, you know, get the plumbing working and the heat on and we didn't have a kitchen, you know, so we're things like that.
So I was kind of focused on home and then eventually saw, um, a little bit more of my neighborhood.
So your old boss from Indiana Landmarks calls you and says, this place is nearly vacant and just like. At that moment, did you know you had to do something? Like, tell, talk to me about the first time you went and saw and stepped foot in the building.
Well, I sent Bill. Bill went,
this is your husband?
Yeah. He went down there with some dogs and a friend and they, you know, they kind of looked at the building and 'cause parts of the building were literally, um, abandoned and homeless people were,
what was, what was the building in its past life like where was it?
What was it built as?
Oh, it was historic First Presbyterian Church. So Benjamin Harrison, the president of the United States, that was his church. And if you think about the, how the city grew. Um, so, you know the thing, eminent domain when you get pushed out, well, that happened to churches too. So as the city grew, this was actually the fourth location for that congregation.
So where does Benjamin Harrison live? Where his home was? Right there on Delaware Street. So he was, um, an elder in the church and he was chairman of the building committee. And he was like, Hey, the new church gets to be on my block. I get to walk to church. Wow. And so, um, the building, he actually died before the building was completed.
But if you go to the, uh, to Newfields, to the, in, um, in Indianapolis Museum of Art, there's a beautiful Tiffany window in the American Gallery that is from that building. And that was, that was purchased by his widow, Benjamin Harris widow in honor of him.
Wow. And this was 1903, right?
Yes.
Yes. So the building was constructed, uh, to house First Presbyterian Church.
Yes. Yes. How long did they stay in it?
Until 1970. And then as cities were changing? Yeah. Um, and, and they really did want to stay and serve the community, but as cities were changing. Um, their congregation just kept moving farther north. And so eventually in 1970, they closed the doors and it became the Presbyterian Metropolitan Center.
Churches continued to meet there. There've always been churches meeting there, but, um, the primary emphasis was on, um, social services.
Okay. So then it started to provide social services in that neighborhood. Mm-hmm. And then through, you know, 28, 29 years, you know, rise and fall and, you know, uh, it was struggling, I would say, to keep, you know, tenants in there and to provide those services.
Funding Funding was an issue. Yeah. And, um, and they had to close down.
Okay.
And so, um, this was a huge problem for our neighborhood when you have challenged buildings, right? Yeah. Um, and, and
that are historic, like very, very historic.
It's a challenge and an opportunity. Yeah. And so here's the scary thing. I did not have a background in the arts at all.
I was, I'm from dc. The only world I knew was. Government. I was an analyst. Right. Yeah. You know, my husband was working on Capitol Hill. I was working at the bottom of the hill and that's how we met. And I never thought I'd move to Indiana. And so when I moved here, I had to reinvent myself, which is how I started working for Indiana Landmarks.
And I discovered neighborhoods and I discovered community development, but I hadn't discovered the arts yet. Yeah. I loved art. I'm reasonably well educated and I'm reasonably well traveled. But, um, so I've seen a lot of art. But
Were you more interested in history then working for Indiana Landmarks?
I would love historic architecture, yeah.
But I'm really interested in bringing people together. Okay. That's what I like.
Yeah.
And so, um, I mean, I love a good old house. I love a good old building. I'm not a enough
to move into an abandoned
one. Yeah. I'm not a suburban girl. Okay. But, um, but what really makes me happy is bringing people together.
And what I found is that the arts is an incredible vehicle for doing that. And so being able to open the doors of that building and to welcome artists, you know, we started with four artists and very quickly grew to 14 and now we have 43. And, um, the building is, um, active 24 7. Yeah. And from that, it's become this amazing, um, platform to address other problems in the community.
Yeah. And that's kind of where Herron High School came from.
I mean, I'm so excited to dive into this. I have to know, are there any stories from when Bill you send Bill in there for the first
time? Oh yeah. Oh my goodness. Wait, I wanna tell you. Okay. So we had an intern, um, there are three apartments in the building and we, at one point there was one apartment that was functional.
And so I had a. 22-year-old, um, intern living there. And her job was to lock everything up at night. This was before electronic locks. Now everything I can do from my phone, but she had to walk around with a key and she was checking a door and she sensed something behind her. And she turned around and there was this wall panel, you know, those like, uh, three by three metal doors in some walls.
Like you open it and there's like mechanicals behind it. Well, this wall panel was open and she looked inside and there was a man in there and she ran screaming to her apartment and called me and I sent Bill down Bill and his friends. But, oh my goodness. So we gave the guy. 24 hours and then we screwed all the raw panels shut in the building.
I mean, the building had been vacant for so long, that section of the building that people were actually living in it and had found different pathways and different, um, I mean, is that crazy?
How old was your intern?
She was 21.
I mean, you could be 41 and that would be terrifying. I know,
I
know. Like because you, you she believed and you guys believed it was empty.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh. That, like, that gives me like the chills a little bit there. Yeah. So when you took it over, or, and actually I wanna know, how did you end up becoming the, like steward of this building?
My husband showed the building to an arts philanthropist named Jeremy Efroymson, who's an amazing human being.
And, um, Jeremy was looking for a project and so he actually bought the building. Um, and he owned it for about a year and he stabilized the building. Yeah. Um, it still had a lot of work that needed to be done. Yeah. But it stabilized the building, so that was such a gift. Yeah. And so then, um, his structure was more of a for-profit real estate investment and our structure was a non-profit.
And so, um, so when I took over this building that had still a lot of work to be done, but was stabilized. Yeah. Um, then that gave us a good basis for the nonprofit to start,
have this building. It's stabilized.
Mm-hmm.
What is the first thing you do and what was your vision for the space Like, like, you know, day one you wake up, you have the keys to this building, you have a community center that you're like, okay, we need to start doing something.
What do you do?
Well, you know, I lived in the city and there were a lot of social services, and to be honest, some of the first thoughts were. Maybe there needs to be more social services and maybe that there's, you know, the Metropolitan Center was here, they were struggling financially, but maybe we need to add some more of those.
But you know what? The neighbors did not want social services. Did
you go out and like canvas the neighborhood?
No. I read a newspaper article and it was talking about the building and the neighbors wanted an art center. And I was like, oh my goodness. I don't know anything about the arts. I mean, I love art, but I don't know anything about the arts.
That's scary. But maybe we should have an art center. And so that's what we decide to do.
Well, like how do you go about starting an art center? I
know,
crazy. Especially as not an artist's background, you know,
this is so embarrassing. I can't believe I'm doing this.
I love it.
Okay. So, but
it's okay because it like shows people that you can pick up new interests and skills no matter where you are in your
journey.
I, I like to start things I know nothing about. It's a lot more interesting that way. So I knew one artist in town. His name was Kyle Ragsdale. And if you don't know Kyle Ragsdale, you need to, you need to know him. Um, nobody, nobody owns just one. Kyle Ragsdale. Everybody has lots of Kyle Ragsdales.
Is he a painter?
He's a painter, yes. Yes. So Kyle was, uh, Kyle and I had done some, um, volunteer work together at the Oaks Academy, fundraising some, um, events. And so I called him, I was like, Hey, I walked, walked him through the building. Would you help me figure out how to turn this into an art center? And so we, we gave him an apartment in the basement.
He, he, um,
you gave Kyle an apartment.
An apartment, yeah. I paid him a hundred dollars a month and gave him apartment in the, in the basement. I'm, this is none of us. Were making money here. Yeah, lemme just tell you. And every morning he would catch four mice. Four mice. This building was a bad building.
Oh gosh.
Men hiding inside the walls and mice everywhere. So, um,
you a hundred dollars wouldn't be enough.
Yeah. And poor Kyle. Kyle has asthma and eventually the combination of the basement and the mice weren't working for him. And so we were able to give him, he moved out to a, um, to live somewhere else in Fountain Square where he's built a home.
And then, um, he had a gr he has a really great studio on our third floor. Nice. So if you come see the Harrison Center, go to the upper floor and see his studio, it's amazing. Yeah.
He's the first artist that comes
in.
He's the first artist. And Kyle, um, people think, oh, he's an artist. He does, he's not a business person, but this is what he said.
What we need to do is we need to do the kinds of shows that attract the Herron School of Art students, and then the professors will follow. If the students come, then the professors will follow, and then after the professors follow the buying, public will follow. And he kind of just said that to me in a conversation, but I'm, I paid attention to that.
So that's exactly what we started doing. And we started doing art openings. And the first art opening we had, we had about a hundred people and we, we were so excited, but within nine months we had a thousand people.
Okay. Wait, so how did you get the art to open that first show?
Kyle Ragsdale happens to be an artist.
Yeah. And so the very first show was called, it was in February of 2022 or 22? 2002. I started in November of 2001. Um, got Kyle in January of 2000. Two. And his first show was in February during the Super Bowl. It was called Love in the Time of Football. And his dad had been a football coach. And so, um, so that was the first show.
And it was all Kyle.
It was all Kyle.
And then you just like really hit the art students hard of like, Hey, come to the show. Come to the show.
Uh, well we only had a hundred people, right? So, um, probably all Kyle's friends, you know. Fair. And then over time then we just showed different friends of Kyle. 'cause Kyle's an artist was active in the community, so different, um, artists.
And then literally by nine months we had a thousand people. And I'm like, what is going on here? 'cause I don't know anything.
Is the way that you build up an art center is hosting shows and then having artists with studios in the space.
Yeah. So, um, several different strategies.
Yeah.
Um. One is, you know, show artists that have a, a following, right?
Yeah. Because then they'll come. Um, but another thing that we were doing, I had read the book, um, the Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell.
Yeah.
And like, we had no money. And um, and it was like, how do you start a movement? I'm like, I need to, I need to learn how to start a movement. And I remember reading about, um, mavens and how, um, you know, they're salespeople, they're connectors, they're mavens, and a maven is someone who's pathologically helpful, pathologically helpful.
So think about this. This is back in the day, you might not remember this, where I could only sp send an email to six people at one time, or my computer would crash. Yeah. And so I would sit there all day, the week of a show, emailing six people at a time, inviting them to first Friday. Okay. That's kind of crazy.
Okay. And then I realized I could identify 10 mavens. And I could email the 10 mavens instead. And they are pathologically helpful and they will take the information I give them and they can't help but tell a hundred people each, right? Mm-hmm. So that became my strategy.
Yeah.
Identifying mavens and working through mavens.
Yeah. And so, um, so literally we, we got to this point where we had huge crowds. We didn't really know what was happening, but huge crowds were coming.
Were, and was the building something that you were proud of or was it something like, Hey, like don't, don't judge the mice and the cobwebs and the potential man in the wall?
Like, or, or was it a space that you felt, uh, that people felt excited to come into?
So I'm a big fan of texture. So think about this. We live drywalled lives. Every Starbucks is the same. Yeah. You know, think about the spaces that you go in, in a strip mall, the, they're all clean drywalled, they look the same.
So I feel like people really need some texture, they need some authenticity. And in the early days when you came to the Harrison Center, you know, texture could have hitch in the face smells. You know, I used to say every studio was a hundred dollars, regardless of size, shape, or smell because, you know, they smelled.
Um, but we've, the building has really improved. But I really, um, want to prioritize keeping some texture and authenticity. 'cause I think people in their souls need that.
Yeah. So there was a little bit of grit to it in first there was a little
bit of grit. Yeah.
Okay. So you started, you know, identifying these mavens and getting these connectors of people mm-hmm.
To bring. Mm-hmm. And, and, and in less than a year, built up to a thousand person show.
Absolutely. Crazy. Yeah.
Okay. So, oh, as this is going on, you're starting to get some traction on the art side of thing. You identify another problem in the area. Yeah.
Okay. So a thousand people are coming to our openings and I'm feeling pretty darn good.
Right.
Even everything you
touch
turns the goal
year. Let's go. Even the magazine said we were one of the most exciting arts destinations. I like cut that out and turned it into stationary. I was so proud. Right.
Yeah.
So, um, then all of a sudden my started, my artists started coming to me and saying, I need to move.
I need to leave. I need to go to New York, la, Chicago. I'm like,
you were like launching them.
I, I'm like, what are you talking about? And they're like, Joanna, we cannot stay in Indianapolis because there are no art patrons. I wasn't launching them. I was losing them. Does that, there's a difference, right?
Well, one, you kind of gave them the, helped them with the initial platform.
Not gave them, that's the wrong word.
They had not been launched. They still were not feeling supported in Indianapolis. Oh. And so that's when the lights went off. I was like, shoot, shoot.
So they're like, if I really wanna pursue my dream, it can't be here.
Well, that's what they're saying. Yeah. But I'm like, shoot, I can't just throw parties for them.
I actually have to care about metrics I actually have to care about. Yeah. If they're selling, I actually have to care about if they're growing in their career, I have to provide wraparound services and support services to help them grow professionally. And that I was like, oh man, I need to really up my game.
Yeah. I have to move from party planner. Right. Yeah. To actually helping them. Um, grow as artists. So, um, I started thinking about it and it was really scary and I knew that people were coming and anecdotally, you know, we had people buying their, going from a poster to the first piece of, of original art.
That's cool. But it was just happening too slow. So I knew that we needed to be also be thinking generationally and we needed to think about how could we grow a new generation of art patrons. And so that's, um, that had happened when Mayor Bart Peterson Herron School of Art and Design, which was right around the corner from us in the old historic John Herron Institute building at 16th and Pennsylvania.
Um, the school had been there for, uh, had been trying to move to IUPUI campus for 30 years.
Was this a standalone school or was it part of IUPUI at the time
it was actually the original Indianapolis Museum of Art Building and it was called the John Herron Art Institute. And that was a museum. And an art school and they shared that campus.
And so in the sixties when men would have three martini lunches and make decisions without consulting the community, they decided to move the museum from 16th Street to the Lilly campus. Yeah. We're Newfields.
Is
today, we're Newfields. Is today. Yeah. And so they left the school penniless. They took the library.
Oh, they took the scholarship money and all that stuff. Went up to 38th Street and the school was left behind. So they affiliated, then they affiliated with IUPUI. Gotcha. And then they were trying to figure out, you know, they were teaching with buckets on their desks, you know, leaks. They weren't putting any money into the buildings 'cause they were trying to leave that campus.
So in 2005, um, I learned, or maybe 2004, I learned that Heron was gonna move to the IUPUI campus. And so then in 2004, um, mayor Peterson started something called some commission to figure out a new use for that building. And I was put on the commission. I was kind of scared. I'd never been on a commission. I didn't feel like I had anything to say.
So I sat in the back of the room. And people had ideas and they were really dumb ideas. Like,
gimme some,
I can't tell you because that would throw people under the bus. Oh, that's
fair.
Okay. Right. Yeah, yeah. But lemme just tell you in the back of the room, I'm like, that's not fundable. That's not sustainable.
And that is not something that people get passionate about, which are kind of my three tests for good project. Yeah. So I slowly raised my hand in the back and I say, I said, you know, I don't know anything about this, but there's this charter school movement. It seems like there's some, a funding stream there.
What would happen if we took this building? And we honored the art and education history of that building, and we started a high school designed to grow art patrons. We gave them a really rich art education, but also science and math and English so that they could be these voters and philanthropists and community leaders that we need for a healthy city.
Those world-class cities, world-class citizens. So really, to me, a world-class citizen and an art patron are the same. They're these well-educated people. If you think about, um, do you know what the origin of the liberal arts education is? No. So the Romans, uh, came up with it and it was because they needed their citizens to be educated so they could vote.
The slaves couldn't vote.
Yeah. Yeah.
The citizens could vote. So the citizens got this liberal arts education, this well-rounded education, so they could, they could. Be critical thinkers and yeah, we sometimes we act like slaves. We don't, we don't get a good education.
Yeah. And especially when you grow up too.
Like some people get to the end of high school or don't get all the way through high school and they're like not picking up textbooks or learning in that like critical thinking way and continuing to like advance their education forward.
Right. And so my thought was we need, you know, mayor Peterson wants world-class citizens.
Brian Payne wanted the creative class. Um, the Harrison Center needed art patrons IPS had a really bad graduation rate. What if we were to solve all those problems, the cultural solution? What if we were to create this idea of growing a new generation of art patrons and we integrated art? You can see how math and science development, tandem and political art and science development, tandem and political movements and cultural movements go hand in hand.
And so that was my vision. Um, and, um. In many ways the school surpassed my vision, um, in that, you know, I was founder and board chair and I retired from that in 2017. But this, uh, Janet McNeil, who's the CEO of the school, is just a rockstar and has, um, built and continued to build, um, amazing institution.
Okay. So you raise your hand in the back of this room on the commission that you're in and say to build, you know, uh, a high school for art patrons. Yeah. What was the immediate reaction?
People liked the idea and I thought they would run with it, and everybody looked at me and that was super scary.
How did it progress?
Because I know that you end up having to build the pilot in the basement of the Harrison Center, correct?
Yeah, it was gonna be condos. Um, the campus was gonna be condos and I didn't want it to be condos. I'm a neighbor. I'm wanting it to honor the art and education history of the site. And so, um, the city issues a request for proposals and, um, and so my goal is like, I don't have any money, right?
So every developer that responded to that request for proposals Herron High School was a part of every application. So in one place, we were in the main building in another place, we were in the museum building, and another developer had us in the basements of all the buildings. And so, um, when the developer who won it, you know, got the building.
At the campus. Um, we were gonna have the museum building and then he was gonna do condos in the other two buildings, and then the recession hit. Those condo buildings just kind of stayed empty. And um, and by this time Herron High School, had acquired the museum building. We weren't renters. We owned the museum building.
And then we took advantage of a good recession and we bought two more buildings and reclaimed the entire campus. So this campus that was going to be condos.
So you started at the like corner of 16th and Pennsylvania?
Yes. The buildings weren't ready, so we had to start in the basement of the Harrison Center.
So the year 2006, we had 99.
Yeah.
High school kids in the basement.
How did you get all of these developers to bite on the idea for an arts? Focused high school.
All of the developers were three, so only three people responded that I'm aware of. They needed to make money. So condos was how they'd make money, but they also wanted the city to choose them.
And so it seemed like doing something that good for the neighborhood, like a a school would be good. Let me just tell you, just because you're on a, developer's are, um, re re or
RFP,
their response does not mean that they're gonna stick with you. They just wanna get chosen, right? Yeah. And so each time it's, it's like a game, you know, like I, my game was getting on their proposal and the fact that I got on a three proposals, suddenly other people in the city started paying attention.
What is this? It's on all three proposals, what is Herron High School? They would never, ever have paid attention to us if we hadn't been on all three proposals,
which is like. I don't know. Something, it has to come from your history in, you know, like talking about being in DC like the, you know, politics route of things.
'cause sometimes if you just had a base of like being in the arts mm-hmm. You know, you're like, oh, this is a really good idea. But the intersection between execution and idea mm-hmm. And finding out how to actually put the rubber to the road and make these things happen that seems to be like a superpower of yours.
Like that's incredible. You got on all three proposals and then I'm sure you at, at the different stages. And you had to continue to be top of mind there.
This was the scariest time of my life and for a year and a half straight, I was scared to the core of my being, I was a walkin, scared to my core.
Why?
Because my biggest fear is humiliation. Oh my goodness. Like I was doing something for the first time in my life. It was very public. Right. And it had a very high opportunity for failure.
Yeah.
Right.
And you had just come off hitting a winner. With the Harrison Center, you know,
you talking about Yeah. But that was the, the, the Harrison Center was a winner, but it was such a small neighborhood thing.
Yeah. You know what I mean? This was a citywide thing. This was something I had to go to city council, get approved, and the mayor's charter school board and, you know, things that I was not equipped and didn't know how to do and didn't always do well. And so, um, so the, I, so I was scared of the core of my being.
And I, I have some stories about the mistakes. So what I learned though is that you can get a lot done when you're afraid and that really being afraid is irrelevant. And I didn't know that. I thought if you were afraid that meant you shouldn't do something or a good excuse for not doing something. But what I actually learned is that people that get things done are the people that have the grit, that stick it out and work through the fear.
Yeah.
The people that don't get things done, when fear happens, they just stop. And what a gift to realize that, because now I feel like I can do anything. Because I'm afraid of lots of things. Right. But fear is irrelevant because I didn't, Herron High School, did not open its doors. 'cause I was smarter than anybody else.
I'm not, it opened its doors 'cause I didn't give up. What a gift to realize that.
Yeah. Are you still afraid of public humiliation?
Well, it's not my favorite thing,
but like, I think that that keeps so many people on the sideline. Yeah. Because it's like, oh, even if it did succeed, okay. Like, turns out fast forward, you know, 20 years here in's three campuses serving tons of students, building this next generation of world-class citizens and art patrons.
Incredible. But like sometimes even if the greatest outcome could happen, there is a chance that a bad outcome happens and all of a sudden like, oh, Joanna's known as the person who's tried to start, but like. Who's going around town being like, oh, that failed high school 15 years ago. And like, I think that our internal dialogue just like keeps a lot of people sidelined from taking these chances on things that can be absolute home runs that can impact cities and communities and states and because they're scared of failing.
And I wanna go back to what I said earlier about, um, my three tests for good project.
Yeah.
So I don't think that people should just do anything, right? I mean, sometimes fear is there for a reason. It makes you question and so question, is your project fundable? Have you done your homework? Is it sustainable?
And is it something that people get passionate about? Mm-hmm. Like those are, those are my tests. And the school passed that passed those tests. Yeah. So therefore. Even though I knew that I would be humiliated because there were things I did wrong publicly, it was worth it and it was worth pursuing.
Yeah.
It's a really interesting story how you ended up on the RFP for all of those developers. Mm-hmm. And then how you ended up getting the buildings. 'cause I believe, so you start in the one building recession hits and the, these condos never get developed. Right. And so do the developers just like foreclose or bank, like, like what happens?
So Obama, the, the, the government because of the recession has some bailout money. Yeah. And so there was some money that was available for, um, nonprofits in schools and Yeah. Um, to. To do different things. And so we used that as a, as a way to, um, I mean the, the developers needed to be bought out, right? And I don't remember right now whether they were, whether they had actually gone into foreclosure.
They just needed to. Yeah, they needed a buyer. Right. So the, the time was right. And the, um, and it's interesting because, uh, that perspective, the Harrison Center itself, because we were in decent financial condition before the recession and went through the recession, we got stronger, um, Herron High School, got stronger through the recession.
So when COVID hit. Um, lots of people were afraid and I had 100% certainty that we would get stronger af through COVID because we were in good shape before. Yeah. And so that's just also been another lesson for me that these big challenges that come our way can be opportunities to strengthen.
Okay. So you have this building and you're, you're now, your name is on the line.
You're starting this, this high school mm-hmm. To create the next generation of world-class citizens and the building's not ready. So you have to start it in the basement of the Harrison Center. Oh
yeah.
This is what I'm curious, how do you go out and find, is it 99 year one?
Yes.
How do you go out and find 99 parents to sign their kid up?
For a high school in the basement of this building that was built in 1903.
Well, you call it the lower level.
Oh, yes, exactly. Like our studio here is in the lower level. Yes, absolutely.
Um, so, um, I had been involved with starting the Oaks Academy and, um, one of the, so we wanted Herron High School to be diverse, um, socioeconomically and racially.
And so we were afraid of putting out big ads in the paper because that could skew, uh, and not, and, uh, the population not have good diversity. And so we actually did what the oaks did. The oaks used church bulletins, YMCA bulletin boards, um, boys and girls club, um, bulletin boards, and they kind of did this grassrootsy networking.
Yeah. And that gave us an amazing diversity and, um, and a beautiful, uh, foundation.
Do you, do you remember the first student that was in on coming to Heron?
Actually, I remember a kid named Jess. And, um. Jess's, um, parents were divorced and his dad lived in Indianapolis, mom lived elsewhere, and he was able to move to Indianapolis and um.
And walk to school and be a part of a community and be with his dad. And his dad lived in Old Northside, which wasn't known for having great schools. Right. And before that, he'd never been able to, to live there. So that
was what was the public school was there? What? What public school would they go to? It
would've been ars, soul Tech.
Arsenal Tech. Okay.
Yeah.
Wow.
We had a bunch of kids that wanted to drop out when they were 16 and their grandmothers dragged them. And then we had kids that found us because they didn't wanna go to a big box school. Yeah. They didn't wanna go to a large school. They wanted a more personalized environment.
How did you decide the mixture of socioeconomic and racial diversity to create in this?
So, first of all, in a public school, you cannot discriminate against anyone. You can't give any preference. Yeah. And so, because my background had been with the Oaks Academy having been a part of starting that, which, which is a private school and was, had a, um, commitment to being at that time, you know, 50 50.
White and black. It's more diverse now. Um, yeah. Indianapolis has got more diverse and then too, um, they also have a commitment to having socioeconomic diversity. Yeah. So I had that as my influence, and so I kind of envisioned the rich and the poor. The suburban. The urban, the just bringing all the different entities Yeah.
That Indianapolis together. And so we kind of went with the 50 50 because that was
the
model. Yeah. That was the model. But even though you, and that's what we got the first year, but that's, you can't legally enforce that. It just, it has to be. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. You know, this is who we are.
Well, and if you're Yeah.
You're like building out this self-fulfilling prophecy and you're, you know, know where you're marketing the school. Yeah. You know, where you're hanging up. Flyers to be like, we wanna bring all these communities together to Yeah. Create this, uh, yeah. Diverse place. Yeah. So you get Was the, what was the goal?
How many students did you believe you could get? Year one,
we thought it'd be a hundred, but we had 99. Sorry. Public humiliation, I tell you.
It is.
It's, yeah.
Yeah. So you get 99 students. Yeah. First day of school. They're showing up at the Harrison Center and classes in the basement.
Well, two days before school started, the state building inspector told us that we couldn't start school.
Why? I don't know. He was being picky about something. And so, um.
You had to check all the like panels to make sure there were no people behind them.
You have to, you have to remember the Harrison Center is not your traditional school space. So we had to get variances and do different things to make it work.
Yeah. In fact, do you know that our campus, the high school campus in the basement of the Harrison Center was built out by volunteers?
No way.
So we literally, when all this is happening, and I'm trying to figure out how are we gonna afford to build out a temporary location, 'cause you know, we're trying to put all our money into the, main campus.
I get a call from a neighbor that lived across the street. She was a rocket scientist, and she said, Hey, is there
like a legitimate rocket
scientist?
Yes, Literally. And she said, is there like a Habitat for Humanity project that, you know, we have some professionals, rocket scientists that wanna do a Habitat for Humanity?
I was like, uh, you wanna build a high school? They literally raised the, they got the supplies from Lowe's and Home Depot. Every night they'd come and weekends they'd come and they'd build. And then Harrison Center got, uh, grants for, sprinkler system and accessibility in bathrooms. But
So you are telling me the first ever campus for Herron High School was built by rocket scientist volunteers?
Yes. Yes.
That's
That's awesome.
all female. Almost all female.
Let's go.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's so cool. Yeah. Like talk about again, the self-fulfilling prophecy of just making it happen. Yeah. And you know, I think that the piece that that is really powerful is that people just had to have seen your constant work of improving, like whatever these spaces were.
You know, whether it's the main campus, figuring how to push this high school forward, figuring out how to push the art center forward, like it's just incredible and people want to be a part of that.
I just think that community, when you have community can do anything.
Yeah.
And so, um, I'm always hoping that more people will join us because there's so much more that we can do.
Yeah. Okay. So how are you balancing the high school and balancing the Harrison Center? You know, like this is only, it's only a year and a half old doesn't mean Yes, it's stabilized, but it's not like, it's like, like taking your eye off the ball a little bit to like juggle these two plates.
So I would definitely say I was working two full-time jobs.
Yeah. Um, the secret of my success is location, location, location. So think about the fact they live four blocks away. My kids all go to school within four blocks from where we live.
Were your kids going to Heron
at that time? Um, so at the time, two were at the Oaks Academy and one was at Heron. So I had a freshman the first year of Heron.
Um, and then, um, I'm working four blocks from my house. The Herron High School's four blocks from house, so everything's four blocks from my house. So you have, uh, that cuts down on my commute and gave me some extra time. That's what I always tell people.
And that is like a cheat code for sure.
That's right.
Yeah. Like being able to like, you know, zip over there really quickly. Yeah. Versus like getting stuck and there's nothing worse when you're in a hurry, like trying to get somewhere and you're stuck in traffic and you're just like, ar
And so much of the, you know, neighbors were involved, artists were involved and there was so much overlap.
Yeah. And so it was easy to, you know, you could have board meetings on your front porch, you know, it's literally, and so those types of things just made it easier.
Dig me through how Herron High School goes from the basement of the Harrison Center to one than two than three separate locations all across Indianapolis.
Uh, we moved into the, the. Historic campus, which was amazing. And, um, over the years, um, there was so much demand. We knew that we needed to expand. We thought about starting a elementary school, but we hadn't, we didn't really know how to do that. But we knew how to do high schools and I love historic buildings.
And so John Watson, um, one of the other board members and I went and looked at, um, the old Heslar Naval Armory, um, which is sitting on the, uh, white River. And, um, it was still occupied by the military. I was like, oh my goodness, this would be amazing. We could start a Naval academy. The uniforms would be incredible.
Like, I'm, I'm dreaming about this. Nobody liked that idea, but, um, I really did think it could be a great spot for another high school. And so to create a pipeline for more diversity.
So this is Herron-Riverside High School now?
Yes. Yes.
But at fir, this was a naval.
It was a naval armory.
An armory?
Yes. Yes.
Like the, like the US Navy.
Yes. Have you? So during World War ii, a lot of top secret things happened there because, you know, you could have, uh, more secure meetings there than in DC
Whoa. Yeah. I mean, that would be cool. Like, like the Culver military competitor in Indianapolis. Like, it could have been the, the Riverside Naval
Academy.
This is one of my great life disappointments, is that I didn't start a naval academy.
Yeah. Could you see their little like uniforms and the little
hats? Oh my goodness.
Wow. Okay. So, so here, so Herron-Riverside High School becomes the second one,
right?
The second school,
right. And, um, and, and how that happened though was, you know, that you don't just get a naval, you don't just get a Naval Armory.
I started just walking into the, the governor's office, not the governor, but like his chief of staff. I was just like walking there randomly all the time. I became this lady that was always bothering them about this. Um, because
Was it still occupied?
It was still occupied, yeah.
Like the, the Navy was like, like how many, like, there were
still people going.
It was, uh, I think was national. I think it was the National Guard at that point.
Okay.
Yeah. And so, um, ba basically I had heard a rumor that we have too many naval ca uh, naval armories and that they, for finding had to cut down on them.
You and I run in different rumor circles, like I don't know where, I don't know if I would ever be in the circle where Yeah.
You know, I mean there's too many naval armories and we probably need to make a couple cuts. Like that's, yeah.
So I just keep bothering them and eventually they connect us to the general that was in charge of it, and we start pitching our idea of growing these world-class citizens.
So you go from pitching.
On this commission. So basically like the mayor to get heron to start a high school. Now you're pitching a general within the National Guard saying that we need this Riverside building to create another high school.
There was a, a armory board and it was a general that was in charge of the armory board.
And um, yeah, so we started networking in that direction and then eventually we figured out a way for the state to, um, acquire the building from the, that, that board. And then they gave it to the city and then the city, like they can't just give it to us, right? So then they gave it to the city, and then we worked with the city to then acquire it for the high school.
It seems like you have a way of making things happen and it's not just like. Okay. You're a billionaire and you can just go out and buy stuff.
I can't. Yeah.
What advice do you have on almost willing these projects to into existence and getting. The right stakeholders at the table and rowing in your direction.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Yeah.
Um, when you have grit, things can get done.
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How do you like work out, start to work out a deal with the city? Because I do think it's possible and people do it all the time. Like you hear about, you know, historic buildings that are bought and sold for a dollar if you commit to renovating X amount and putting it into it and making the community a better place.
There were lots of meetings with lots of people and lots of lawyers involved.
Yeah.
But we stayed at the table when it got hard, we didn't walk away.
Yeah.
And that's the difference.
Yeah. That's always so interesting. 'cause people think, oh, it's just the government. It'll never, it'll never. And then they just give up.
Yeah.
And it's like, no, you like walk in there and the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So then you open up number two at Riverside. What year was that?
Uh. 2017 or 2018. Okay. I'm trying to remember now. And then that was as soon as we opened that, that was when I stepped down as board chair. Yeah. And then after I left, they started, um, the third school, which is the elementary school, which is Right strategically amazing next to the Children's Museum in the old, um, uh, salvation Army building.
And so again, reusing a building that needed new life and bringing new opportunity to our students.
Wow. Do you know how many students Herron High School at the organization serves?
So here's a very fun fact. Um, they're celebrating their 20th year and they've had over 3000 students graduate. Isn't that incredible?
That's amazing.
Yeah.
So, so cool. Can I ask how you guys picked the mascots? Because they are some of the most interesting mascots in the state of Indiana.
Well, it is a classical school, so they're gonna look for classical figures in classical, yeah.
Yeah. Like were you in the meeting where they said. Like, like around the table, like okay, it could be the tigers or it could be the lions.
Yeah. And, um, so,
or like zeus's Thunderbolt.
Yeah. So I think that, um, is a combination of working with the kids to have them imagine, right. Look, what are you studying? You know. And then, um, the, the staff actually the CEO actually it,
because it's the Herron High School mask is the
Achaeans
Achaeans. Mm-hmm. Not sure quite what that is.
Well, um, they're like warriors.
Okay.
I dunno if that's politically correct to, to say, but
Yeah. Okay. And then it's the Herron-Riverside High School Argonauts, right?
I think so. Isn't that bad? But I think so.
Yeah. I'm pretty, 'cause I, I memorized every high school mascot in Indiana and I remember getting to these two and I was just like, what in the heck?
It's almost like, like Martinsville is the, uh, artesians just like water systems. Okay. And I'm just like, some people have some interesting high school mascots in there.
Yeah.
Okay. So as this is going up. You're growing the, this network of schools, you're also, you know, growing and expanding the Harrison Center and somehow finding time to sleep and raise a family and do all that.
You start to realize that the neighborhood, that the Harrison Center is you end up getting a lot of pushback for the work that you're doing. Can you take me through the moment where you started to get negative feedback about what you, the effort you were putting into that neighborhood?
When you build good schools, people wanna live near good schools, and so it tracks, um, families and attracts people.
Um, our neighborhood was being considered a, a gentrified neighborhood. We were also working with other, the city had asked us to work with other neighborhoods and we were using the power of art to elevate stories in those neighborhoods and, and. Encourage people to live in, um, neighborhoods that had a lot of abandoned housing.
So we actually were called gentrifier. And that was, um, it was really hard for me because, um, my motivation was let's have a stronger city. Let's have diverse neighborhoods, let's have rich and poor live together. And that's always been my heart. Let's have rich and poor educated together. Let's, let's help each other.
Where was the first place that someone that you got that feedback?
So most people didn't say it to my face. It was more, you know, behind. But I remember the, the first moment I got it, and this was when we had been asked to, uh, work at 38th Illinois at, in, uh, they called it Maple Crossing at the time. So it was.
A gentrifying initiative
that's just right by the, uh, that music venue.
Yeah, the melody in the Melody Inn. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so we were, uh, we were asked, the neighbors asked us to come and do, um, a popup gallery and popup coffee shop and that kind of stuff. And we tried to get a vacant building and nobody would let us use a vacant building.
So we built a vacant building, literally.
Oh
yes.
How wait, where
you can't stop me. So we took a parking lot and we paid an architect to design a facade, a building facade that a pod could, you know, one of these, uh, storage pods could connect into. And so, um, it was 30 feet wide and, um, it was maybe. 12 feet tall, I don't know, maybe 15 feet tall.
And then, um, it had this pod thing in the middle, and it was designed so you couldn't climb on it. And it was designed so you could see through it, so it wouldn't be a, a tract nuisance. Right. So we built this vacant building right. To activate. And, um, we would, we did all kinds of events up there. We, we taught, um, crochet lessons by the bus stop.
We did all kinds of crazy things. So we were, um, we were working there and all the, all the business owners were very nice. But I was talking to this, um, the owner of the barbershop, Cheatham & Moore, is that a great name? Cheatham & Moore.
That's great.
So Mr. Moore, um, was talking to him and he was always very polite to me, but I could tell that he was nervous about our presence.
And I, I was confused by that because it wasn't just a bunch of white people, but there were. Yeah, they were all artists. And I, I realized through talking to him that he wasn't afraid of economic gentrification. He wasn't afraid he'd lose his business or his property. He was successful. He was afraid of cultural gentrification.
And I'd never thought about that before. He was afraid that his story would be erased. He was a culture would be erased and that he would feel like a stranger in his own neighborhood. And that blew me away. That just blew me away because no one should feel like a stranger in their own neighborhood. And so I kind of started thinking about the power of art and how art can make people feel uncool.
We've all felt that, you know, art can, yeah,
well you don't really know what's going on or why this is like such a mind blowing thing.
I mean, I haven't you ever felt like you, you, um, you weren't as cool as the artists?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like,
so like art, art, we think about art as beautiful, but actually it can have negative effects.
You know, it can erase stories, it can change the neighborhood in a way that makes people feel like they're not wanted. And that's called gentrification. Like we see that across the country that artists and gentrification are tied together. And so I wondered if the flip side would be true. What if instead of using art to change a neighbor to gentrify it, what if you used art to know and love your neighbors and know and love your story?
No one loved your stories. So when you love something, you protect it. When you love something, you, you don't throw it away, right? You take every effort to protect it. And so what if we could do that with our neighbors and our stores through the power of art? And so our next door neighbors in old North side was, um, Martindale-Brightwood.
And so we went to our next door neighbors and we said, Hey. Where you are in the city, you are going to be gentrified. Look at the way the city is growing. It's coming your way. It hasn't gotten yet, yet it's coming. What would happen if we got here first and what would happen if we started using the power of art to elevate the story of Martindale-Brightwood, to elevate the story of the neighbors, to elevate the stories and to preserve culture.
And so we worked with them on this crazy concept called a PreEnactment You know what a reenactment is? Conner Prairie has a reenactment. Well, we collected our neighbors hopes and dreams, and we hired 15 theater companies the first year. And the set designers built, uh, 11 temporary buildings on the vacant lots and activated the vacant storefronts.
And we, we acted out, we used a three block long stage, every, every sidewalk, every street, every you know, piece of the, of the property. And we acted out a world that ought to be. We acted out a world of justice and mercy. We acted out our neighbor's hopes and dreams. It was incredible.
A PreEnactment.
PreEnactment.
Okay. Take me through where the idea for a PreEnactment came from and like the experience if someone were to show up in Martindale-Brightwood for the day of the PreEnactment show activation pop up.
Yeah. So the way it came about was we were trying to partner with the neighborhoods that the neighbors, and they were always talking about the good old days.
And I said to my staff, oh, maybe we should do a reenactment. We should reenact the good old days along 16th Street when it was an active business district that they were really proud of. And as soon as I said those words, I was like, shoot, that's, that's so dumb. Because the good old days really weren't that good.
Why are we always fixated on the good old days? The same problems we're struggling with now, were even worse back then. And my friend, um, Risa was sitting in the room and she said, not a reenactment. A preenact. And I looked at her, I was like, that's it. And so we ran with that, creating this. Uh, so when you go to Conner Prairie, you and you enter, you're entering a world of, it's like 1821 or something.
I can't remember the date. Yeah. So when you cross the Monon and you entered onto this stretch of, um, 16th Street, east of the Monon between 16th and Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Andrew J. Brown Avenue, you didn't enter into a year, you entered into a atmosphere of justice and mercy. A world that ought to be a world we've never seen before.
Okay. So the entrance of your PreEnactment was like right by a pro provider like pol tables
the mo. When, as soon as you cross the Monon trail, if you're on 16th Street and you cross the Monon trail.
Yep. Okay. And, and you're going East.
East. Okay. And ends at Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Andrew J. Brown Avenue.
Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Andrew J. Brown Avenue. Okay. Yeah. So I see those blocks.
Mm-hmm. I'm like looking at those. Yeah. I, I have it 'cause the oaks is right there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. So that was your stage.
Mm-hmm.
Like what did it feel like and look like when you crossed the Monon? The day of the PreEnactment?
Um, it looked better. So let me say two things. It wasn't about making it look better, but it looked better.
So, because we had built temporary buildings on the vacant lots, it didn't look like a broken smile. You know, when someone smiles at you, they're missing teeth. Well, that's what a, that's what a main street looks like when it's missing buildings.
Yeah,
right. It like a broken smile. So it didn't look like a broken smile because, uh, we had done infill buildings with the set designers, right?
Mm-hmm. We built buildings and then, um, we built a restaurant and we built a, theater and we built, um, an information center and we, um, built a barbershop and we built a stage and we built a, a farm stand, you know, so we built different things. And we also used, you know, the building, the two buildings that we built, um, up at 38th and Illinois.
We had saved those, so we brought them down and we used them for, um, an entrepreneur market place.
Okay. And so if someone came to the PreEnactment mm-hmm. They like walk across the Monon and like, people were like, actors were just like acting out what it would feel like to be a, a citizen in this community.
Yeah. So remember how when you go to Conner Prairie, you, um, the actors are supposed to just like be a natural conversation with you?
You know, so, um, we had a youth worker and she was walking around and talking. So apparently in that neighborhood, um, there were youth workers that, um, historically would help.
Raise the kids and, and help. Um, like they'd be, keep them active at the parks and keep them outta trouble. And so there was this youth worker that was walking around talking about the work that they were doing with the kids. There was an entrepreneur. The entrepreneur was so convincing. People wanted to invest in his, didn't really, he was an actor.
You know, they, they thought he was a real investor in his, his card. They, they give them, they actually wanted to invest with him. So there were all these, so you couldn't really tell who was an actor and who wasn't. I was an extra. Right. Anybody who came to attend was an extra, you got to go shopping, you gotta go to the candy store, you got to go to the farmer's market.
You got to, you know, all these different things. Yeah. What
was the biggest lesson coming out of the preen? Enactment in Martindale? Brightwood?
Okay. This is absolutely crazy. I thought we were preenacting, you know, to show what a neighborhood looked like to try on what a neighborhood of justice and mercy an equitable neighborhood looked like.
I had no idea that we would move the needle in any way. I just thought we would, I don't know. I, I thought it would be good to try maybe. Um, we acted at a black barbershop the next year. We got a barbershop, chop chop at 16th and Columbia been serving the neighborhood ever since. When the Oaks Academy, they had just moved there.
When we started doing this, um, at school, 26, there was a building in the back of the, uh, uh, door in the back of the building that was covered with Ivy. And I pulled the Ivy off and I was like, what is this? It says the Dunbar Branch Library. Nobody knew what it was. We Google it, we find out it was the first African American library in Indianapolis.
Technically we didn't have segregated libraries, but it was a African American school. African American neighborhood, African American library. The door was covered with Ivy. Nobody, no, not nobody, but people should, that should have known it existed. Didn't know it existed. So we acted out. Um, we, we collected neighborhood histories, um, oral histories in that space during the PreEnactment.
The Oaks Academy just, just dedicated that space as the Center for Black Literature. That would never have happened if we hadn't done the PreEnactment. Right? We preenacted using it to honor the neighborhood story and it's, and they're doing it. The third, a third example, and I have lots of examples, but the third example is Polk Stables.
So this is the building that is on that stretch that was not worth saving. And we used art to capture people's hearts and neighbors. Uh, they didn't know what they wanted it to be. They did not want it to be condos. They wanted it to be something that would honor their story. And today, that is where the Polklore Micro-Museum is, that the Harrison Center runs, and that's where this cowork at Polk Stables Coworking, which is in a magical place, um, bringing, um, serving Martindale-Brightwood.
Um, and. Really honoring the, the neighbor's intentions.
Incredible. Yeah. I will say, yeah, the COhatch and the Polklore Micro-Museum
and COhatch is no longer there, by the way. Oh, yeah. It's, it's Polk Stables. It's all locally owned, independent run. Yes.
Oh, there we go. Is uh, so does that mean you're, you're close with Greg Enas?
Oh yeah.
I feel like Greg, he told me about. The vision for Polk Stables like five years ago or something. Yeah.
Greg and I have been working on this a long time.
Yes, yes. I love it. Okay, so there's coworking at Polk Stables. Mm-hmm. There's the Polklore Micro-Museum. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which will take me through, take me through the history of, uh, this is a very historic building on that in the Martindale-Brightwood neighborhood.
Yeah. So, um, Polk Dairy was a big deal, dairy that, um, maybe was the, either the first to pasteurize in the United States, or the first to Pasteurize in Indiana. I've heard two different stories, but they were very, very well known. They were, um, innovative, progressive. They, they're logo was, um, Polk Polk Milk, always ahead.
And, um, Andy Warhol, the famous artist, New York artist, the only art that he did about Indiana was taking that logo and doing something lewd with it. So you can, you can Google that yourself. So we're famous for that. So he cared about Polk Dairy, and then Wes Montgomery, the, uh, famous jazz musician worked there for a little bit.
So there's some legit art history there at that site. So the, the building that is remaining is the stables building and the horses restored on the second and third floor, not on the first floor, the second and third floor. And they had these massive elevators that would take the horses up to the second and third floor.
So the building now, um, it was purchased by, um, Sajan George and Greg Enas and, and local investors with, who have a real heart for the neighborhood and wanting to develop an entrepreneur ecosystem here in Indianapolis where entrepreneurs are, I think that the, the phrase that they use is, I sacrifice and you win.
We win. I sacrifice, we win. So how do, um, government moves really slowly. Um, entrepreneurs can move quickly, and so we need entrepreneurs to solve the problems of Indiana. We need entrepreneurs, so they are building an entrepreneur ecosystem for white and black, bringing people together, sharing social capital, and developing, um, this new generation of entrepreneurs that are gonna solve the problems for our state.
Talking about activating art in meaningful ways to build thriving, inclusive neighborhoods. And you've done such a spectacular job at this. There's another piece, one final piece that I wanna talk about. Which is this initiative of highlighting Greatriarchs. So not the matriarch, not the patriarch, but the Greatriarch within these neighborhoods.
Take me through what that means and, and who a few of your favorite Greatriarchs are.
Oh my goodness. Yeah. So there's the real Joanna, that's Miss Joanna, and she miss JoAnna LeNoir. Um, we always talk about, I'm Joanna. She's Joanna, but she's the real Joanna. Yeah,
yeah.
Um, so she is a Greatriarch and she lives at, she just passed away, but lived in this little shotgun house, um, on uh, Columbia.
Well, what is a Greatriarch for people that may have heard the matriarch or the
patriarch? Yeah. We were getting to know the neighbors and we were hosting porch parties at their homes and, and learning their stories. And we always sent an artist along to these porch parties. And, um, this artist was going and sketching and um, and I didn't know what she was gonna do, but she came back and she showed me a painting that she had done based on one of her sketches that was six feet tall by four feet wide.
And she said, I'm gonna do a series called The Matriarchs of the Monon. And so she was going to these women, these women's homes for these porch parties. Well, the sixth film that I sent her to was not a woman, it was Willie Hawkins. And she was like, shoot, I can't do the matriarchs in the patriarch. That doesn't work.
I was like, oh man, we're gonna have to come up with something gender neutral. We came up with Greatriarch. Let me tell you, if we hadn't had that name, the program would not be as well. Loved as it is. I
mean, sometimes just a good marketing campaign like really ties it all together,
right?
So, so there's the great six patriot, six uh, paintings,
six paintings.
They became the Greatriarchs, the Greatriarchs of the long-term residents that help write the neighborhood story. It is not about who is the most famous or who did the most work, it's about the fact that every neighbor has a story that deserves to be heard.
Yeah.
And so it reminds us whether you live in a cul-de-sac, whether you live, um, in Fishers, whether you live downtown.
We need to know and love our neighbors and know and love their stories and honor the older neighbors in a neighborhood that are, that are feeling some social isolation as a, as the neighborhood gets older or younger people move in and don't know them. Right. There could be a, a neighbor that used to run the neighborhood association.
And they're older now, and a new family moves in and new families move in and the new families are always getting together with the kids and they don't realize what that older neighborhood contributed. Right. So they're feeling like a stranger in their own neighborhood. So the Greatriarch program combats this cultural gentrification.
It elevates their stories through art so that they don't feel erased. But during COVID, the matriarch started dying.
Oh.
I mean, we lost four of 'em.
Oh gosh.
And so we real, when Polk was getting ready to, we were a year away from Polk opening, that's when we decided to start a museum at Polk. And so we started collecting oral histories from the neighbors, and we recorded them and we collected artifacts.
So the very first artifact we got was a rolling pin. The third artifact we got was a piece of a tree. I'm like, what on earth am I gonna do with all this stuff? Right. Um, so we, do you know what collage art is?
Yeah. We like put a bunch of different things into
like, papers Like 2D Yeah. But like paper glued on paper.
Yeah. Well, do you know what assemblage art is? It's collaging with things.
Okay.
So, so when you go into the Polklore Micro-Museum, which if you haven't been, I want give you a private tour. Everybody, everyone, everyone, everyone gets a tour as a preparatory. Yeah. So, um, so anyway, the, when you go into the walls of the museum, um, it is collaged or assemblage is, it is plastered with, with assemblage art.
So the rolling pin is woven into the pin of this, the
piece of the tree.
Yeah. No, literally. And then the magic is you take your phone and you swipe that piece of a tree and you find that the story of Miss Lula and coming home from Kroger and watching the big old growth tree being cut down by the city.
Now, it technically wasn't in her yard, it was in the right of way. And technically they were trying to find the cheapest way to run new lines to the new apartment buildings. She felt like, you know, a very important part of her life had been taken. Mm-hmm. And um, and so we think about as built neighbors are, develop neighborhoods are developing, how do we work with the existing neighbors?
How do we learn their stories? How do we, um, did the tree have to come down? Was there another way to do it? You know, and so we bring up, they share their stories, whether it's the rolling pin, learning about the sweet potato pie lady, whether it's the red shoes that were donated. They talk about, um, this woman's first day at first job at a police department and what she did with her first paycheck.
So all these stories are, have been donated and they go with artifacts and you use augmented reality. To capture those stories.
This is maybe my, where I've fallen short on being the best art patron possible is I love the story behind the thing. And sometimes when you just, like when you, I'm looking at like a painting, I can't, I don't know the story, but anytime there's an artist that's there, like at a show and like explains like, this was a time in my life when I, you know, x, y, Z thing, then I just like, oh, I gravitate towards it.
Uh, versus, you know, when I just look at a painting, I'm like, oh, that's really, you're very talented. But I love hearing the story behind it. So being able to swipe my phone and see the augmented reality and learn about these stories, that's like a mixture of history and art that's like by heaven. I love it.
I can't wait to come check it out. We've come towards the end of the show. I mean, there's so many different amazing things you've done. I, I. Love sitting down to talk with you. I could do it for like three hours 'cause I just find it so fascinating. We do have to, we're gonna wrap it out with a few Indiana questions, some rapid fire stuff, and then obviously ask the same three questions that we ask to every guest.
So this question is brought to you by our friends at JC Hart. They're a leader in creating enjoyable living experiences at apartment communities all across Indiana and beyond. Check them out at home is jc hart.com. So my question for you, Joanna, why do you call Indiana home?
So Indiana's this place where they accept outsiders.
I came from DC and I've been welcomed in and people haven't said no to my ideas and have gotten behind me. So I feel like if you wanna make a difference in the world, if you wanna be a part of something, do you feel like. Yeah. You want community. You come to Indiana. Yeah.
Why did you guys move into an abandoned house?
We thought it would make our parents upset. We worked so hard to get our families to this and you did this. Uh, we love historic architecture and we wanted to be a part of building something. Yeah, yeah.
If there was one historic building in all of Indiana that you could just snap your fingers and turn into something different, what would it be?
Oh my goodness. Do you know that there is a mini hessler, naval armory in Michigan City, Indiana? Same thing, but smaller. And it's on the, the river that leads the Lake Michigan. It is awesome. And I would, I would love to,
yeah,
I'd love to start another charter school there.
Oh, on the road. Do you ever just look at the, the, I mean, obviously you used to work at Indiana Landmarks, so I'm sure you do, but like the auction site, I've talked about this like 10 times.
Like I love just looking through there and seeing like all the different cool stuff.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah. It's like I don't need that $3,000 old schoolhouse, but I'm like thinking about it. I
know
what neighborhood within Indianapolis has the craziest history that no one knows.
Every neighborhood has crazy history.
Yeah. The stories that are there,
but what one is like the most, like no one ever talks about. This neighborhood.
I think about central state and the, you know, where the state mental hospital was and the different stories that must be, um, buried there. You know, that's where the medical history museum is, where they have all the brains in the jars from all their experiments.
And where's
so
Central State? Central State. If you have not been there, uh, that would, you should go visit that medical history museum there.
Okay. Medical. The medical history, like where would this be?
Um, central State's on the west side. Um, oh yeah.
Like out past the zoo.
Yeah. And so they're redeveloping it now, uh, with housing.
Did they turn the building into something?
So there were multiple buildings and some, one is an event center now one is still the Indiana Medical History Museum. Um, one is been turned into like a co-working, living, uh, it's not co-working, it's co-living. It's like a dorm and like the bathroom's down the hall and a swimming pool.
It's like a college dorm that anybody can live in. And then there's a charter school there.
It's so fascinating to see all the like old large buildings. Yeah. And like, you know, ways that you could revitalize or what, what's the word?
Imagine.
Yeah.
Imagine what could be there. What's the possibility? Yeah.
What could we preenact there? What could we create together?
That's so cool. Oh my goodness. I love that. And I, I think that, you know, I have an appreciation for new stuff too. I think that some of that's really cool, but when people can take something that was old and historic and has this story and figure out how to make, breathe, imagine new life into it, it just fires me up.
Okay. Besides the Harrison Center, besides the Herron School, and besides the Naval Armory, are there other really cool historic spots that have new life? Across the state of Indiana that you've seen?
Well, I know that they're, they're dreaming about the old, uh, you know, the big prison where they, in Indiana where they, you know, people get killed.
Well, like the death penalty,
where's this at?
Indi in Michigan City, Indiana. So they're, they've done a study on how to relocate that prison and, and to redevelop that into something else.
Yeah.
Um, I don't know what it would be like to have a condo in what used to be, you know, that. Yeah. But they're, but they're, um, they're working on dreaming of, of what, um, that site could be.
It's,
yeah. Are there other ones around indie that you've seen like similar like Polk Stables or like other buildings that are historic that have these like new vibrant energy in them?
The Coca-Cola Bottling Plant.
Oh, I mean,
that Bottleworks like amazing.
Yeah.
Um, and then it gives me. I think it's the same developer that's doing Circle Centre.
It gives me so much hope.
Yes. And that's like, I mean obviously Circle Centre is like a very newer history. Mm-hmm. But like, I love that they're getting out in front of that and not waiting for it to become decrepit and like, you know, lose any energy at all. 'cause it is like such a key
Yeah.
Portion of our, our downtown.
Yeah. That is so, so, so cool. Do you have advice for community builders, whether they're urban here in Indianapolis, or maybe they're rural and maybe, you know, you live in a rural Indiana city and you want, you know, you have vacancies on your main street of how they could start to make an impact and how they could start to bring some change to their local community?
Yeah. I would start with bringing people together because magic happens when you bring people together. Um, I think, you know, I'm a porcher, right? I sit on my porch and from 2007 to 2000. 20. I sat on my porch every Sunday from three 30 to five with my neighbors. And it was through imagining with them that we created all kinds of things, right?
I don't operate in a vacuum. I, I create with others. And so I feel like these small towns, we think about small towns as, oh, they must porch, you know, they, they have great community life. Well, even our small towns have been affected by modernization.
Yeah.
Right. Like the reason, you know, my grandparents Porched, 'cause they didn't have air conditioning right?
But then my parents never sat on a porch 'cause they had air conditioning and they had a backyard. Right. So, um, what I, what I think we need to do is we need to encourage our small towns to first be that small town that we imagine them to be. Know your neighbors. Be together. We have the strongest Hoosier hospitality.
Yeah.
In our hearts we say we wanna live in the city, we wanna move to New York. But real, I mean, we say we wanna live to New York, but in our hearts, we really wanna live in a small town. Yeah. We really wanna be known and loved. Right?
Yeah.
And so if the small towns can be the best small towns they can possibly be, that's the first thing.
Do it by porting. Do it by gathering, then build a movement and they can preen, enact preen. Enacting is something that anybody can do there. There are days that I'm in a bad mood and I can decide I'm gonna preenact. One time my husband came home, I don't know if you have time for this.
I do.
Oh my goodness.
This is a personal story. Yeah,
let's hear it.
We're like in the middle of preen, enacting, planning. Preen. Enactments. And my husband was late and I texted him. He didn't respond, kept texting him. He didn't respond. So I'm like, oh no, he's, you know, the car broke down. Oh no, he's dead. I'm like playing his funeral.
I can't decide if I'm mad at him or if I'm sad, you know? I'm like, whatever. So he comes home and my husband's kind of an opposite. He's amazing. He's like the smartest person I know, but he's kind of an opposite minded professor. And he comes in and I am ticked. I am ticked. And I'm getting ready to lay into him, right?
And then I say to him, wait, stop. I'm gonna preenact. I actually married you 'cause I love you. I like you, right? And I'm gonna, I'm not gonna ruin our night together.
So you preenact you getting over it.
I'm gonna preenact that. There's another way of solving this. I did. I literally did that. And so what I'm saying to you is that this is, this is a tool that we can use no matter where we are.
We can stop and say, I don't have to be like that. I don't have to be ugly. Me, I can actually preenact a different way. And so our small towns could do that.
Yeah.
Um,
I think that that is a piece too, that people can take for granted and that takes a little bit of effort, like putting yourself out there.
You live in a small town, actually know your neighbor. You live in a neighborhood, you should know your neighbors. Like I should do a better job. I do not know all of my neighbors names, not even their first names. Like, I could do better about that. And just like spending some time, even if you're just out washing the car or whatever, like, Hey, how's it going?
Also, I've never introduced myself like, I'm Nate, it's nice to meet you. And then you're like, oh, that's Dwayne down the street, or whoever it might be.
Yeah. And you know, I'm gonna confess. So I was neighbor, neighbor, neighbor, neighbor until COVID and in COVID. So my husband's from Michigan City and in COVID we bought a house, a little house, a smallest house in Michigan City and we go up there a lot now that, that has drastically affected my neighborhood life in Indianapolis.
I don't know how people do that. Like, you know, when you're talking about location, location, location. Mm-hmm. I was able to do all those things that I did because everything was in four blocks and I was always here.
Mm-hmm.
And so
have you, have you porched up in Machel?
Yes, we porched. Yes.
So you now you have two communities then?
Yes, I do.
I do think that, like my, my grandma like in her like eighties and nineties and she was born in 1926 and I just felt like she, but probably 'cause you were less connected to your other people 'cause you didn't see what they were doing on social media all the time. So you were forced to connect per, like, physically with your neighbors.
Like my grandma would just like zip over to her neighbor's house and just like, you know, drink some afternoon coffee and hang out.
Right.
And like, I would, I just have not. I've done that because I can scroll and be connected to my other friends that are not physically connected to me. Does that make sense?
It makes total sense. So we have to fight it. We have to preenact that. There's a different way
you have to preenact being in like the, uh, the, uh, what, uh, the Mayberry neighborhood, you know, like That's right. Getting out and talking to your neighbors and oh, that guy or gal in the corner is such a jokester, like blah, blah, blah.
Like Yeah, I love that.
Yeah.
Wow. And I think that, yeah, in small towns, if you were, let's say if you had like a five year plan to make, to really push your small town forward, it would start with, and not just, like, sometimes you think, oh, hire a food truck or attract a brewery to open up here and all the problems we're gonna solve.
And it's like, well, how could you be the best neighbor possible? And could that be a domino effect to create more great citizens that then, like everyone's coming together for the. The food truck night versus like using the food truck as just the bait to get people out there and you're not gonna talk to them.
It's all, life is all about relationships.
Yeah.
Right. And so start with a building those relationships. Yeah. And that will build your city.
Yeah. I mean, think about, you know, you live in a 10,000 person town, you meet a, you meet a hundred new people, you just met 1% of the population. Like that's significant.
I love it. This is so fun. You've actually done a lot of interesting things. And if you could go back and give your 22-year-old self some advice, what would that be?
I learned you could get a lot done when you're afraid. Yeah. And I wish I had known that earlier.
Yeah.
Um, it's all about grit. You don't have to be the smartest person.
Just don't give up. Most people give up.
I mean, that's the mic drop right there. We have the same three questions that we ask every guest that comes on. They're all about the state of Indiana first. What's something the world needs to know about Indiana?
They need to know that we have Lake Michigan and it's like an ocean.
People surf there. Um, it has the best shelf ice. Um, most people just don't understand how great Lake Michigan is.
Absolutely. Okay, here's your opportunity to shed some light on a part of the state that more people need to be talking about. What is a hidden gem in Indiana?
Big Frank's Sausage.
Tell me more.
I'm intrigued.
Okay, so we have been Google, we have been exploring the industrial part of the region, right? So we go up to Michigan City and we love the lake and we love the beach. But lately we've been heading east, or I'm sorry, west towards Chicago. And last week we discovered, um, in East Chicago, this Polish bar.
That is amazing. And we got all this Polish food and I'm not, I haven't had a lot of Polish food. It was amazing. And I
Oh yeah. Big Frank's Sausage
in, in East Chicago,
who's ready for a Polish. That's awesome. Okay. What was the go-to order at Big Frank's Sausage?
I got the Warsaw Plate.
Oh. Okay, this is in East Chicago.
So, you know, in five years when everyone goes up to catch a, a ham and bears game. Exactly. You can stop by East Chicago and visit big Frank's sausage. Incredible. Okay, finally, this is where we get guest recommendations, uh, and, and where we discover other Hoosiers that are doing impactful things. Who's a Hoosier?
We need to keep on our radar. Someone who's doing big things.
I'm gonna go for Steve Coyle. So Steve Coyle is somebody I did not know about six months ago, but he is now the manager of Polk Stables and he's an ecosystem builder.
Okay.
So he's thinking about how do entrepreneurs need to be connected? How do they need to share their resources?
How they, how do they need to grow social capital and meet investors and, and what do they need to actually advance in their field? When I think about Indianapolis getting to the next level or any city, you need these ecosystem builders that are connecting people and helping them grow so that a movement actually starts.
Yeah.
So I'm really curious, having watched Steve's gifts, I am curious in five years, what is. I, I'm very interested in measuring what he will accomplish in five years and how that will change Indianapolis.
This is Steve.
Steve Coyle.
Amazing. Well, I do have to give a shout out to, uh, Suzanne and Ian. Uh, Ian has been, uh, just an awesome, I dunno, mentor slash friend, uh, a past life.
He, he and I both worked together at Powderkeg and he did tell me that you were one of the most interesting people and that your husband is one of the most interesting people. And like a story for another time on another podcast about the crepe cart and the whole thing that, that ended up getting you a son-in-law.
So here's the crepes, right? Um, I do wanna say it has been so much fun learning about. All the cool stuff going on at the Harrison Center. I do wanna say, are there initiatives that people could come and plug into and get behind? And I mean if they, besides it coming in and taking a tour, but are there upcoming events or ways to come and
see some
of
the art?
Yeah, you can. You can always come to a first Friday and people always say, when's the next first Friday? It's always on a first Friday. Right.
Easy.
Like gotta come. You gotta see our secret underground koi ponds, our karaoke elevator.
Yeah. Like these are crazy cool things like you have.
human hamster wheel.
Yeah. I, and like we, we miss getting into all the cool parts of the Harrison Center, but there are just very interesting, the way that you think about spaces and the things that you create there are just so fascinating. I
want people to use all five senses when they're at the Harrison Center.
Yeah. In the elevators.
There's like a karaoke machine. Yeah. Rocking and rolling. You can belt out your favorite song.
Yeah.
Like, that's so fun. Uh, okay. So First Friday.
First Friday.
Are there other big, I think there's some summer initiatives
coming up. Yeah, we have, we have, uh, actually Ian is on the board of Bloombox, which is our big music festival.
And it's run by interns with an advisory board of professionals like Ian. Yeah. Um, which is amazing Box. Bloombox is the third Saturday in, in June.
All right. I love that. It's not dates. I love that. It's like first Friday, third Saturday in June. Do the math on what those dates are.
That's right. That's right.
Yeah. Okay.
Um, and then in August we'll be having FoodCon, which will also be the first, uh, Friday in. In August. And um, and then we'll have, so we're gonna do another PreEnactment, but we haven't chosen the date yet.
Oh. Do we know
where to, we're thinking about a Wednesday. What do you think?
Oh, I don't get fired up for
Wednesdays.
You don't get fired up.
Yeah.
What about Tuesday?
Uh, less fired up later in the week. I feel like, you know, going out and experi.
Yeah. So we're still, we're still setting the date for the PreEnactment.
Okay.
And we actually, um, do
we know what neighborhood or where at?
Um, so we actually, uh, last year we did a PreEnactment at Polk Stables.
And we preenacted Polk being the neighborhood partner. It needed to be.
Did you bring a cow in?
We did.
Heck yeah.
It started with a parade down the Monon on it ended with a feast. It was amazing.
So funny. Yeah. So it's this one.
Um, this one is in development, but, but we're TBDI did learn how to turn bicycles into horses.
Oh.
So we might have a herd of horses running down the Monon on.
Well, if you guys are in the mood for extras, you need a a horse rider, let me know. Okay. I, I gotta come to one of these PreEnactments. It seems like fun. Okay. Thank you for all the work that you're doing. It is. I just find it so fascinating.
I could learn about all the different things and, and I love that you follow curiosity. A lot of people, you know, read and, and are really well versed in thought and not necessarily in action. And I love that you blend the two of those together where it's like, oh, I was reading about the charter school movement and then all of a sudden you're like starting a charter school.
Or I was, you know, reading about historic buildings and I'd always been interested in architecture and now I am the steward of a few of those different buildings. And I just think that that's so cool. And your lesson on like, like. B being afraid but doing it anyway. Like, I just think that fear as a motivator versus as a limiter is just so powerful.
And if people can use, uh, I mean a little bit of this story to go out and make their neighborhood a better place, like the state of Indiana will be far better for it. So thank you. We need more Hoosiers, like you doing amazing things. Um, and yeah, go check out all the cool stuff at the Harrison Center at Polk Stables.
And get plugged in. Thank you. Alright, that's a wrap on today's nonprofit spotlight, and I hope you're as fired up as I am about the work being done by amazing leaders right here in Indiana. Big thanks again to Elements Financial for sponsoring the series as a credit union. They're not-for-profit and built on the idea of empowering individuals to achieve financial success.
That's why they've been empowering Hoosiers and folks around the globe for 95 years. They're based in Indy, but they serve members in all 50 states and more than 50 countries. And they're serious about giving back, teaching more than 1000 financial wellness classes every year, offering volunteer hours, and donating 1% of net profits to causes that matter.
So if you're looking for a financial partner that's rooted in purpose and proud to serve, check out elements.org/getin. That's elements.org/getin and use promo code getin Elements Financial, like a bank only better federally insured by NCUA. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time right here on Get IN.
