He Quit His Dream Job After 9 Months… And It Paid Off

Everybody wants to belong to something and they want to display symbols of that belonging. Flags are intangible ideas we have.

Feel so strongly about something that a flag you feel an immense sense of pride. If a state wants to change their flag and we can talk about this, people go holistic. No way.

You can cut all this out if you want.

No, no, no. From South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between, this is Get In, the show focused on the Hoosier State and the incredible stories happening here today. I'm Nate Spangle, founder of Get Indiana, and I will be your host for today's conversation. A quick shout out to our friends at Pence Media Group, one of PR Dy's top agencies. Their team of experts help brands make serious noise right here in central Indiana. Right now, PMG is proud to be supporting Hancock Health as they approach their 75th anniversary.

For Hancock Health, this isn't just another anniversary, but one that showcases 75 years of trust, care, and community impact. Hancock Health was recently recognized by Indianapolis Business Journal for their excellence in healthcare. Keep an eye out for how Hancock Health celebrates this milestone anniversary. PMG is going to make it loud. For more information on how PMG can make your brand loud, visit pence media. com.

Most neighborhoods are built to sell homes. Aberdeene was built to build community. It's Indiana's first Agrahood, a wellness lifestyle neighborhood in Center Grove designed around a simple conviction. Life is better when you actually know your neighbors. In Aberdine, that's not an aspiration. It's a texture of daily life.

Family stopping at the fence to say hello to the Highland cows on their way to school. Neighbors trading sourdough starters after an evening at the barn. Kids who know every trail by name. The homes are custom and carefully built. The trails are wooded and peaceful. in Aberdine Farms, a working farm right inside the neighborhood.

That means the seasons here are something you actually live in, not just drive fast. If you've ever wanted to live somewhere that feels like it was designed for the way people were meant to live together, Aberdine was built for you. Visit aberdineliving. com to schedule a tour. Now, let's get into the episode. My guest today is Michael Green, and he is the founder of Flags for Good, a purpose-driven flag company that donates a portion of proceeds to social causes.

Now, he has a background in branding and storytelling and previously worked in digital media for Texas A&M athletics while building Flags for Good as a side hustle. Green is also a public speaker and a twotime count of two time TED X presenter focused on identity, symbolism, and how flags can build community. I'm really excited to dive into there's there's a fancy word that we're going to get into early on in the show, and I can't wait to reveal that to you. We're also going to learn about your newest announcement of a huge partnership as well as innovations coming in the flag technology space. Oh, yeah.

Michael, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much, man. It's I'm so excited to be here. I love the show. Like,

you and I have chatted in the past, so it's

high time we get to hang out on the on the pod.

Absolutely. I mean, one, there was a recent trip that you took that I just had to get the details on. So, for content, you decided to start like kind of a series where you fly or go somewhere and trade flags with people and it it had you take a one-day singular day trip to Ireland.

Yeah, I had some flight credit sitting around. St. Patrick's Day was coming up and I was and then of course that we have the new direct flight to Dublin which I wanted to take and um you know do the whole bit where you don't have to go through customs in America. It was great. So I was like well shoot I've got a free weekend. I've got flight credits. Why don't I just go over there do a flag swap? Maybe the video will go well. I don't know. But I I love travel. Um don't get to do it as much as I used to. So it was sort of a fun and I didn't sleep. I literally went there for 3 4 hours and flew right back.

You flew to Dublin,

traded the flags,

traded flags, drank a pint, and came home.

The pint was completely unplanned. Um the the people who run that company that I got to hang out with, they're so cool. Like I you know, they were thought I was crazy and then I got You are crazy.

Yeah. I got over there and and they were like, "Well, I mean, do you want a pine or something?" And I was like, "It's 11:00 a.m. If

if they serve Guinness at 11:00 a.m., sure, why not? Of course,

I don't need to be back at the airport for another hour. So,

dude,

yeah, it was great.

I mean, that is one domino in recent times of crazy things you've done, but a little bit of this journey is crazy when you talk about, you know, growing up and you're not from Indiana originally. You grew up in Texas, correct?

Yeah, I grew up in Texas most of my life in College Station, home of Texas A&M. So, grew up around Texas A&M, went to college there, then worked there for like a decade. So, I mean, I was in in the cult of Texas A&M and then was leading the cult of Texas A&M for a while

in athletics.

Well, I worked in the marketing for the university for most of that time.

Yeah.

Always wanting to get to athletics because like,

man, if you if you're not in the higher ed space, it's like two different camps. There's the academic side of a university and there's the athletic side and they don't like each other.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So,

what years were these? So, I graduated in 2011 and then uh I

mean, talk about a pretty fun time to be uh an Aggie.

I missed the entire Johnny Manzel year. I I so I graduated in 2011 and then I went on a trip around the world and I traveled and I used so I when I was a student there, I worked in the marketing department, right?

Yeah. So, in the year that I was gone, Johnny Manzel, like Heisman year, the best year of Texas A&M football ever, I'm over in Cambodia watching him beat Alabama on a shitty Wi-Fi. Can I caution this podcast? Like a shitty Wi-Fi stream and I'm watching the greatest moment in Texas&M history.

My friends are like in New York doing Times Square billboards and I could have been working on that, but instead I was like overseas. So yeah, that I missed the whole thing.

I mean, there has to be some interesting story. Why did you end up going around the world?

Um, this was a whole lifetime ago, but I was a a missionary at that time.

No way.

Yeah.

So, you end up graduating from Texas A&M. You miss the entire crazy season with Johnny Manzel. Like, the stories that come out of that are just wild. I know. I know. Like, and you talk about like someone who's gone on a total journey, you know, like his experience has been crazy.

Did you watch the documentary about

I haven't watched the documentary. You should. Is it good? Well, I feel like now like I kind of

you were rooting for him and then he kind of like some true character gets revealed there and then like kind of like a full character arc now where he's like I'm just a guy who used to play football.

Yeah, I kind of like that about him. Like yeah, he's very polarizing and he was when he was at&m too. Um but yeah, I mean now he's I think because he's owned it and he's just like yeah I am who I am and that's what happened. Yeah, I I kind of like respect that now. And then I saw him on TikTok the other day opening Pokemon cards, I believe.

Which there's a whole business in that,

bro. Somehow

crazy. I know.

Um, but so after your year-long stent as a missionary, you end up back in College Station, correct?

And you start working at the university then.

Yeah. So, I basically got my old job back from when I was a student, but I got put on full-time.

Nice. Yes, I worked in admissions, then I worked for the marketing department, but like I said, I always wanted to get to athletics because I was very much in the social media branding like logo space. And I knew as as many guidelines as I could create about the Texas&M logo at the university level, if athletics didn't follow it, nothing mattered because 90% of the brand impressions&m gets

is going to be from athletics.

Yeah. So, I always wanted to go there. That was my dream job. And so, pandemic happens uh 2020. I start Flags for Good in June

of 2020.

Mhm.

Yeah. So, it was a response to the Black Lives Matter movement. It was also a response to my TED talk coming out.

Yeah.

So, I did a TED talk in 2019. Sorry, TED X. But then,

Ah, yes.

Well, well, TED wanted it. Okay. Okay. So, TED couldn't do a conference in 2020 and so what they did

and wait for anyone that doesn't know, can you give the difference between TED X and TED?

And and how did you end up at a spot where you were getting the opportunity to have a TED X?

Well, okay. So, TEDex is a locally organized TED talk. So, they we had one at Texas&M. That's how I got to do that one. Um, so I did that in 2019 and then in 2020 they were like, "Hey, can we take your talk and put it on TED.com?" So, I don't think they had a conference that year. And I was like, "Sure." And with that, there was a whole another round of like vetting and I don't know. So, as part of that, they said, "Do you have a call to action link to send people to once they watch your talk?" And I was like, "No." Like, I I had to go rewatch my TEDex talk to figure out like what the hell is what am I trying to say here? And the the whole thing was let's use the power that flags for good that flags have for good, right? because flags can unite people and they can also very much divide people. So, let's use the power of flags for good. And I was like, well, shoot,

how do I do that? And then the Black Lives Matter movement was kicking off

and I was sitting there as somebody who flew a flag at their house. I was like, I want a Black Lives Matter flag to show my neighbors that they're, you know, safe in this neighborhood, but I couldn't find one from a company that also didn't sell like a Confederate flag or something like that, right? So, I was like, why isn't there a flag company that cares about what they sell, that only sells things they believe in? Because it just flags are such a passionate purchase. So, you want to know when you buy it from a company, like they actually care about what they're selling you.

It's interesting that flags are a passionate purchase for the consumer, but a commodity creation for the seller. Exactly. You know, like Yeah. It's like, oh, the same pick whatever logo. You could put your face on a flag. Saturdays are for the boys. you can put an American flag. You can put anything on a flag and they're like, "Yeah, we'll print it, ship it, and move on to the next one."

Yeah.

Wow.

So there I just I felt like there was a disconnect and maybe it's just me being a millennial and wanting that knowing that I I'm buying from a brand that cares about something.

Yeah. Like what were the Again, I would probably just go uh if I'm just like a general consumer, you go on Amazon and you just look and you don't even know who the seller or the manufacturer of a flag is,

right? Yeah. So it was it was either faceless or it was like the existing companies were very antiquated and still the industry is very old. Yeah.

Like go to their webs go to the other flag websites they were built in the '90s you know. Yeah.

So I don't know it was one of those the my passion met the moment and I had the time because of the pandemic and so I I thought it was going to be a twoe project. I'd make some Black Lives Matter flags. I would donate money to the BLM movement and that was going to be my twoe pandemic project. That's that's how Flags for Good started.

At the same time, I got my dream job.

So, I got to be they made my title because they did a whole reorg and whatever. So, I was the assistant athletic director to of branding digital and social media for Texas&M athletics. That was my dream. I had finally made it. And at the same time, Flags for Good was sort of like, you know, taking off.

Like when you say taking off, this is the twoe potential project. What do you mean by taking off?

Like, okay, so after the two weeks, you know, obviously the pandemic dragged on longer than two weeks. So, I was selling flags and then I was like, well, you know, the election's coming up,

like how many flags give us like a skies and

I when I first started flags for good, I had six designs. I bought 100 flags of each and they were in my spare bedroom and in little piles.

Nice.

And I was, you know, fulfilling out of my bedroom because I had a background in branding and graphic design. I think a lot of people looked at the website and the branding of the packaging and was just like, "This is a legit company." Which played to my favor because I was literally in my bedroom, you know, whatever. So,

and were you getting notice from your time on the TED the TED X talk? Well, I think people were just googling for Black Lives Matter flags. That's that's what it was.

Um, you know, there was a demand for it. And I think a lot of times with social issues, normal flag companies wait because it's like, well, we don't want to invest a lot of inventory in this, you know, fad that's going to, you know, we'll be sitting on it. So, I didn't have that problem. I just was, you know, I I had my little piles of flags and I was shipping them around the country.

Yeah. I mean, 600 flags, let's say they were, you know, 30 bucks or what? Like, that's not that's not nothing, you know, and you were able to donate some money and make a true impact. Like, that's cool.

Yeah. And so, but then I was like, well, how do I keep this going cuz this is fun. And so, the election was coming up later that year in November. So, I was like, "Oh, well, I can make vote flags, you know, like get people to vote." And then after that, I was like, "Well, I mean, what's more evergreen?" like pride flags kind of, you know, have a but they that comes every year and it's not waiting every four years for an election or whatever. So over time it it kept with the whole like things we believe in and flags for causes that need representation and money to be donated to those things. Um, but it just kind of grew from activism to sort of more evergreen things like LGBT pride and now we do cities and states and stuff like that.

Yeah. And somewhere during this journey, your side hustle becomes more important than your dream job.

Yep.

Like how long did you end up working at for Texas&M athletics?

Nine months. Only lasted nine months

than your dream job.

I know. And it was hard because well a few things happened. One, I realized my dream job was not my dream job.

I I I really

did not enjoy working there.

Don't meet your heroes, kids.

Exactly. Exactly.

Um, so many things were happening in the athletic space. Like my first week on the job, I we had to cancel a football game because of CO 19. Like&M's never canceled a football game.

Yeah.

So, communicating that out was nuts.

Yeah. And everyone's probably like like you put that out on the social account. Everyone's like, "I hate you. You're the worst."

Oh, yeah. And then you have people who don't believe COVID 19's a thing and it's I mean it was nuts. And then NIL was starting.

Oh yeah. So that was a whole like everyone was scrambling trying to figure out like what do we do? And so they're promising these, you know, recruits, oh we'll help you build your social media, we'll build you a brand, blah blah blah. And I'm sitting here going, we can't manage the 19 sports we have. like how are we gonna how are we going to build little Johnny his own YouTube profile.

Exactly. So I think everybody was sort of scrambling at the time and then so honestly I think there was part of me that was looking for an exit and I kind of set the goal. I said once flags for good could help pay the salary I was making at&m I'm I'm out. I'm going to I'm going to do this thing. So that was it and it lasted nine months. It never looked back.

Wow.

Yeah. It was great. the when you turned in your resignation and you left what was which could have been your dream job like not in the co like if it was you get to post like the next big recruit coming on campus you're posting about touchdown like it could be a lot of fun like you're in a that was a tough time everyone had told me athletics is miserable

oh

and I didn't take their warnings I knew those people even they were just like I you know, I don't have a schedule. I'm there whenever there's something going on, you know, like they don't have a life. And when I got there, I realized that, yeah, it can it's very uh shiny on the outside, but most people who work in athletic departments are very overworked. They're very burnt out.

Well, the thing is there's a a long line of kids that just like you were that are like

banging down the we'll do it for a quarter of the pay. You know, they're like, oh yeah, working athletics, sling tickets, whatever it might be. like cuz you're working in sports and then you realize like whether you're selling tickets to a football game or you're selling life insurance plans like you're it's still work, you know, it just happens to be that the product is at, you know,

8:00 p.m. at night when you're like trying to get Instagram stories for a volleyball game.

Yeah, exactly.

Like someone's got to be there.

Oh, yeah. So, I mean it it was I guess I I'm glad I did it. I don't regret doing it

cuz I feel like I would always have asked like what if what if I did that? So you within nine months get flags for good to a place where you can start paying yourself a salary.

Uh nine months I mean starting at athletics. Yeah. So it's pro flags for good is probably almost a year old at that point.

Okay. So even with even within a first year to get something to a point where

you know you can make a decent amount of money even like enough to live even like a modest life you know

like that's pretty good momentum. Was that largely on people searching flags for a social cause? Yeah. Like SEO or is it social? Like what was the how are you building the brand?

The early success I think had to do with um knowing how to work the internet. A lot of like I said a lot of flag brands are old so they didn't know how to alt tag their images. So when someone searched for bisexual flag, my images come up on Google images first because I added alt text or I titled the the file correctly. And so my experience in the web world or just, you know, doing things on the computer, I think helped flags for good become the first flag brand that was doing things differently. And then of course my social media thing. So I was making Tik Toks like this.

And so the the Tik Tok that really sent us to the moon was December 26, the day after Christmas of 2020. And so I hadn't quit my job yet. And this Tik Tok was very much during the era where Tik Tok was just like it was a lot more fun back then. It wasn't so much ads and whatever. And so it was just me packing an order and I was just showing people like here's my spare bedroom and here's an order for this flag and here's how we're, you know, who we're donating to, blah blah blah. That thing got over almost two million views.

I two million. Yeah, two million views. And yeah, never looked back since.

I mean, yeah, I'm like looking on your your TikTok and it's like, yeah, you've got like a 1.9 million, a 2.6 million, a 1.3, a 1.1, like so many video or videos that are over a 100,000. Like, holy sm which is crazy. I think a lot of people think, okay, one you're like one video took us to the moon,

but also like how many videos did you have to post to get to the one?

Like a lot of people think, oh, you just get you just get lucky. Like one of your videos blew up and you got lucky, but it's like you got to give yourself the opportunity to get lucky.

Exactly. And so, but I think the success of that video was so much about the algorithm and so little about cuz I think people say we're still in social media. We're not. We're out of social media. We're in algorithmic media now. The algorithm shows you what you want to see. You know, it's not about who you follow anymore. So, like all those million people, they didn't know who I was. They weren't following Flags for Good. The algorithm just showed them the video randomly on their for you page. And so,

dude, it ticks me off like people that want to see your content and like you can't like you have to get your notifications or whatever set up or else they don't see your stuff.

And now it's, you know, content creators like you are like, "Hey, like and subscribe and click the notification." You're begging people to do the things to get your stuff

and you got to say it like 12 times to get like one person.

Yeah. So, go ahead and like and subscribe.

Yeah. Like, subscribe. Like, make sure you leave a a review. Reviews really help from for Spotify and Apple Podcast. Like, help us with distribution there. So, here's your quick reminder. Leave a fivestar review if you think that we're doing five star work.

There you go.

All right. So, you're building a flag company, but you're also building a media side. Like, you're putting a lot of content out. Like because this is the piece that I find interesting. The internet wants to watch like the the weirdest things. Like they want to watch someone pack flags. Like I there's a guy on Friday morning. He's a trash man. He goes live on TikTok and I like sometimes tune in for like two or three minutes and I'm like

he's cuz he has like like suction cup to the back of the trash truck and it's him like he'll like pop off, grab a little trash can, throw it in the back like he's slinging bags and and I'm like this guy's a vibe. He's like whistling while he works.

Yeah. And I feel like that was another piece of like they people want to know they're buying from humans.

Yeah.

And that and I think you know my biggest competitor is Amazon, right? And Amazon you can just replace that word with apathy where you just I just want it. I don't care where it comes from. I don't care whatever. I just want it fast.

Yeah.

Do you guys sell on Amazon?

No.

No.

No. We tried it for a little bit just to be there and give people the option but again and we just

I feel like the brand doesn't really matter. uh like your store, your seller, the Amazon seller doesn't really matter and like your whole position is on brand,

right? And so it was sort of we wanted to position ourselves in a space of like we are the alternative to Amazon. You're going to pay a little more, but you're going to donate to the cause that you're actually buying a flag for. So you're already going to feel better about your flag. you're gonna support real human beings who you can like look at their face and you know I mean we ship pretty fast like maybe not as fast as Amazon but you know

well and the thing that I I think really sets you apart is during this journey like you became obsessed with flags

I mean I was obsessed with flags beforehand but I'd never gotten into the the business you know the manufacturing side the business side like

yeah vexalology ology is the like the study of flags and Okay. So, so yeah, I guess I didn't like I say I've only known you for a few years now, but like you are just as obsessed with flags as I am with all things the state of Indiana.

Like there are a few people like Samson, you know Sam, he is obsessed with Indiana history and like he and I can go back and forth on that. like you and flags and like your again this is with the utmost respect cuz I say it about myself like my amount of useless knowledge about the state of Indiana is like off the charts. Your amount of useless knowledge about flags is off the charts. It's incredible.

And we've just figured out ways to like make it our brand, our business.

It's your identity, right?

Instead of just being the weird flag guy.

Yeah. But it's like the cool flag guy, you know? But but like if you have watched any of Michael's content, you're going to know that you're going to learn a little bit about the story of the flag, the flag designer, what this means. Like, uh, do you follow Charlie Puth?

Mhm. his breakdowns of music remind me a lot of your breakdowns of flags where it's like you start to learn the science maybe not SC but like what the the feelings that an artist and a designer is trying to put into this piece of art.

Totally. Yeah. And not to correct you but I think this is an important distinction.

Oh,

flags fall under design and not art. And I'm so passionate about this so I'm glad you brought it up.

Yes, correct me. So art is subjective, right? We you and I could look at the same piece of art and I could be like that's the greatest thing I've ever seen. You could be like I hate that thing and I you know

Yeah.

And that's fine. We are both correct. There is no right answer.

Yeah.

Design I believe is objective. There is a right and a wrong. There's a pass fail component to design.

Yeah.

So for instance, when you're looking at a sign or you're looking at a door, the famous example is a door. If you need to put push or pull on the door, that's a bad design. Like you people should know what to do without you labeling what to do.

Yeah. Like if you have if you see like the ones where you push it like you have a little like handle and it like is curved in to make it feel like oh I know that I'm supposed to do here.

Yes. Exactly.

Wow.

So with flags they are designed so they have a job to do and the job is to identify something at a distance. Right. Right? So they started with ships. If you're on the high seas and you see another ship, you need to identify yourself and they need to identify themselves. So that way you know, are they friend or are they foe? Are they going to shoot you or you know what I mean?

So like at a distance, maybe there's wind, maybe there's not. Like flags have a job to do and if they can't do that, then they fail.

What was the first flag?

Uh hard to say. Um we know that the Chinese had a flag like they used flag like things way back when.

Yeah. Um, we call those vexaloids. So, if they're not specific flags, they're vexaloids.

Um, the word vexalology comes from the Roman vexalum, which is it doesn't fly like a flag you're thinking of. It hangs vertically from a pole. So, they'd walk around with

like a banner, like if you're doing Game of Thrones, like, yo, yeah, you're calling your banners.

Yeah. So, and again, they did the job of like, this is my unit, you know, if you are friendly to us, don't shoot us. Like, you know, they they're very important. And in battle back, you know, for the longest time, the flag bearer of your unit was one of the most important people because it made you not get friendly fire. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Like I think people like sometimes look at it and that you revolutionary war times you see someone car like, "Oh gosh, who's this the poor sap that has to carry the banner?" But like knowing who's who and what units what and who's on your side and not now the drummers on the other hand like I'm not sure I'm not sure if that part was all that necessary little flute player coming along but like

uh okay that makes sense. So yeah, so flags even to this day they have a job. And so uh we'll use Indiana for example. There are probably 25 I think states where their flag is a blue piece of fabric with a thing in the middle, usually a circular thing. So if you cannot look at a flag and go, "Oh, that's North Dakota or that's Vermont." Then that that flag is not doing its job. Right. Yeah. So about half the flags we have in the US are great state flags. The other half are basically. And so from a design perspective, that's another thing about Flags for Good is we only sell flags that we believe are good designs.

So we don't sell

a lot of state flags. And one of the first things I did beyond the activism side of Flags for Good was start redesigning state flags that I didn't like.

Dude, that's kind of sick. Uh, like have you seen like the the designers that are like redoing the like the Colts for instance? Like like oh this is how if I was the Colts designer this is how I would make their alternate alternative logos like or alternative uniforms like that. That's kind of cool. Wait, so what was the first one you redesigned?

Um I think Louisiana um cuz a lot of my family's from there. So that was an easy one. And

like So do so I guess put put it plainly do you like the state of Indiana? Like is that a good design?

You can be honest. I think it is a solid B+. And here's why. And it's not nothing. Well, there's a few things wrong with it, but the fact that it's on a blue banner, that's already a mark against it. Not because blue is bad, but because there's so many other ones that are blue.

Um, but the other thing is I hate about the Indiana flag is that it says the word Indiana real small right in there.

So, that was not in the original design. Paul Hadley when he submitted his original design,

shout out Morrisville.

Yep. And there's a there's a whole story about this whether Paul Hadley actually designed it. It's a whole thing. But did not have the word Indiana in the flag. The Senate, as politicians do, made it worse. They um said, "Oh, well, how's anybody going to know it's Indiana if it doesn't say Indiana?" Which is like the the opposite of what flag design is supposed to be. So they made them add the word Indiana in there real tiny before they passed it. So at Flags for Good, we sell the flag without the word Indiana.

Oh,

because it's it's a great design if you don't have that word

because you're saying that it it shouldn't have to say what it is. You should know what it is. Like I mean Texas, like the flag of Texas. So it's a freaking a like Colorado, same thing. Just the sea. Yep.

New Mexico.

So what would you say like your top five state flags are? Like what ones do you love? Uh, New Mexico's number one.

Oh, is that like this the

It's yellow with the Zia in the middle of it.

That's called a Zia.

Yep. The Zia symbol. It's a sun. It's a

I got you.

So, so I'm also a member of the North American Vexalological Association. And we're we're hosting

Of course you are.

We're hosting Nava 60 here in India.

And of And of course we are. Like of course we host.

Of course we are. So um anyway, they have ranked all these state flags. So So

wait, who who ranks them?

NAVA. Type in NAVA.

NAVA.

Yep. So, so New Mexico, they ranks number one as well. I think it's the best. Texas, Arizona, Colorado. Um, California is weird because California breaks the rules. It says California Republic on the bottom of it.

And usually the rule is do not put words on flags, right? But for some reason, California's flag goes so hard and people love it. And so when I and my my wife kind of like gets mad at me sometimes because I say these things very objectively and she's like, "Well, that's your opinion." And I was like, "Well, there's a way to measure the success of a flag and it's if people fly it, right?" So this was the beginning of my second TED talk was I was said when I was a kid, we would drive from Texas to Louisiana, right, all the time to go see my family. And when I'm little and I'm looking out the window as my parents are driving, I'm seeing Texas flag, Texas flag, Texas flag.

And then as soon as you cross the border, guess what? You stop seeing flags altogether.

Yeah.

Because Louisiana's flag sucks. And so no one flies it, you know? And so like if if your flag is not a good design, there are so many signs of that.

You know, a good flag design that a ton of people fly

the city of Indianapolis.

Absolutely.

And I would say like I think a decent chunk of people fly the Indiana flag.

Yeah. Yeah. I say it's a B tier.

Yeah. But like

Texas, it's just different. They fly Texas flags more than American flags.

Wait, I'm trying to find the uh the state flag rankings. I found the city flag rankings, dude.

One. Okay, so they do city ones. Top 25 one. Tulsa, Oklahoma. That's a good

Oh, okay. So, these newest ones these are new.

Yeah. Yeah. So, they did a they did a they did it. I don't know. They I don't like how way they did it because these are the ones past 20 or 2008. So, they had done a city flag survey before then. Yeah.

And then these all came after 2008. Like these are rebrands cuz these all look like

Yeah. But Tulsa, Oklahoma's flag is Oh,

that's pretty hard. But like India has had the a flag like this for a long time.

Yeah. So in the first survey, Indianapolis was the eighth best city flag in the country.

I could see that. Now when we go into the lowest rated city flags,

they're amazing.

Oh my go Oh my goodness.

It's a parabola because sometimes it's so good that it's bad. Like so bad that it's good. Again, I think people don't realize is that a flag is a very different thing than just like putting your words or, you know, your thing on a flag,

which I don't think that people would think about that.

Yeah.

That it's like being able to cuz you have to see this thing

from a distance

and it should immediately evoke your an emotion. Like you see the Jolly Roger flying out at sea and you're like,

"Oh shoot, we're screwed." Like the perfect example is Chicago and New York. Okay? So New York City, everyone is proud to be from New York, right? But they don't have a good city flag and they don't have a good state flag. And so if anybody wants to give themselves the identity of being a New Yorker and they want to get a tattoo, what are they gonna get? They'll get a

Lady Liberty.

Sure. Big Apple, Yankees logo. They have a fractured brand identity for New York because it they don't have a a unifying symbol. Now, Chicago has the best city flag possibly in the whole world. And every person from Chicago, if they want a tattoo, they get the Chicago flag tattoo.

Yeah. The four stars, the like baby blue. It's a It's a good one.

Yeah. So, like there is benefits to having a unifying symbol because people

people want to belong

and they want to display symbols of belonging. That's a quote from Wally Ollins who is a iconic brand designer and all of the public speaking I do I always start with that quote because I think that gets to the core of not just flags but so many things is that everybody wants to belong to something and they want to display symbols of that belonging.

And so flags are the tangible symbols of these intangible ideas we have of state, city, nation. You know these are all just abstract ideas. Like think about that extrapolated a little bit like your favorite team, you know, like it's logos or a little mini helmet or like whatever. Like you feel so strongly about something that a logo or a flag or a pennant or whatever it might be, it's like you feel an immense sense of pride. It doesn't just like signify that you know that they are the Texas Rangers or whatever.

That's really interesting. And you know, a lot of people don't identify that until they want to change the logo. So, I can't I don't know of any recent Indiana examples of this, but like I guess I heard about the IMS whenever they changed the logo and the wheel started facing another way. You know what I'm talking about?

No, I didn't. Okay. So, they they flip they just change

they flipped the wheel. If you look at the old IMS logos, most of the wheels face one way. The wing and wheel, you know, it's like one way and then the current one it it points the other way. Um, but like you know any sports team, college logo, whatever, when they want to change their brand or god forbid, if a state wants to change their flag, and we can talk about this, people go ballistic. And it's like, y'all, it's not that deep. Like, nothing's changing about the state of Utah when you change their flag. But for some reason, people think you are trampling on their heritage or something, you know?

Oh, yeah. the old wing and wheel pointed left and the new wing and wheel points right

which like

I don't really know like I wonder what the like I wonder about being in the boardroom there like who's thought like yeah this is what we need

we need Doug BS back

yeah like I mean I don't know what like I wonder what the thought process was

I heard there was good design reasons um I don't know them so I don't want to like lie and say something false but yeah also just bringing Bring it back to flags. The order of the flags on the logo changed as well.

Oh,

this is the my favorite vintage logo and it has like these flags like this. This is not the order of the flags on the current IMS logo.

On the current one, it's green, white, blue, checkered, red, black, yellow.

Yeah, this one's different.

Wow.

Yeah, you can see both of them next to each other. So, yeah.

Why did you get so into flags?

When I was a kid, I think I we traveled a lot when I was a kid. Um, and so I had all these memories of these places and I was like looking for some way to like maybe create sense of place. And like most kids, I had a map on my wall in my room and it had all the little flags at the bottom. And so it was easy for me to be like, "Oh yeah, you know, we took a cruise and went to Antigga and there's the flag of that." You know, so they're simple shapes. They're very easy to like memorize and whatever.

So I feel like that's how it started. And then as I got into graphic design in college, I was fascinated by like when you're creating logos. I mean, the Colts is a good example. It's very simple, two colors, incredibly easy to draw. But like flags are the simplest form of design. You know, like the Ukrainian flag, it's literally two colors.

But for some reason, the Ukrainian flag or, you know, most flags can make people like cry and kill each other. You know what I mean? like these very simple designs can do so much powerful stuff. It's like you know I'm sitting here designing logos for X Y and Z and I'm like seems like the simpler the better. And so I was just fascinated by flags because of the juxosition of like how simple they were and how much

Yeah.

how many things they could say you know like picture is a thousand words. Well flags are like a million you know.

Yeah. So

that is super interesting about how you know like whether it be like you know the flag of you know Mexico or France you know it's like three colors

and they they mean a lot right I mean you obviously if you've never seen the French French flag before and you see it for the first time you're not going to be like oh well that means that no but you will remember it and then once you learn about the meanings of the colors then

yeah and like learning the symbolism like you know 13 stripes for the original 13 colonies and 50 stars for the 50 states. And

uh and I think there's a whole is there a thing about why it goes red, white, red, white? I don't know. Like I think I mean

Old Glory has like their own the its own secrets behind the flag. Like I think a lot of flags are that way.

Oh, totally. The good ones.

When you think about the worst state flags?

Yeah.

Who has the worst state flags?

I mean, most of them that have just the seal, they call them seals on bed sheets or Saabs.

Um

so,

they are just Yeah. Your state seal on a blue sheet. Illinois or I think Illinois is a

Illinois is pretty bad.

Yeah.

They're looking to redesign though.

Really?

Mhm. Illinois. So, recently we've had uh recently I mean in the last 10 years. Um Mississippi changed their flag which is good because it had

probably Probably a good thing. What's the new Mississippi flag?

It's got a um Chameleia flower in the middle of it. I think my SS is SSI PP. Yeah, there you go.

Got dude. Yeah, that's for anyone. They had like the old school like Confederate flag.

Yeah, they had the flag. Yeah. So

So they changed theirs. Yeah.

What was the What's Utah's flag?

This was one of those ones that I redesigned just for fun cuz I could. I created this new Utah flag. Then Utah State University invited me out to do a TEDex talk there and I was like oh well I just did this fun thing like you know can I show the new flag? And then they were like sure whatever. So literally the day of my TEDex talk and I'm in Utah they announce that they're going to officially redesign the Utah flag. And so I'm like oh cool.

I'll just submit my design whatever. So I go and do that whenever the submission's open. And then one thing you need to know about me is uh I love marketing. So, I found that digital billboards were like criminally cheap, like0 cents or whatever. So, I go buy billboards all around Salt Lake City with my design on it, and I just say, "New Utah flag, question mark." And funny enough, it worked because the senator who was in charge of the flag redesign committee tweeted at flags for good cuz I had my I had that on there, too.

He was like, "Did I just see a billboard or whatever?" So, it worked. Uh, I hit the one person I was trying to get.

Yeah. But anyway, my Utah flag design was one of the 70 designs that ended up influencing the new Utah flag. So, um

it kind of looks like a

is that like a honeycomb? Like what is what is in the center of that?

So, so it's a beehive. Um they are the beehive state. It's a symbol um goes all the way back to Freemasonry, but the the Joseph Smith kind of took it and made it a Mormon symbol. Yeah.

So, my design didn't have a beehive, but I did use that hexagon to kind of nod to the bee theme.

So, it ended up having a hexagon in the middle. It's got the mountains like I had on my design.

That's pretty cool.

They changed the colors up and stuff, but yeah. So, I was one of 70 designs that influenced the flag, which was Yeah. Pretty cool.

That is super cool. Yeah. Their old one kind of looks like the presidential seal.

Yeah, it was bad. The old flag of Utah has I think three dates on it or at least two.

Oh, yeah. Wait, what?

It's incredibly busy. The They could never get it right. There was like 10 different versions of it.

1847 and 1896.

Yeah, explain that.

Like maybe it's like the Utah ter if I had to guess like Utah territory in Utah the day it become. Yes, you're right. And then there's flags on the flag which is just I think that's hilarious when you put flags on a flag.

That's pretty meta. Yeah, it's like American flags on the flag.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's something.

Hey, funny interesting Indiana story bringing it back home.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you know Indiana did not have a state flag for I think the first hundred years of statehood and we used the American flag as the state flag for the first hundred years.

Why do you why was that? Just because no one designed one.

Yeah, I think so.

Wait, we didn't even talk about this part of the journey. Why did you come to Indiana?

It was not my choice. It was I like to say a series of unfortunate events.

Oh,

yeah. I mean, I was I was married. Um, and you know, once I had started Flags for Good and I could I could work out of my house, whatever. Um, she got a job up here. She was also from here. So, we moved up here. Um, yeah. And then as soon as we got here, basically, we split up. And so, I I was sort of dropped off in Indiana. And I didn't, you know, know anybody and I didn't really like Indiana. I Well, I didn't really know anything about Indiana. So I think because of my situation I had

like you could just duck tail and go home though.

True. Yeah. Exactly. And um Yeah. And I wanted to hate it.

I did. I was I was bitter. And so but by that point I had hired my first employees and we had a little month-to-month space at 16 Tech where I met you.

And I was like, well, if I if I go back to Texas, I have to let down these people that I just hired. Or better yet, I was like, I could just move to bluer pastures and flags for good. A lot of people think like, why are you in Indiana, right? Like, you seem like a like a Colorado type business, you know what I mean? And um yeah, I could have, but Indiana has a way of uh of getting its hook in you. And the people here are incredible. And the weather I also love. Like in Texas, I hated it was just so hot all the time. And here I'm like the the fall in Indiana is incredible.

Yeah.

And um I don't know. I begrudgingly fell in love with Indianapolis.

Like in every step of the way you're probably like no I want to leave. Like no.

Oh ask my employees. They are they I mean I was

Where where was the moment where you flipped and you liked it?

I have a very specific day.

Yeah.

So I was part of a soccer team that was community- based. the league doesn't exist anymore, but I was on the Fountain Square FC soccer team and it was just people local to Fountain Square playing. We'd play against Fletcher Place, we'd play against Bates Hendricks, like it was great.

That's sick.

Oh. Oh, so much fun. And everybody agrees it was the best thing. And I was in Fountain Square was looking to just, you know, go out, you know, the rooftop had just opened that day and I was kind of buming cuz I was like, man, I don't know anybody. Like, this sucks. And I was walking past Kkuma's corner and some guys from my soccer team were like, "Hey, Michael. Hey, come sit with us, whatever." And I ended up, you know, just like hanging out with them. And like the feeling of being known and people being like, "Hey, what's up?" Like that moment was just like, "Okay, I can stay." Also, that happens to be the first night that me and my wife met each other or saw each other. We didn't say hi, but we saw each other that night.

So, that night was very, very important. But that was the first moment where I was like, "Okay, I'm not new here. People know me."

Yeah.

And they, you know, getting seen on the street uh in my neighborhood made me feel at home.

I do think that is like a serendipitous like amazing part of Indiana.

Yeah.

Is that like you know, you walk through Broadripple, you walk through Fountain Square, you walk even downtown, like you're probably pretty likely to like bump into someone. Oh my, I haven't seen you since last month. Like what's going on? what's and like for some people they don't like some people don't enjoy seeing people that they know like they kind of want to like stay hidden

and like to be fair like Indiana is not for everyone like you know as much as I want it to be as much as I'm like oh my gosh this is the best place ever like

if you like being known and you like that bigger city with the hometown feel I know that's pretty cliche but like I love walking down the street and even before I started putting out content I'd see someone getting drinks or grabbing sushi or whatever it is. And it's like I might stop and chitchat for 7 to 10 minutes, you know, like and it's not like a weird thing like sometimes I feel like uh you know, oh people like you have places to be you're always like head down, keep moving AirPods in and it's like oh no, I'll just like chitchat with someone and go out there getting dinner and on my way to get dinner and then you'll see the local, you know, bartender that you know that you're also going to see at the soccer game that you're also going to see down at the Colts game. And I love it. I think it's awesome. It's like and and I say this as an outsider, right? I've lived here five, six years now.

Uh there's Midwest Nice and there's also who's your hospitality. I think when you mix like this is the borderline where those two mix the ven diagram is basically Indianapolis.

Yeah.

And that I think is a beautiful

Yeah.

mix of people.

What advice would you give to other people that are new to the city of Indianapolis on how to build relationships?

First of all, stick it out. And also like let's be fair, you're going through like a pretty

Yeah.

emotional, you know, like tough time.

Yeah.

How long was like that journey before you got to I feel like I belong?

I mean, it's probably a year or two.

Yeah.

So many things had changed in my life at that point. So, not to say that it's going to take a year for everybody, but you know, I had to choose to join that league and then I had to choose to get up and go every Wednesday when we played. So, it takes putting yourself out there and this just goes in for life, too. Like you, like you said, you have to give yourself the opportunity to get lucky, right? So, you're not going to get lucky unless you're putting out pieces of content or whatever. So, um you know, I put myself out there and

met people through that soccer league, which like I said, doesn't exist anymore, but there's so many cool things. I joined the Indie Chamber.

Yeah.

Gosh. I mean, at first my dad was like, "You should join the Chamber of Commerce. You own a business." And I was like, I don't know what chamber of commercees do. I was like, do they, you know, I've seen ribbon cutings. That's all I knew. And so I joined just to, you know, make my dad happy.

And

funny the things you do to make your parents happy.

But then I've just met so many cool people,

so many other business owners that have helped me through stuff and whatever.

This is a this is a product of the chamber, the speed city water.

Come on. That actually reminds me I probably need to join the chamber. I think it's probably about time. I think when your business starts to mature, you should probably join the chamber of commerce. like there's so many benefits from it that I did not expect that as a business owner you might need sometimes, you know.

Um so the chamber is a great way I've met people. Um you there's that's what's cool about Indiana

and I was asking my employees about this before I came on this podcast. I was like what should I say cuz they've been here longer than I have and they were like well you know obviously Indiana's flat and there's so you're not going out skiing you know because

you have never been to Perfect North. I I have been to Perfect North and I'll tell you that ain't skiing. So the but because Indiana is where it is and because we're surrounded by a lot of nothing, let's just say it, porn. That is a pressure cooker for figuring out how to be creative, how to invest in your own hobbies, how to do the things that make you happy. And I feel like that's why Indianapolis and the surrounding region, you know, not just the city,

have so many cool things is because we have to.

Dude, I grew up in a town of 1500 people and, you know, my high school had 70 kids, a graduating class.

Like, you talk about having to figure out how to keep yourself entertained on the weekends. I think yeah, sometimes it was like building dirt bike ramps and like doing whatever and like getting into trouble like you know with what we were doing to stay entertained,

but it just breeds creativity. Like if if we had like an arcade and like everything was just mapped out where it's like go do this, then do this, then get dinner here. It's like yeah, you don't have to think. You don't have to be creative. But getting these kind of constraints at times makes you figure it out and think a little more outside the box.

You want to see this segue? Watch this.

That's why I think flags are so interesting.

Oh,

because you're absolutely right. You need design constraints.

When you have to make a thing simple and and rectangular and it has to be very simple so you can see it so far away, you get good design. And so when you have constraints, that forces creativity.

Yeah.

And so yeah, that I think you you nailed it,

dude. And I think that some people are, oh yeah, like

you know, you want to live in a place that has every and it's like, well, I don't know, look at,

you know, Hawaii or wherever, you know, look at if you had great weather every day, you'd start to take those good days for granted. And anyone who says, "No, I wouldn't." Like, yes, you would. You would take like if you lived near the beach, eventually you'd stop going to the beach.

Yeah.

You know, like

Yeah. Whatever it is, it's like having the constraints that make you one appreciate the first snow as much as you appreciate a good breeze in the fall as much as you appreciate the spring.

It's like, yeah, do you like the 30th snow? Like, no. No one likes the 30th snow. It's it's annoying and we're ready for summer to be here, but you're like have something to constantly look forward to one, but the constraints again, it all comes down to like

it's like do you really want to be free or do you want like the discipline that creates freedom? And like a lot of people are like, you know, I just want to like I want to wake up every day, not have to work, and just figure it out. And it's like that doesn't sound that fun. Like if you if you weren't like creating something to put out into the world, like if you weren't you didn't have like a purpose

and it was just like wake up and live every day.

Yeah.

Like I don't know. That doesn't seem that exciting.

Yeah. I didn't expect this to be like a a

Oh, dude. We can go

a self-help podcast.

We can go anywhere. I mean

Yeah. This is great. Yeah. No, I I totally agree with you. Like I've heard just like I was saying uh you said don't meet your heroes. I've heard

don't live where you vacation

because same Hawaii if you move there. Guess what? Now it's not your vacation.

No.

Now it's you know you're stuck in traffic.

Yeah. You're in traffic there and you're like I just want to get home and like sit on the couch, watch a basketball game and eat some dinner.

And it's not like like when you're on vacation and you're stuck in traffic. You're just like looking around thinking, "Wow."

Yeah.

This is the island. Aloha, boys. Let's go. Uh, I do want to say you you brought some a fun gift.

I did bring you a gift.

I think it might be time to maybe unbox a gift.

Okay. So, this is part of our official partnership with the IMS. So, oh,

this year we became the official flags of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the Indy500, which means we have decked out the entire facility with our flags, um, which are sustainable, and we can go into that if you want, but if you're in the indie area and looking to explore a little, I've got your next stop. Kirkland, Indiana, just 12 miles north of Zensville, straight up US421. Kirkland is one of those small towns that just has it. Antique shops full of character. Fresh baked goods at Baked a Cookie Company. Great food at Bookers.

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Check them out and make Greeks part of your next pizza night. Now, let's get back into the episode.

This is kind of uh my creative way of celebrating this collection. So, the bag is part of it. Okay, you get the bag. Um, and then let's see what we got in here. Few shirts.

Oh, yeah.

This one is my favorite. It's a pocket tea, but it's got the little flags coming out of the pocket.

Oh, yes, sir. We've got a a navy blue pocket tea. Oh, that logo is sick.

Thanks. This is the flag I mean the shirt I'm wearing. So, it's just your racing colors.

Fire. Oh, I I see. Simple. I like simple.

Yeah. Comfort colors as well are great shirts. So, you can buy these online.

Um, talk to me about being the official flag of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and you know what that means for you? I mean, not not coming from Indiana.

Mhm.

Not being from Indiana, like what was your perception of the Speedway before you got here?

I didn't care. I I mean, I had heard of it. Um, I just I I remember the first few years I lived here, I was like, "Oh, the 500, the traffic's going to be so bad. Like I don't care about this though. I was an F1 fan.

Oh yes.

Okay, we can talk about that. But uh I just really didn't care about Indie Car.

Yeah.

But you know what I do care about is EDM music. And when I heard that the snake pit existed and there was a big EDM concert in the middle of the racetrack, I was like, "Well, I'll go to that."

Yeah.

So I some friends from that soccer league. We all walked over together. Had the time of my life.

Yeah.

And here's how I did it. I brought a bunch of little checkered flags, littleer than this one. Okay. And I just had a backpack of those. That's all I brought. And I had a sign that said, "I will trade flags for drinks." And I didn't pay for a drink the whole day.

Hey, that's a pretty And those are probably like a nickel. Like, you know, each of those little checkered flags is a I mean, that's a

And I had the time of my life.

Yeah. I mean, that's a good And okay, did you walk away? Obviously, you like EDM music. Obviously, the snake pit is fun, but did you get a little bit of an appreciation for cars?

100%. And so then I, you know, because I joined the chamber, I got invited to a day at the track practice day. I was part of Visit Indie. They had a practice day. So then I started getting into the, oh, this is cool. Oh, I get to meet, you know, the drivers and um, we use DHL a little bit. And so DHL had a, you know, invited me out for the GP and I got to meet Alex Po. And like then when you when you're in the garages and you're seeing all the stuff that's going on, you're like, "Wo, this is this is super freaking

similar to like your love of flags and like your like a healthy obsession of flags."

It's like I can just get behind anyone who is obsessed and like just dedicated to their craft.

Yeah.

Like you know, whether you have a driver, an engineer, a you know, the crew chief, whatever it is, like people that just are obsessed with what they're doing. Like I just love hanging out with those kind of people. I know.

And like they have passionate people.

Yeah. Passionate people

that like

show they they show their passion with their time. Like show me the time. Like show me like their late nights, early mornings all the time.

Um

you know, we've had drivers in here talking about putting their car into the wall. And it's like, well, you know, if you put your car into the wall and qualifying, you got a day or two. Probably a day. You got a day. And um

it's not you who's staying up all night working on the thing. It's your team. And I think that's like you talk about obsession like being just like so bought into what you're doing. I don't know. I I love that. So it's interesting to hear. So you came you go to the snake bit then you're hanging out the chamber getting to see all

Yeah. And then now I'm now I'm definitely in to the race a lot more.

Who's your driver?

I don't know if I have I guess Alex Palo. Not because he's like doing great and he won the Indy500 last year, but I actually got to meet him uh through DHL and he was super nice and like that was that was the year whenever like he was winning every race.

Yeah. Same thing this year.

I Yeah. And I I remember people saying like, "Man, you want to hate him, but he's just too nice. You can't hate him."

No.

So, he's great. Um

I guess I'll say Alex Palo, but honestly, that's what's great about racing in general is like you can watch a race and just enjoy the sport. Yeah.

You don't have to have a favorite. And um it's fun when you do, but

I feel like with racing again, we had uh Ed Carpenter on, he talked about how there's uh for the 500 32 losers and one winner.

So like sometimes your favorite guy might get, you know, spun out in the first couple laps and you're like, "Oh shoot." Like now I just like No, you you kind of like start to distill like, "Okay, out of these 12 that have a chance to win, I kind of like these four. And then now out of these six that have a chance to win, I like these two. And then out of these three, it's like when you get to the end, it's like

and we had P on and it's like, you know, are you new gardener P? Are you are you Polo or P? Like, where are you at on that?

Or or you go get your friends and you pull names out of a hat the morning of the race and then that's you're all in for that driver. That's so much fun.

I mean, you got 33 names and you get, you know, one, you can get 33 people each paying 20 bucks. It's great. That's a huge huge P. Or like everyone gets 11 people, you get three drivers each.

Yeah.

So much fun. like tons of fun ways to have fun at the 500. Talk to me about what this partnership means for you for Flags for Good for like just the I won't say the credibility, but just like the next iteration and step forward for Flags for Good.

Yeah. I mean, it's huge. Probably one of the biggest things we've done. They approached us uh and said, "Hey, do you want to be the official Flags?" And we want to figure out whatever that means because I think we're the first to have that title. And so I kind of came to them with here's what I can at least provide you, you know, because obviously if you've been to the track, they fly flags every 10 feet around the 250 mi or 2 and a half mile track. So it's a it's a lot of flags. It's almost a thousand flags that are just on the tops of the grand stands and around the perimeter of the of the track.

Holy smokes.

Yeah. So it's it's quite a bit of flags. And you know, flags are in the logo. So it, you know, it's a huge part of racing and a huge part of the IMS. So I came to them and I said, "Okay, I would love to do the facility flags and I have a cool idea that that I'll talk about how to make them more sustainable." And then, you know, beyond that, um, we were already a lency. So, just expanding sort of what we can make with the IMS logo and all the vintage logos and kind of bring in some of that to the to the public because, you know, another thing that made me fall in love with Indianapolis was the first month of May that I spent here

and seeing how many people put out checkered flags in the month of May.

Yeah. Checkered flags, race fans, welcome. Like, those flags are really cool,

right? And so when I saw how the city turns out, even if you're not like someone who goes to the race, you know, people put out checkered flags, it's a holiday here.

Yeah.

And so I wanted to be a part of that and also like bring more of that to the city. And so that's kind of what I pitched them. So um all of the flags now at the track are made from seclow polyester, which is a cool thing that was developed more for for apparel and stuff, but it is a biodegradable polyester. Basically, so whenever the flags end up in a landfill eventually or in the ocean, wherever they end up, uh they can now break down like a cotton or a wool. Whereas before, most synthetic fibers would just leech microplastics into the soil, into the water. Uh and that's what most fabrics are doing now.

But with seclo, it's just allowing them to break down naturally. So, um, I was when I first heard about CELLO, I was like, uh, have you thought about it for flags? And they were like, I think you probably are the first flags to do that. So, um, yeah, when when I thought about the technology, I was like, well, how cool would it be for the first roll out of that to be at the largest stage possibly on Earth, you know, which is the Indy500. I mean, I think there's probably more flags at that event than any other event in the world, I would think. Yeah, I can't

right 300,000 people. Like

maybe the only other shot would be the Olympics

just based on representing, you know, countries. Yeah.

But like like I'm not sure cuz I've never been there to see like every 10 ft on two and a half mile like a thousand flags is a crazy amount and that's just like table stakes,

right?

When you think about like we fly five flags on our truck going in there. You're y

so like like I'm a you know if you're talking about like flags per person you know like your average

a flag PP measurement.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because we're all about data analytics here.

Yes.

You get the opportunity to be the official flag of the IMS.

I mean and you're rolling out a new kind of like

Yeah.

I mean syn not synthetic you're a new

more sustainable option material. Yeah.

I mean, was that a little bit nerve-wracking to try something new with the biggest stage?

Um, yes and no. Because here's the thing, it's it's polyester, right? So, like our flags have over the years that I've made flags for good, I'm a nerd. So, I wanted my flags to be the one that I would want to buy. Like they are top quality in my opinion, being a flag nerd, not just being the business owner. So when I met with Selo, they were like, "Well, it's 98% the exact same polyester. They just put 2% of this whatever it is to allow the microbes to break it down." So in the end, I wasn't that nervous cuz I was just like, "Well, it's it's the same polyester we've always used, just, you know, a tad bit different." So I can I can show you like, you know, it it's basically the same.

Okay. Yeah.

I mean, I was I Okay, I respected that. I was like, "Oh, man. rolling out something new on the biggest stage like that would be a little bit

Yeah, I mean they were they were using I think nylon before and I I'm in the flag world that's their two big camps and I'm more of a polyester than a nylon person but

yeah you know

I mean how many different flags do you have available at flags for good

over a thousand different um at least sizes and designs. Yeah.

No way.

Uh talk to me about your new facility. You guys aren't at 16 tech anymore.

No, we moved finally. Um, we found a permanent home. So, we're in Fountain Fletcher, right across from Blue Beard. So, if you're ever down there, uh, come across the street. We're right across from Blue Beard. And we, as part of that, we made a, uh, little storefront, which is basically just open whenever I feel like working it, uh, right now, but come month of May, we're going to be open every day except Sunday.

Nice.

So, come get your race flags at Flags for Good in person or online. Here's the other cool part. As with having this new facility, you can order online and then click into storere pickup at checkout. You don't have to pay for shipping and then we'll just put your order in front in our front door area and you can just come pick it up anytime we're there. So, you don't have to wait for the store to be open. So, we have pickup options. We obviously get deliver. Yeah, it it's been so much fun to actually like meet the people that are buying our flags, you know.

How many flags do you believe you you've sold over the years? I know we've had over 150,000 orders.

150,000 orders. But you also think like

there could be two, three, five, six.

Yeah. Like, you know, average average FPO flags per order. Plus, you think about a,000 flags plus to the speedway.

Right. Exactly. And that includes like wholesale orders that, you know, we're selling. Honestly, before I even moved to Indiana, Silver in the City was carrying our flags. Stomping Grounds was carrying our flags before I even moved here. So, um, we have over 500 stores around the country that carry our flags, and they're mostly small gift shops, um, bookstores, things like that.

Like, what comes next for flags for good?

You know, I don't know. And we have this conversation a lot because most business owners would say like, "Oh, well, you got to scale. You got to always be growing." And I don't know if we want to because we have a good thing going. We have a great quality of life. We have a 4-day work week for all of our employees. We have full benefits for everybody. We have a good little thing going. You know, they're packing flags and bags all day while they're watching Real Housewives. Like, you know, like everybody's happy. And so, it's like,

do we need to screw this up by keep reaching for the next thing, right? Because like you were saying, a lot of people want that freedom, but I think what they're trying to say is they maybe they don't want to not work, but they would love to have a situation where they can work and make their living, but also have free time to pick up their kids or

Yeah. you know, go on vacation.

I But I also go back and forth of like if you're not growing, you're dying.

It's a hard balance.

Yeah, it is. Because it's also like you mean you know if it if you're having a great time, you're having fun, everyone's employed, everyone's like they're also having a good time, your employees are happy, your designs are cool, like what gets you fired up?

Well, I mean here's the other thing. I've always said this is more from in the beginning of Flags for Good. I said I I hope that Flags for Good goes out of business one day because at our core, we're an activism company. And so, yes, I would love to not have to make endgun violence flags to sell to people once, you know, when there's a mass shooting every day, right? I'd love to not have to sell that. I'd love to not have to sell Black Lives Matter flags because people value Black Lives just as much as any other, right? So, there's so many of these flags that I would absolutely love to not have to make and sell.

Yeah. Eventually, if there was no more good left to do, then there'd be no more need to flags

and and but so I think there's still room for flags. Not to put myself out of business, but I do think like flags can exist without h having to be like against something or for something.

Yeah.

I don't know. We we've always been we've always done things backwards. You know, for the first few years on Black Friday, we would not do sales. We would do uh f Black Friday, we're going to donate double instead of do discounts. So, we've always tried to be the opposite type of business than most.

Yeah.

And kind of push back against the capitalist always want more, always sell more, like convince people they need more flags. Like I don't know if that's the goal, you know?

But like on the other side of that, if you sell more flags, you could do more good.

That's the Yes, you're right. So that's the other thing about doing about Flags for Good is like we want to grow, but I don't want to we've never set a like revenue goal or sales goal. We've never done that.

Good for you, man.

I just think we always have to keep our brains on the the good that we're doing. How much are we donating? Who are we donating to? How much good can we do? And I think that's why moving everything over to seclo polyester is part of our growing for good, right? cuz now our flags are donating to charities and they're not polluting the earth. Like we're just constantly

So you don't feel as bad if you're selling a million flags. Exactly. You know, like

and we're Yeah. We're like paying to make things carbon neutral to deliver it to people. So like we're trying to get as much for good into the entire business process possible. a large part of your commitment like it comes down to like your internal moral compass, you know, carbon neutral, all these different like, you know, not polluting the earth, good causes, how much you're donating,

like staying true to your core and your character. Like, I feel like that shows through in spades when it comes to flags for good.

Thanks. I appreciate that. I mean, it it does to counter your point, it sucks a little bit because people always ask me like since we only sell flags we believe in. And by we, it's usually just me, right? People are like, "Well, then you're deciding what's good." And I'm like, "I mean, I guess." Like, but that's what's great about being a flag company. It's like, "Well, you could go buy from somebody else." Like, you don't have to buy from me. All right.

Yeah.

But for the people who

Yeah.

want to buy from somebody who believes in what they believe in

now there's an option. Yeah, I do think that's an interesting place to be at because yeah, what you believe is good is not what everyone will believe is good. Um,

yeah,

which is why I think it's very interesting to be in a place that might not be

I mean beloved for social justice,

you know, like a place like Indiana is not like when you think about the best places to build an activism company that happens to sell flags. I don't think people would put Indiana in the top five choices there. You know, if I'm just being honest,

it No, no, it wouldn't be. And I think that's exactly why we should be here because this was going to be one of my answers to your later questions.

Oh, boy.

I think there is, as much as I would love to live in Boulder, Colorado, and, you know, eat vegan food and be, you know, live in the most blue place possible, right? I think Flags for Good being based here does so much more good because guess what? Now there's another place that LGBTQ people could work and be completely themselves and be affirmed and those are few and far between in Indiana, you know, where they, you know, and and the amount that we can donate to local charities like IY and Trinity Haven and Y'all and all these things like those people are doing real work here that needs to be done here, you know. And so, yes, as as much as we might belong in a place where, you know, we can look around and see pride flags in every window, I feel like here, just us planting our roots and having a small threeperson company uh does more good here in Indiana than it does anywhere else. And I felt that in Texas, too.

And so, you know, I think being based in a red state is I think what we'll always do. I mean, yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, we go from like self-help to like the deepest parts. Do you think that the stereotype of Indiana that like someone that lives in Colorado would be like, and they're probably in my comments, they might be in your comments.

Like, they're in a lot of Indiana people's comments. Like,

I mean, stereotypes are stereotypes because there is probably some truth rooted in them, but like

I don't know if you're from your experience, would you say that the stereotype of Indiana is true? Indiana is two things. There's Indianapolis and the answer to that one is no. People in Indianapolis are metropolitan, I'll say. You know, like it's like any city in in America. You're going to see so much diversity, right?

Uh people outside of Indianapolis maybe are the stereotype, but I think the the true answer is a lot of people don't have a stereotype of Indiana people at all. Yeah, that's what I I always hear is like if I go to New York and say, "What do you think of Indiana?" Like,

"Yeah, where's that?"

Like they're like, "I don't I don't think about Indiana."

Exactly. Yeah.

And I think that's like you talk about Speed City, you talk about all these things. It actually isn't getting necessarily getting people to like Indiana.

It's just like, think about it at all. Like I wonder this if you were to go out and survey the entire United States. Like, you know, you survey one person from every state and you ask them to just like list states, you know, not in alphabetical order, just like the first one that comes to your mind to the last one.

Like, I don't know if we're in the top 50% of that.

Probably somewhere around like 37 if I had to guess.

You're probably right.

You know, like if you were like, "Oh, yeah. I think about California, Texas, New York, Florida." You know, even better is if you're on Reddit, there's like a lot of times they'll get Europeans or something to label the states that they can give them a blank map and they like label them. That's a good one.

They never get Indiana. I'll tell you that.

Oh, no chance.

And and you know what? Like we're saying all this, but it's not necessarily a bad thing because you're not starting from a deficit. You're starting from nothing. And I think Indiana,

from somebody who moved here, who had a blank slate of what I thought of it,

it has completely surpassed my expectations. And if you look at everything people said during the Final Four this past few weekends,

people were like, "Wo, did not know that Indianapolis went this hard." Yeah.

Right. So many people were they come here for a conference or something and they leave going,

"Yeah,

wo." What I think that is uh interesting there that I do think will hold Indiana maybe back a little bit from being like a top, you know, a top five like a known state is like if you think of the top I would say three states like probably with the biggest brand awareness

California, Texas, Florida, they're polarizing. You either love Texas or hate Texas. You either love California or hate California. And so many of the like again those numbers like let's say 30 through 50 maybe like 30 through 45

they're just like whatever you know like we do have a blank slate but you kind of have to pick an identity a little bit

and like go into go all in on something.

This might have been before we started recording but you were saying that

if if someone doesn't hate it then someone won't love it either. And I I feel that about lots of brands, right? And I Yeah, you have to be something and you have to be proudly something. And some people are going to hate that and that's okay. That's actually a sign of success.

But I think when it comes to Indiana succeeding, I think it's going to come down to the government. And I'm going to get political here. I'm sorry. But when you drive to the border and you cross into Illinois or you cross into other states, guess what? you earn more human rights as soon as you cross the border, right? And and I've told the ACLU this.

I was like, you should put billboards on the border and it says once you cross this line coming into Indiana, you now do not have access to female healthcare. You do not have access to legal marijuana, which literally every other state touching us has some form of legal marijuana, right? You lose rights when you when you come into this state. And whenever they tried to um do the abortion ban, companies like Salesforce and uh Cumins and all of these giant corporations that are headquartered here wrote to the government and they said, "Y'all, we can't attract talent to come move to Indiana because they're giving up human rights when they move here."

Like, why are you doing this? It's bad for business.

Yeah.

Like, take take away the human rights aspect of it all. It's bad for business when people don't want to live here.

So, you can cut all this out if you want.

No, no, no. I I think it's an important conversation to have.

Yeah. Because my employees don't feel safe living in their home state, you know, like that's not good. You want people to be proud to live here and when you take away their rights or you tell them what they can or can't do, people aren't going to be proud of that.

Yeah. I also don't want this to be a show that just like lives in like rosecolored glasses of like

cuz I mean while I one I think it's good to have conversations about things that I don't have a perception of

you know like that's not um I mean it's something you see every day you're out and about and you're learning about it but talking and having discussions about that is very important like that's why we try to bring on so many different voices onto the show because it helps people like my Indiana isn't necessarily your Indiana and your Indiana is not your employee Indiana like

Right.

Yeah. And I think that's important to have a dialogue,

right? And that's, you know, the beauty of diversity is at least broadening your worldview.

Yeah.

Because if we're just going to sit and talk cis straight white man to cisra white man, cool. But our experiences are very similar, right? And if you talk just by expanding your worldview and putting yourself in other people's shoes and you realize, oh, if you're queer in Indiana, like you have you have to think about

Yeah.

bathrooms and you have to think about changing your ID and you have to think like there's so many things and it's things like Gen Con who are like threatened to not come anymore.

Yeah.

Because people don't want to come here and that's

Yeah. that's bad for the state and that's where it's like

but on the other side I will say like there's you know people that don't want to come here but then also I would say again this is like in a the microcosm of like

we do create a downtown environment that does seem pretty inclusive and a great host. It's kind of just like the optics, too. Like when you again like

there's been different legislation and different pieces where it's like people on the outside looking in are like, "Oh my gosh, you live in like the most Republican mecca of like the world." And then like you walk around downtown and I would say like you're right. I mean, you kind of talked about

your experience of Indianapolis is not

that. Yes.

Like and I would I don't know. It is interesting because I I always feel like some of the loudest voices from the outside don't actually spend time in it. And is it perfect? No, definitely not. Like there's always improvements to be made. There's always a place to

to, you know, make this a place that everyone's proud to be from.

And again, that's it is going to continue to like take work and you you know, you have to keep going. But it does seem as though the loudest voices are the ones that like see the news headline or whatever it is. And yes, you know, that can be bad, but like walk around the streets of downtown during something like a final four. Granted, that is like a pretty

like a pretty bro event, but I do think that we do end up being whether it be Gen Con, whether it be the firefighters convention or whatever it might be,

I do think that downtown Indianapolis is a place that people can thrive in

100%. And that's why I go back to it seems like there's two Indiana because I've I I very much believe that about Indianapolis. I love this city. It's so diverse. It's so safe. It's it's a great place to be. But then I hear stories of uh cuz we also went and worked at like Peru Pride in Peru, Indiana. Tiny little town.

Yeah. And so many people there that came out were like, "This is the first time I've ever been able to like, you know, go to a pride event or to, you know, wave this flag proudly." You know, that that's also Indiana and it's very real. And

I don't know. I I will always stand on people being able to be themselves, whoever they want to be.

A lot of it comes down to just talking to people.

Yeah.

You know, like that's one of the things that I love about what I get to do. So, I get to sit here in Indianapolis and have conversations with leaders of, you know, social activist companies and then I can go to South Bend and sit down with like a lifelong resident of Northern Indiana and learn like what makes them think and act the way that they do and and be the way that they are.

I don't know. I just think that there is a a value of listening to other people's experiences even if sometimes it's a hard conversation to sit in. Totally. Like that's why I like want to make sure like you're like, "Oh, you can cut this part out." No, we're not going to like it's part of it. It's the dialogue, you know? And

and anything if all you ever if all people ever hear is just the echo chamber of like

reinforcing the current thoughts that you have like

I don't know that doesn't seem like a a lifelong commitment to learning. So

totally

one I I just appreciate it, dude. Uh I think the work you're doing is awesome. Like I've been I think you were you're one I think that when we did the the tailgate we got a flag for good for this

we were in the same building. Yeah that's great.

So man I just appreciate all the work that you're doing. I'm excited to

again we're going to dive into a few fun things about the state of Indiana as we close out here.

I do want to go do

I just want to give you the rest of these your you know typical flag.

We got I mean we've got the obviously

IMS the IMS flag. Come on. What's this guy? This one is a vintage uh logo. That's

Oh, welcome race. Is there bricks on the bottom of it?

Yep. Bricks on the bottom of that flag.

Anyone who's watching at home is getting a really really cool visual here. Like this thing is sick.

Yeah. So, and then I mean I just brought you kind of one of everything. We've got bunting, we've got patches, we've got this, but this is special.

Okay. Wait one second. I'm really excited about this bunting. I'm going to hang it across the back of the like I want to hang it across the back of the studio. I think that would be perfect. But tell me why this is special.

Okay. So, as when I first moved here, obviously I collect flags. We didn't even talk about how I somehow got the original Indianapolis flag. So, I have that. It's in Flags for Good. We have a little mini museum for it.

How How did you get that?

I called the designer of it out of the blue and he sent it to me. Crazy crazy story. But another thing that I, you know, when I was getting into the history of Indianapolis and its flags, I saw these like square IMS flags that were on these sticks and they were like old souvenirs basically. And I I started collecting them on Facebook Marketplace cuz I was like, "This is cool." And for some reason, this like collection of flags died off. And so when we became the official flags of the IMS, I was like, "I want to kickstart this collectible line again."

And so I'm making 500 of each of these designs every year. That's it. They're collector's items and they're just going to be from whatever. So this is the first one and it's the vintage logo that we're kind of going with as our the first sort of like theme of our official partnership. So this there's only 500 of these. Uh they will be for sale at Flags forGood only.

And May 2nd we're going to have a big porch party at Flags for Good. You're invited.

Yeah. Um, and that will be the first day you can buy these. So,

and they'll probably be gone ASAP, Rocky. Like,

I would hope so. That'd be really cool. But you get the first one.

Let's go.

So, there you go.

So, this is We're saying this is number one and it's going to count up to 500,

correct? So, now there's 499.

This is one and there's 499 left, but you're going to do a different one every year.

Yes. So, restarting that collection.

Yeah. I was going to say what is another like famous like um people collect Oh, one is like the ticket design like people collect the tickets for it

or the golden or the bronze badges. Yeah.

Yeah. Like different stuff like like I think that's so cool where it's like oh you want to get your flag every year to like it's almost like an album cover

like you know the the 2026 version is here.

That's so awesome man. Thank you so much. This is definitely going up here on the back in the set. Incredible.

And everyone is invited to the May 2nd event. It is an official Porsche party with the IM. There'll be pace cars. There'll be simulators. We might have drivers.

They told me we might have a wiener mobile.

I don't know. Not going to promise that

potentially. You never know.

Yeah. May 2nd at Flags forGood 1 to 4:00 p.m. They'll be giving away 200 porch party starter kits for free. And those are incredible value. So, be one of the first 200 people there. Um, yeah, it's gonna be a blast. We'll have DJs. It'll be so much fun.

Heck yeah. I love it. May 2nd.

May 2nd.

Amazing, man. Well, hey, Michael, I appreciate you coming on, sharing your story.

We've come to the end of the show where we ask the same three questions. So, this question is brought to you by our friends at JC Hart. They are leader in creating enjoyable living experiences at apartment communities all across Indiana and beyond. Check them out at homejart.com. My question for you, why do you call Indiana home? I continuously choose to call Indiana home because I believe in what this place currently is. I love it, but also what it could be. And I've met so many people here who want it to be the next Austin, the next Nashville, right? The next big thing where people are moving here because it's so cool. And I I'm I that's infectious and I want to be a part of that. And so I think Flags for Good, choosing to be here and to plant its roots here and to tell the story of this place uh I think is so fun and that's why I choose Indiana as my home.

I love it, man. That's uh that's fire. Okay, couple rapid fire questions.

What's your favorite flag?

The Canadian flag.

Maple Leaf. That's wild. Okay. Um if you could design any flag in the world, what would it be?

I think New York City.

Yeah. I I think it's a city that deserves a good flag and it doesn't have one. And some of the all the the great cities of the world have good flags and New York doesn't. So

in New York

Mhm.

concrete jungle where dreams are made of.

Mhm. 100%.

That's okay. That'd be a good one. I do believe cuz you were spot on with the Chicago comment earlier. Chicago flag. Pretty good. Okay. I have like just like a thought.

Yeah.

If I was Morsville, you talk about like the birthplace of the Indiana state flag.

Yeah.

Which one? And we didn't even get into like whether or not it was real or not, but

uh

I would put the largest flag of Indiana ever. Like I would like be known.

Yeah.

If I was Morsville and the who the guy who's credited with designing the Indiana state flag, they should have like a world or Yeah. world's biggest Indiana state flag.

Yeah.

That's like a fire towards the giant. Come on.

Let's talk.

Yeah. Again, a giant What's the biggest flag you guys have ever made? Um, so we made a giant pride flag and it went up to um it's a university up in like Warsaw, Indiana.

Oh, Grace.

Yeah. So that one hung. It didn't fly. The the biggest flag we ever flew was right here on the One America Tower. So we made a flag for the for the Indiana Indianapolis Indians.

Oh yeah. Their new brand.

I saw that.

Yeah.

The Indy.

Yeah. So that that was flying up on top of the uh One America Tower and I got to go up there and hoist it and boy that was terrifying. Was that like a you

Oh, I didn't get to do the because that's dangerous. But I was there for it for its raising. And

were you like ner Yeah. Like, oh, please don't blow away.

Oh, yeah.

Are my grommets good?

Well, yeah. I just got an email today that the one of the gro of the grots failed today. But that's They say those flags only last a week.

Well, that was longer than a week, wasn't it?

I know. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, like is it like

Well, we have we have extras and we'll help fix it.

You have to go like fix it. Yeah.

Cuz like they say that those big flags only fly for a week.

A week. Yeah. at One America they like rotate them out.

Yeah, because a lot of wind. Think about the physics. Yeah. I mean the wind is insane and the physics when you when a flag is that big is 15 ft by 25 ft.

So I mean when it's that big the the

not to go nerdy but the physics of like the force on the on the end of the flag when it whips I mean it's almost breaking the sound barrier. Like that's how fast those can start going.

And so yeah it's it's a lot of force on those.

You're from Texas. You've lived in Indiana for the past few years. If you could sh and you've shipped flags literally all over everywhere you have shipped flags. You've made flags that represent different nations and states and you know people.

If you could shout it from the rooftop, what's one thing the world needs to know about Indiana?

Indiana is a home for people who want to create their future and it is a home for so much creativity that I did not expect. And I think it goes down to what we were talking about earlier is that we are constrained by the geography and by everything else. And Indiana forces you to make your life and the life and the place around you amazing. And I feel like that's what I have found here is that you can afford a house. You can afford the life that you want and still travel and do everything else. So

the other answer I had prepared for this was

corn sweat is real. You ever heard corn sweat

where it like heats up things because like it makes the corn sweat.

Yeah. Yeah. There's like I come from Texas and we was at the Gulf Coast and it was humid

and I was like ah the north won't be humid and it's not by weather, it's by the corn. The corn makes the humidity and it blows from like Illinois and the rest of Indiana and the humidity from the corn sweat comes to Indianapolis. So when you move to Indianapolis, be prepared for the corn sweat.

Be prepared for some corn sweat. Okay, this is your opportunity to shed some light on a part of the state that more people need to be talking about. What is a hidden gem in Indiana?

Bike party.

Yes. This is Have you done bike party?

I haven't done it, but I've heard this is like a bunch of people ride bikes. They got like the neon lights on them and you're hanging out and just bouncing around.

Dude, okay. Every second Friday

bike party happens. Rain or shine, doesn't matter. It's been going 10 years now. And bike party is the coolest thing I've done in Indianapolis. And I'm not a bike person. Okay, but I'll tell you what, the first time I showed up to bike party, there were kids.

There were old people. There were people of every race. There were people of every demographic you can think of. It was the most diverse group of people I've ever seen. And like the the one commonality is you have a bike, some of them are neon, some of them are decorated. One guy has a wiener dog in his bike.

There's a ton of people with boom boxes on their bikes. And literally, we just ride around Indianapolis. You get to see new neighborhoods. And here's the best part. As you're going through these neighborhoods, people are coming out on their porches and like they're just like, "What is going on?" And they're so happy.

And everybody's like, "Yeah." And everybody's cheering like, "Bike party." Like it's the coolest and most fun.

How many people come together like in the summer for bike party,

dude? Hundreds. And like to the point where you like there's entire light cycles that like cars can't move because the street is completely bo blocked by bikes just going and it's you don't ride fast like if don't worry about having to like keep up.

It's just we're just vibing

and there's just you find the person who's got the boom box that's got the music you like. You ride next to them the stops twice. Sometimes there's like DJs at the stops. I'm telling you, it's the last bike party, there was a guy that came from Michigan that was just like I just came to Indie for bike party. Like literally, it's the coolest thing in Indianapolis.

Bike party. That's a great hidden gem.

Thank you. I'm so glad nobody else has said it before. I was like,

that's a fire. That's a fire hidden gem. Bike party. The second Friday of the month.

Yeah.

Rain or shine.

Rain or shine.

Heck yeah.

Just find them on Instagram.

Let's do I got to go. I got to check that out. All right, final question of the day. This is your chance to shed some light on someone that the state needs to know about. Someone who's doing inspiring, amazing things. Who's a Hoosier we need to keep on our radar? Someone who's doing big things.

I got to say Andrea Hunley.

Second one to say that one.

Really?

Yeah. Number two.

Dang. I wanted to do the first. No, but but they're right. I mean, Andrea, you know, I I've never really met politicians before, but I met Andrea as a person, not as a politician.

Yeah.

This is the f when I moved to Indiana. This is the first time I've ever been represented by somebody who actually believed what I believed in in my whole life cuz I'm from Texas. And Andrea is an incredible state senator and you know she was a principal before that educator and now it just came out that she's running for mayor which I'm so excited about. So, um I know I'm going to be knocking doors and telling all my friends about Andrea Hunley, but yeah, she was the person who like on our grand opening like, you know, announced made a declaration or whatever about the opening of Flags for Good. So, she's she's awesome and everybody needs to needs to pay attention because Indianapolis needs a mayor that represents the city and uh she's running. So, it'll be great. It'll be it'll be awesome. Imagine a black woman mayor of Indianapolis. Jeez, it'd be incredible.

Yeah. Uh

we might get better roads. We'll see.

TBD. Dude, we were voted number one roads in America.

That is crazy.

It's Are you What roads are they?

The loudest voices. Again, this is one as someone who travels the state of Indiana.

Okay.

Okay. The city of Indianapolis. Tough roads. Not good there. But how many more mile? There's 4,800 miles of roads in Indie. I70 sucks.

But like largely other than that, it's not that bad. And so I could like again the loudest voices are here talking about the massive potholes on Kesler or whatever. True. True. I'm not again I'm not dying on the we have good roads, but if you were to survey the entire state

Yeah.

like the it's it's kind of an echo chamber of Indianapolis, I would say,

and I7 echo chamber of I70 and Indianapolis. I think it is the perfect uh example of the difference between the state and in the city of Indianapolis because I I've learned the reason because when I first moved here I warned my parents when they was like hey when you come visit we're driving on the moon basically and they're like it can't be as bad as New Orleans and I was like it is it's worse and and they were like Jesus like this is so bad. Well it's because it was it was funded by mile of road not by lane mile right. So, if you had a two-lane road in in rural Indiana that doesn't get used very much, it's getting the same funding as a five-lane road in the middle of Indianapolis. So, they finally fixed that. That checks out because again, like I we go everywhere like and I will go up to South Bend, I'll go down to Evansville and it's like

there are strips again, I7 going towards Ohio, horrible. Like, it's so bad. Yeah. The city of Indianapolis largely like has a bunch of potholes they need to fix, you know,

but you go to a place like Hamilton County, you go to, you know, all the way up, all the way down, all the

they're not that bad. So that makes a lot of sense on lane miles versus miles of road like that totally checks out.

So hopefully like you talk about how many lane miles there are on a place like 465.

Yeah.

Holy smokes.

Exactly. So hopefully it'll get better and it but there's it's so complex because there's federal funding, there's state funding, and there's city funding and it's just all the roads are owned by different people.

The more I learn about politics, the more I'm like, "Oh my gosh."

Thank goodness for people who want to do that because it's it's wild.

Michael, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing with Flags for Good. from a side hustle in your spare bedroom

to now over 150,000 different orders. The official flag of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway flying literally across the world to swap flags like from here to to Dublin. Like that's nuts, man.

And what I respect, not everyone has to agree. Not everyone will agree. Like that's just part of it. Yeah. But anyone who's willing to come on and talk about what they believe in and stand for something for you, you're standing for what you believe is good, what what is good to you. And that's okay.

Mhm.

And I think that one people who listen to people with diverse perspectives, with different perspectives, and actually listen and hear what you're saying.

Um, I think there's just a lot in this journey to become the best version of Indiana possible. There's a lot we can all learn. Yeah. even if we don't agree with everything with each other, you know, like having conversations like that are are good for a place.

So, I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you sharing your story. Keep up the good work. If people want to support you, if they want to follow you, if they want to learn more, if

they want to see your TEDex talk, where can they do that?

Uh, so I mean, flagsforgood.com is our website there. My TED talks are up there. Um, obviously flagsforgood.coms if you want to go straight to the Indy500 stuff. Go there. That's where it's at. That'll be available May 2nd.

499 are left. I have the first one. Let's go. Hey, we appreciate you stopping by and we'll talk soon.

Yeah, man. See it.

This show is made possible by our friends up at Sweetwater. Whether you're looking to start a podcast or take your content to the next level, click the link in the description to see all my gear recommendations at Sweetwater. If you want a behind-the-scenes look at everything we're doing across the state, make sure you follow me on Instagram and Tik Tok, Nate Spangle. Thank you so much for listening and being a part of what makes the Hooer State great. We'll see you next time here on Get