He Prosecuted Murder Cases… Now He Leads a Cybersecurity and AI Company

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My guest today is Brian Vaughn. He is the president and general counsel of Exos, a family of companies providing cyber security talent and IT solutions all across the United States. But before he was in all things IT and cyber security, Ryan led Indiana Sports Corp. as the president and served as chief of staff for Indianapolis Mayor Greg Ballard. I'm really excited to dive into this journey. We will we'll call Spade a Spade.

He is a Waw Bash alumni, but we we don't hate that here. It's all right. We're we're friendly to all. But talking about your journey from, I believe, deputy prosecutor, then going into the private side, getting into philanthropy, like all of these different things that you've done. I'm really excited. You are a proud patron, I think, since you were 3 years old, moved to Indianapolis, proud Ben Davis giant.

Uh, I'm really excited to talk about all things Indianapolis today. Welcome to the show. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Uh, I I am excited even though you are Wab Bashrad, but we will not we're not going to hold that against you here because you have done a ton for the city of Indianapolis. And I mean, right before we pressed record, you talked about kind of learning the hard way that impact and busyness are two very important qualities for you.

Um, talk to me. One, I want to dive into the the role of a deput deputy prosecutor and how someone ends up in that role. So, you graduated from Waw Bash. You move back to Indianapolis. You go to McKenna here in Indie. Yes.

It wasn't called McKenna at the time. That's how old I am. But yeah, [laughter] I Indianapolis. But yeah, law school. Okay. Graduate law school.

And this is the thing that I find interesting is there are so many lawyers. I think when you first learn about a lawyer, you learn someone there. It's like you're in a courtroom like this person is guilty or my client is innocent. But then there's like there's attorneys that only work in contracts and attorneys that work for the state. There's just so many different ways that career path can take you. How did you end up choosing like I mean prosecute that's like the litigation side of things like being in a courtroom saying that hey this person is innocent/guilty.

I was just really excited about the opportunity to do trial work. Um and you know I really didn't have that perspective even through college of all the different paths a lawyer could take. Wasn't really till I got to law school where that kind of opened up to me. But I had always been really interested probably just from like watching TV. That's what everyone thinks a lawyer is, right? you go to court and pound on gables and make tons of money and all that kind of good stuff.

And so I I thought when I was in law school, they have a program where if you've completed a certain number of core hours and you've passed an ethics exam, you can actually while you're still in law school, you can go be a prosecutor as long as there's a licensed lawyer in the room. What's an ethics exam? It's just a part of the bar, right? You have to pass certain exams. Um they want to know how you're going to behave, how you'll deal with certain situations, client confidentiality, um conflicts of interest, things of that nature. Wow.

So kind of just like seeing how like truthful and how much Yeah. how ethical you are. That's wild. There's a test for that. Yeah. Absolutely.

And you have to pass it. Yeah. So you end up starting in the on on that route and then you like what's the first rung of the ladder of becoming like if you would have wanted to become like the prosecutor what's the first rung of that ladder? Yeah. So, when I started, I was in my third year of law school. Um, and I started in just lower level uh, you know, criminal court.

So, sort of your classic public intoxication, drunk driving, you know, uh, barfight kind of cases. And, um, you know, when I was practicing, that was a lot of fun. Um, literally on my first day, we walk in and they hand you a a 5-in binder. I'm sure they do this much differently now, but they called it the MUN Bible. And it was literally um every case that was going to appear in that courtroom, you'd open it up and here's just a list of questions you need to read of every of every witness that comes up in order to prove your case. And so it was literally trial by fire.

Uh day one I was doing um you know cases in front of a judge. Day one as the third cuz who are you represent? Are you representing the the city? Yeah, the city and the county. Yeah. Okay.

So you are like you are a an extension. and you're like, "Hey, you broke this person broke the public intoxication law." Like they caught you down in downtown outside of Wild Beaver at 4:00 in the morning. Like, you shouldn't have been there. And you're like, you're asking like, is it that kind of case? Yeah.

Normally bringing in the arresting officer um before you go to trial. There's usually a a parade of defense attorneys and defendants behind you who are trying to work this out before it goes to trial. They're going to get a better deal. um if we can work it out before we go to trial if they're found guilty at least. And so if you can't come to some sort of resolution, then you're just immediately up um in these lower level courts because they have so many um so much volume in case load that they have to burn through, you know, 20 a day or 20 session, morning session after session. And so that's uh I would say a much more transactional practice.

But once you got a little experience and you move up to, you know, minor felonies and major felonies, then ultimately, you know, I did four different murder trials before I left. Holy. How long were you there? Uh, I was there about 6 years. 6 years. Yeah.

And so you And then once you move up, you go from seeing lots of like small level cases, you know, like public intact, stuff like that. Then what did you have to go up to to start to get like some of the big the heavier hitting cases? Yeah, I mean really it's uh you know demonstrating competency in kind of a war of attrition, you know, as lawyers leave and take private sector jobs or flip over to defense council. Yeah. Um opportunities above you um become available. This always intrigued me too.

Like I would say working in that space as like a prosecutor or like any sort of like litigation, I don't know if that's like the most lucrative way to use your your JD, you know? Like I think that going on the private side and working in I don't know real estate or contract law or mergers and acquisitions you know general counsel that seems like definitely a more lucrative way like what draws people into working in that like prosecutor more public sector type role. Yeah for me it was I knew I would get more experience immediately like if you went into like a major law firm like a Barnes and Thornberg where I worked or whatever you're really going to have to work your way up for opportunities. Um, I know and and I tell young people this like if if you can afford it um and you're young so you're probably already broke um go work in government because government will give you a disproportionate amount of responsibility more than you're probably capable of and you'll just learn faster.

And so for me, the idea of first interning there and then once I passed the bar, becoming a full-time prosecutor was I want to get as much trial experience as a as a lawyer as I possibly can, knowing that eventually I was going to flip over to the private side. But I mean, when I started as a deputy prosecutor, we made $29,000 a year. [laughter] No way. Yeah. And when I left um and I was prosecuting public corruption and murder, uh I was making $47,000 a year. So it it is definitely not a path for people who want to use their JD to get rich.

Like it is it is a genuine service. It's it's much better than that now. But um yeah, it was I had a very patient, understanding wife who helped put me through law school to um take take a job making $29,000 a year. I mean, you got to have love for the game at that point. Absolutely. Okay, so I I do want to talk a little bit uh before we get to the next stop in the journey.

I don't know. going through the process of a trial seems uh like something very heavy morally, you know, like something very heavy to like, you know, do you have all the facts? Like you're there claiming one thing and you're claiming another thing. It seems like a very stressful and challenging I don't know just career path in general like uh versus like some of them are cut and dry where it's like you know all the facts are presented there's a video we know that you did this like blah blah blah blah like talk to me about you know like the mental toll that being a prosecutor deputy prosecutor takes on somebody. It is heavy. Um, and you don't want to going back to our ethics conversation, you should never be taking a case to trial or pursuing it to some sort of like plea or resolution.

If you are not 100% convinced that this person is guilty or that you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And so, you know, there's that threshold, but once you reach that threshold, um, then your mind really is is focused on the victims. You don't want to let them down. you know, they've they've hurt somebody, they've killed somebody, they've damaged, uh they've stolen from them, um what have you. And really, that becomes the motivation. Then how do I how do I put on the best case to make sure that there's justice for these family that's been injured or hurt?

And and um it's a heavy burden. Um especially when you get into those more serious crimes where, you know, someone's been murdered. Um, yeah, you know, that's that's a it's a really I mean, I can't even start to to fathom that. Especially, you're okay. I don't know what age, but you did it for 6 years after graduating law school. I mean, you're not even 30.

Like, you're probably like in your mid to late 20s, right? Like, was there ever a moment where you just like something was put on your desk and you're like, "Oh man, like this is like you might at start off a little bit over your head and you're like, I have to figure this out because there are people relying on you." Yeah. Absolutely. And I had great help and mentors and co-consils. And so this wasn't just a Ryan Bond show.

This is a there's a team effort to go around these things. But certainly one of my most unique cases that I dealt with um my co-consel and I prosecuted a murder where we never found the body of the victim. Um and that had not been done in Indiana before. And so we spent the better part of two years with the assistance of state police and IMPD and uh special investigators really building out this um largely circumstantial case. Um but we were 100% convinced that this um individual had murdered his um aranged wife. And uh so yeah, it was hard.

Yeah. That because um there's a lot writing on that. She had been Karen Joe was her name. She had been missing for you know five years. So, we were borderline cold case here. We didn't want to let that family down.

In particular, her daughter and son, we didn't want to um let down. Man, that'd be like that's a heavy like you come home from work one day and it's like, "Well, yeah, how sweetie. How was your day?" And you're like, "Let me tell you about it." Like that's that's intense. And so after six years of doing that, you then decided to go to is it the private sector?

Is that what you call that? Like go work for a a a firm? I did. Yeah, I actually I remember the exact moment. It was it was a fall month where I did um three um robbery trials of the same 7-Eleven on the east side. Three different trials at the same robbery at the same place.

Uh different people obviously different people say [laughter] and I that's tough. I kind of thought to myself like I've I've reached the point of diminishing returns here. I'm not learning a whole lot. Um and my goal had always been to go to the private side, but I just love being a prosecutor so I was never super motivated to leave. Did did you feel like that was a common occurrence like these are similar crimes being committed or I mean even like I mean you talk about looking in the news now it's like you see the similar people like you know once every couple years it's like oh weren't weren't we just here doing this thing you know not too long ago like is it common a lot of like reoccurring yeah I mean the same crimes occur you know I will say in my experience not many people jump from never been a criminal to murder right there's usually progression of of of mistakes they've made along the way.

But, you know, after 6 years of of prosecuting that, I'd learned um everything I thought I needed to learn about being a good trial lawyer. And so, I thought it was time to, you know, go to the private sector and and sort of realize that that opportunity to make more money and just gain different skills. Yeah. So, then you join and is there like a specific because again, this is like a a segment that you run in typically for lawyers, right? It's like you are a commercial real estate or you're a this or that. What sector do you start to, you know, make your name in, uh, when you go over to Barnes?

Yeah, I didn't actually go straight to Barnes. I went to a small litigation firm, uh, right off and, um, I had a background in construction. I grew up in construction. My dad had a construction company. Um, so I I found sort of a construction litigation niche and immediately got assigned to a case actually involving the construction of the uh, Indianapolis Public Library at the time. And it was a huge litigation case.

And that's the case where I really, you know, I I worked on that and that alone for pretty much an entire year. And okay, so you go from, you know, right right on your first day, you're talking about you're seeing 20 cases, you know, in the morning, 20, you go from seeing a lot of volume to working on one thing for an entire year. Like I just don't have the patience for that. Like that would be that would be super challenging. Yeah. You know, I learned two very important things about myself at that point.

And I was it was I was miserable. Um I I was absolutely miserable which was frustrating. On a 12 month you're working on a case for 12 months. How many days are you in court like presenting facts? Zero. What?

Yeah. Like litigating. You're a litigator, right? Supposedly. Yes. I was But you're mostly doing discovery.

So civil litigation is very different than criminal prosecution. So civil litigation is a lot of factf finding, a lot of document review, correspondence review, deposition of witnesses. I mean the the prep that goes into um civil litigation is is oh god thorough and monotonous and very important uh but not my jam. So you know the things I I kind of had a realization after about a year that um not only uh was I miserable but I knew what made me happy right and I loved being a prosecutor. I loved it. My hair on fire, spinning 20 different plates, um jumping from investigations to trials to uh you know, courtrooms to, you know, uh whatever.

And I was very unhappy just focusing on one thing. And and by the way, I was not doing as good a job either because I was unhappy and I knew that. So I wasn't fulfilling my own potential. Yeah. The second thing, and I, and this is something I didn't realize until I left being a prosecutor, is that I was getting a great deal of emotional fulfillment from that public service element. You know, there's something very rewarding about helping these victims and standing in front of a case and saying, you know, Ryan Vaughn here on behalf of the city of Indianapolis, you know, yeah, that would be super fulfilling.

You talk about six years, your first job coming out of law school and like you get to represent your home. You get to represent, you know, victims. You get to represent people that uh that yeah need help. And you talk about I think a lot today people are not as driven by just financial compensation as they I feel like previously it's like you were only successful if you make a ton of money. Today everyone's like no what's your passion? What gets you fired up?

Like are you making a difference in the world? And you could take for six years straight, you're like, "Yeah, we're making a difference." Like whether it is, you know, what you start at or like, you know, getting all the way up to like I mean, relative for Indiana, Indianapolis, like like the highprofile type, you know, trials that are going on. Um, that would be super impactful. And then one day you're just like now I'm working on this this library commercial construction case for the next 12 months. Like that would be a big change.

When I was doing that, I actually called my old boss, the prosecutor at the time, Carl Brrizzy, and and I I said, "Hey, I need an outlet. Is there something I can do for you?" Um, he said, "Ryan, you can't do any prosecution cases that would be illegal. You should know that." Um, [laughter] he said, "But, um, I I could use some help on my campaign." And, um, that had not been an area of my life that I had ever focused on at that time.

I had not been political, but I decided, all right, that's going to be my outlet. If I can't work in it, at least I can help him get reelected because the prosecutor is an elected position. Correct. I don't know. Something about it like that one that and maybe like sheriff like there's a couple roles within politics that are elected because is it elected on the general ballot like on the like the general ballot or is it elected through um what do they call like delegates? Uh no, it's a popular vote.

Popular vote. Okay. See that's wild. like you got to go one you got to be a lawyer and you got to be the prosecutor and like help you know represent these victims and represent the city of Indianapolis and then like halfway through is it a four-year term I'm assuming it is halfway through you're like all right I got to like show that I'm doing a good enough job to get back reelected. So what did you do for his campaign? Yeah, mostly just after work um during his campaign I would door knock with him.

I' I'd take him to debates. I'd draft policy reviews for him. We'd go over debate prep. Yeah. Um, it was just really kind of as just a a trusted assistant, if you will. Do you feel like that's a hard job to get elected?

Because I feel like nowhere is ever as safe as people want it to be. Yeah. You're kind of like, "Hey, like uh or we've done X, Y, and Z thing, but they're like, well, this is still in the news. This is still going on. Like we could be doing better. Like the grass is always greener on the other side."

I feel like it'd be hard to like have like because is it all about I'm assuming it's mostly about crime. Yeah, I think most local political issues are about crime and livability. Uh whether you're the prosecutor or the mayor or what have you. Um and so the political demographic seems to drive it more than the issues themselves sometimes. Um but but certainly when there are flare-ups like property taxes became a big issue which helped Mayor Balor get elected. Crime was an issue which helped Carl Rzzy um get elected and Carl was the only Republican that won uh at the local level that year.

So, um, crime was certainly a driving factor of of his election. So, this gets you into public service, like well, I guess being the deputy prosecutor, you were already kind of in public service, but now you're like in the political side of it, and you realize that you are super motivated by making an impact for your home, you know, like you're you're driven by that. And so, along this journey, you end up continuing to get deeper into politics on one side and you also end up working for Sports Court. Which which one was first? Sports. I got deeper into politics.

So after Carl's campaign ended, I really didn't have an outlet, right? And he got re-elected. Congratulations. But I got super lucky. Um Jim Bradford, who was the city councelor uh actually for this area here in Broadripple. Um yeah, I used to live at 82nd and College right up the street here.

Uh he had to step down for family reasons. And so in order to backfill that spot, that is more of a delegate election. So caucus members from district what was then district 3 on the city county council would pick his replacement. Um at the time it was largely believed that um Democrats were going to you know Democrat mayor popular wellunded Democrat council controlled the city. Um so there weren't a lot of people like banging down the door to fill Republican Jim Bradford's uh council seat. But I was young um and really interested in in giving back.

And so put my name in the hat. Um I'd like to say it was unanimous, but it was also unosed. So I [laughter] Fair. All right. That's true. At least people liked you.

Like that's good. So I took over the last two years of a four-year term for him. Uh so I was the newest, youngest member of the minority council. Yeah. The most irrelevant person in the city county building. But you're there.

You're in the building though. Come on. Okay. So then you and is that like a nights and weekends thing or is that like a full-time gig? It No, it's a part-time gig. Okay.

So, um there are several committees uh the council would meet um once a month on Monday nights at 7:00 and then the committees would meet after work at 5 or 7 depending on what the chairman wanted. We won't dive too deep into it cuz we could do a whole book on UNIGV. But talking about I think that it's important for listeners to understand how the municipality of Indianapolis/Marian County operates versus you know other the city of Carmel or Hamilton County versus Fisers. Uh Indianapolis was actually like at the forefront of combining the city and the county together so that it was all governed by one council. Correct. Yeah, absolutely.

And it and it probably um saved Indianapolis from heading the way of Detroit back when it happened in the late 70s. I mean, it it combined the resources, the tax base, and it really coordinated efforts. You know, you'll find um in other parts of Indiana where the you know, the county commissioners don't get along with the city council doesn't get along with the mayor of the of the town within it. Like there's there can be a lot of political strife, but that unification um I think help compel some really big decisions. Yeah, absolutely. And and I think that if you look around, Indiana is constantly referred to as like the pioneer of that uh practice of uniting that all together of uni the unified government there uh if you will.

So all right. So now you're and at that time are you still are you still working in litigation or are you have you switched over? Uh so at that time almost simultaneously I moved firms. I I left and went to Barnes and Thorberg and I got out of litigation and focused more on government public affairs. So, state and federal lobbying. Um, okay.

All right. So, you're working in government and you are then on the city county council in your words, not mine, the most relevant seat there, right? Absolutely. The young the [laughter] youngest newest person on the the minority side there. And but again, you're you're getting to flex this itch of or or flex this muscle of public service. And um we we've had a couple different uh you know people that are in politics there and learning that like it just takes special people to put themselves in the public eye and you know you go from you know largely if you walk around as like a normal human being you know like 98% of the population likes you like you might have like 2% of people who are who don't like you for some reason but as soon as you put your name into politics you have like 50% of the people that like don't like you who've never met you.

So I'm always like, dude, that just takes some some some broad shoulders if you want to get into a politics there. But then you end up, okay, so now do you does sports court come first or does your time with the mayor come first? After that two-year stint was done, I ran for reelection. Yeah. And kind of political lightning in a bottle hit. So everyone largely believed the Democrats were going to win majority of the council and the mayor's race again.

So most of the incumbent Republicans did not run for reelection. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, Mayor Ballard beats two-term uh Mayor Bart Peterson, and the council flips from Democrat controlled to Republican. So, I went from being the newest, youngest member of the minority to the most tenured member of the majority. Let's go. Literally overnight. Um, come on.

And, uh, and then we had a Republican mayor. So, I served um that term as president of the council. Um, which was which was a blast. Was there any like milestone like huge monumental things that you uh accomplished during your time as president of the city county council? I like to think we did a lot of things. Um we did a lot of things in your backyard right here.

Uh you know, we helped create the tiff uh for Broadripple that built that garage right up there that kind of spurred some development and redevelopment in Broadripple. Uh probably the most impactful thing we did was um consolidate our utilities. They they were all city owned and operated and way un debt and underwater literally. Um so we we actually sold them to citizens. Yes. And we had Jeff Harrison on talking about like cuz I mean one that is an interesting conundrum like or just a place to be in where your public utilities are in debt plus you have to get everything updated by like the next decade or whatever it was.

And you like we've said it like a million times like citizens had to spend $2 billion on Dig Indie to like meet the I don't know again I don't know all the details so fact check whatever it but like to meet the standards of like what the whatever organization was putting the standards down for that. We were under a federal consent decree where we had to clean up our water system. So we were basically polluting the river downtown. every time a storm event happened, your sewage would just overflow into the river. And that that's like not an Indiana only thing. That was like how cities were designed in the like 18 1900s.

It's like it's not like we were like a special like only Indianapolis would do this. Like every major city was built that way where like the storm drainage overflow would just empty into whatever the waterway was. Yeah. No, huge problem. A huge environmental problem. And then you talk about a city slash like the city county council gets like okay well this is going to be a $2 billion development that we need to get done in the next decade like what do we how do you what do you do really the analysis was in order for the city to do it with the debt it had and the way it operated it would have had to raise your utility rates by X um which is going to be you know untenable but if we sold it to a private operator who could operate it more efficiently they they were still going to have to raise your rate but they would do it by X minus Y.

So we knew at the end of the day rates are going to go up, people are going to be unhappy, but we would have a better operator, get out of this consent degree faster and the bills would not increase as much if we sold it. And so that was the thinking. I feel like it's just uh again we go back to this government thing, but it's like you get whatever the info is like all the data is presented in front of you and it's like you know you're going to make a decision that you believe is best and you know talk to everyone but like even with that put anyone in the situation like some some pool of people are going to be unhappy and there's just like that's just the way it goes and that is such like a brutal reality of politics. Yeah, politics is rough. I mean it's it's uh you earn your calluses for sure. Yeah, but uh it's actually fun that you came on when you did because we're gearing up for um I'm working with citizens and the whole nine yards.

We're going to do a 5day canoe trip from Muny to Indianapolis down the White River. We're spending five, we're camping on like islands in the center to show that they're like all of this work that they've done like new life is coming back into the river. And it's like 97% of what what waste would have gone into the water previously is now being captured and not going there. So, it's like a really weird way to word that, but right, 97% of what would have gone in there no longer goes in there. And it's like that it's already making an impact and we're only like a few years into this process which is cool. And I'm sure Jeff did a great job talking about that build, but building this giant storage tank basically under the city of Indianapolis was an incredible feat.

Um believable. It's like what is it? It's 18 feet in diameter and it's like 250 ft in the ground. It's crazy. Like I could again I could talk about all these random things all day [laughter] long but okay. So, you're working through there and I mean eventually though we you go from city county council to getting even more plugged in.

Yeah. So, uh that four-year cycle happens. I ran for re-election and won. Uh however, we lost the majority. So, Democrat majority on the council, but Mayor Ballard was reelected. Um and so, I was back to kind of serving the minority practicing law.

I I was fine with that. Um and then the mayor called me and said, "Hey, you know, my current chief of staff is leaving. Would you consider um stepping away from the firm, stepping away from your office and serving as chief of staff for my second term?" And that was a pretty big decision. Spent most of my life um trying to become a really good lawyer. And here I was in a really good law firm and had a great opportunity.

And then of course it meant also giving up my elected office. But ultimately, I you know, I talked to my mentors and obviously I talked to my wife and that's a pretty unique opportunity to serve as a chief of staff to a mayor. Um I knew I loved the city of the subject matter. Obviously, I'd run for re-election three times at that point. So, I decided uh take a step away from the firm. Um and I became his chief of staff for pretty much the beginning of his second term.

Wow. What is the chief of staff like? What does that role look like for a mayor? Really your most trusted adviser, I would say. Um, but it's a 247 365 job. Um, most people don't do it for, you know, 12 years.

They do it for four or three. Um, it's a short-term thing. Yeah. Because it's so intense. It's super intense. I mean, I think, you know, at the time the city county combined had, you know, just short of 5,000 employees with a $1.

3 billion budget. Uh, I think I had 22 direct reports over departments. So you think everything from, you know, public safety, police, fire, EMS, um, public works, zoning, you know, it all. Dude, talk about like context switching. It's like you're getting a text or like a call or you're doing you're walking into a meeting one day about like police and fire and then the next you're talking about like, "Yeah, we need a new street sweeper." Yeah.

[clears throat] Like I had one day I I'll never forget this. Um I I work out pretty early in the morning. So I was it was a little after 5:00 and I was on my way to the gym and my phone rings and it's um this sweet lady who lived in my council district but certainly had my number because you know I'm not now I'm chief of staff so she had it when I was a counselor and she was calling me to complain about a pothole right out at the end of her court. And so I just, you know, took note of it, told her I'd call her back. And then long day in between and I'm driving home and it's 7:00 at night and my phone rings and it's the chief of police advised me that we might have a terrorist on the loose downtown. And so like that's that's the scope of the things that you have to think about and deal with.

A pothole on [laughter] the end and a potential terrorist like that's crazy. The other piece that I think makes a great person in any public office is even though on the backside you're kind of like that's an insane like opposite ends of the spectrum is like everyone wants to be listened to. Everyone wants to be heard. They want to know that whoever it is in whatever position they're in is listening to their constituents and has their best interest in mind. Yeah. And like, you know, and you're actually listening and you're like, "Oh, yeah."

Like, yeah. If there was a pile at the end of your driveway and every day you were backing over it, like that would be really annoying, too. Like, I can feel that. Yeah. It's It's actually not that much different than what you do. You know, you're hearing from all kinds of different people on all kinds of different issues all the time.

It makes it so much fun. I mean, the job was a blast. I enjoyed it. Uh, worked with amazing people. We did a lot of fun things. Uh, but it's also very demanding.

Certainly. Oh, yeah. For sure. And again, it's like 5:00 a. m. to 7:00 p.

m. And it's like that probably wasn't the latest you ever got a call. Oh, no. No. The real call the the real tough ones in this happen unfortunately three times. The calls at, you know, [clears throat] 3:00 or 4 in the morning where, you know, there's probably been an officer injured and you got to Yeah.

put your student tie on and head down to the hospital and be there for the team. Those are those are really rough. We had Chief Bailey on maybe last year and he came on and kind of like talked through, you know, the Indianapolis police and just like those stories make me um grateful for people who are willing to do that and also grateful that I like get to talk on microphones for a living and like [laughter] hang out here cuz like yeah, you're like 3:00 a. m. and you're down at whatever hospital and like that's you know he talks about having to talk to families and things like that and it's like that people who sign up for that willingly are the true heroes you know like kudos to them. So from there though it that is a sprint you do that for you know not you said it's not like a you do this for a decade it's a you are the chief of staff for a short period of time and then it leads you into your next thing.

So from there, do you then get into sports core? Once the mayor confided to me that he was not going to seek a third term. Um how many terms does a mayor get? Four as many unlimited. Yeah, there's unlimited terms. You could be the mayor forever, you could.

Yeah. If you were just like if you did a really good job. Y Wow, I didn't know that. Is there a reason there's no term limit for mayor? Uh it was just never written into state statute. So um there's no term limit.

Who's the longest tenure mayor in the state of Indiana? Well, I think Hudna did four terms. Uh, our current mayor, Hawket, is on his third. We'll see if he runs for a fourth. But I bet there's a small town somewhere who's like mayor's been there for like 50 years. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Maybe not 50, [laughter] but like maybe like maybe like 30 without a doubt. Like seven terms. Would that be 28 years? Yeah, I I could definitely see that. Like the mayor of Well, Mayor Brainer was the mayor of Caramel for I think that I think seven terms.

Seven terms. Maybe maybe more. I mean, I feel like he probably could have gone for forever if he wanted to. Yep. Like I mean, we're having Sue on soon, too. And you know, I'm excited.

Like Caramel keeps growing, but like going from building what out ever building everything out in Caramel. I mean, uh, Fadness is the only mayor of Fisers. There's never been a different one. That's pretty cool to be the only mayor. Like they they became a city and he became the mayor and no one else has had that. Yeah.

No, that's pretty awesome. a wild is that Fischers is maybe one day maybe potentially going to have their second mayor like eventually I guess that's wild like yeah when they get to like 200,000 residents you know [laughter] um okay but from there then he decides not to seek re-election so you're like okay do I go back to the firm do I like go back and run for another office like what what was going through your head and and what was your thought process in taking your next step I was doing exactly that I I kind of thought to myself all right do I want to go back to practicing law I think what I had learned while doing the chief of staff thing is that I was okay not practicing law. Like I had fun. It was fulfilling. It was enjoying. I didn't sort of miss the practice, so to speak.

So, I was kind of just looking around and then I got a phone call one day from a friend of mine named Alison Meon. Um yes, we had her on talking about the Super Bowl. Yeah, she's a rock star. She's incredible. She's um one of my most favorite human beings on the planet. Uh heart of gold, incredible work ethic.

I actually got to know her and work with her during the Super Bowl. So, I was president of the city council during the Super Bowl. So, we had worked um Okay. Was there any like cool perks like president of the city council and get like something cool for the Super Bowl? Um I got to buy tickets at face value if that's counts. But okay.

Hey, [laughter] that's that's pretty good. That was decent. That was fun. Yeah. I guess you're right. Like, you know, I would rather be like the leader of the the title sponsor than the host city because it's like a government thing.

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. I should have known that. No, you're fine. Um, so she and I got to know each other pretty well and then I also worked with her on on raising some funding for the natiatorum uh rehabilitation and and things of that nature. So, um, she called and said, "Hey, uh, I'm stepping down.

I need to slow down, spend more time with my family." Um, which you now know, Alison, so you knew that that was not going to happen. But, uh, she asked if I was interested. Um, she knew I knew the mission. She knew I knew how to uh operate and coordinate with the city, which is very important in that role. And um I kind of asked myself those same questions, you know, will be a will I be super busy doing a bunch of different things while I continue to be uh learning and growing and does this work support our city and check, check, check.

And I thought, yeah, what an awesome opportunity. So, um stepped away from the mayor's office and uh became the president of Indiana Sports Corp, which okay, we're talking about the city or firsts where Indiana leads. So we talk about Uniggov where we led in that sense. We were also the first like economic development like sports commission across the entire country. Like we invested in the business of sports before any other state of like attracting events and I mean you talk about bringing the NCAA headquarters in here. Like sports has been at the core of Indiana I think since is it the 70s?

Yeah. Even actually before that a lot of people don't know that the AAOU used to be located in Indianapolis. a guy named Frank McKenna in our history. Is that in relation to the law school? Yeah. So that the namesake of the law school?

Yes. The more you know. So um he um uh he was a great athlete. He was actually a great swimmer. Um and was a big part of the AAOU. And that's why if you kind of look at Indiana across the board, like the swimming history in Indiana is pretty prolific.

Like we we talk about how we have more like huge basketball gyms than any other state. We have way more 50 meter pools than any other state. Really? Yeah. But that all really starts with AAU sports and the founding fathers, I call them founding fathers, the we'll say guiding fathers of Indianapolis at that time saw an opportunity to leverage sports not only um for their sporting impact but for their economic impact. And so they wanted to get really really um coordinated about it.

And so they came together and formed this sports commission which was a very novel idea. This is like the like Jim Morris and like this crew of just like people who guided the like amateur sports capital of the world uh goal. Right. Right. Uh Jim, Ted Bowm, Frank McKenna, uh just a lot of really uh we we've been blessed with some tremendous leaders that have helped uh Indian help us move forward and those guys really pulled this together said hey we're going to launch this commission and then what really solidified it was the Panam Games. That's where sort of a loose organization of volunteer board members came together as a more corporate body and had to execute these large events and then it just kind of built from there.

That's a fun plug. Go back and listen to our episode with Milt Thompson. Yeah. He tells some crazy stories about getting is it 84? Yes. 84 Panama games.

Talk about going to Cuba and trying to like meeting with Castro to like get Cuba to come to the Panam G. It's a crazy story. He like he is and he's just a great storyteller and he was the general counsel for the Panam Games I believe. So he's just like an interesting cat and tells some great stories. Milt is a he's a fun guy. He's got a lot of history.

So yeah, I mean he was a uh I mean I believe I'm right. He played baseball at Wittenberg but was also like an MLB draft prospect from Wittenberg like a D3 school. Like kind of a cra I believe. Yeah. No. And you could tell me anything about Milit and I'd be like yeah that makes sense.

He's one of the most interesting people I've ever met. Yeah. [laughter] But you get involved then with Indiana Sports Corps and if if for anyone that doesn't know or you know doesn't know the full thing, what is just like the overarching mission of the Indiana Sports Corp? Uh it's to advance and inspire community through sports. Clockwork that that is a great mission. So he's got it down.

Okay, great. So, you talk about, you know, in the past, oh my gosh, like I don't know, decade where we've had, you know, uh, final fours, the entire tournament, we've had college football playoff, we've had the swimming trials, WNBA allstar, NBA All-Star. Yeah. Like all those things, uh, the work that you all do, the work that they all do at the Indiana Sports Corps helped bring all that to Indian Indiana. Yeah. The life cycle of a major event like that is uh typically, you know, four or five years before the event happens, they go out to bid and you compete against other cities for the right to host that event.

Um this is one of the things Indianapolis does better than anybody in the country is we win that bid process. So we are um very thorough in our approach. Uh you know, great example, NBA All-Star game. So NBA goes out for host. We decide we're going to respond. The Pacers um led this effort with Sports Corp supporting uh every other city literally like mails in their bid response in you know three- ring binders in a FedEx box.

Indianapolis wrapped an Indie car, drove it to New York, put Larry Bird in the cockpit and handd delivered our bid in a in an NBA wrapped indie car with Larry Bird driving it to the commissioner right outside of his of the NBA offices in downtown New York. Right. Like that is that's sick. Yeah. That's going above and beyond. That's how that's how we win these kind of things against other cities who are just uh responding.

Yeah. Well, this is like how also how like the JW became the like world's biggest billboard, you know, like that was for the Super Bowl, I believe, like let's make a giant Lombardi trophy and put it on there. like winning bids by one a lot of different stakeholders all working together from the Colts, from the Indianapolis Indians, from the Pacers and the Fever and all that. Like everyone comes together and sports kind of like helps champion these things and pulls off insanely cool events. Indianapolis community works together better than any other major community in the country. Hands down.

I would put that up against anybody. Um and it's that collaboration, that sort of willingness that we're all in together um and helping each other out. we're not competitive. It goes back a little bit to your Ungov discussion, right? That the city isn't fighting the county. The, you know, the commissioners aren't disruptive.

Everyone sees sports and hosting these events as an ultimate impact. Not only economic impact, but I think another differentiator for Indianapolis is every time we do a major sporting event, it's paired with a major community event. So, Olympic swim trials you referenced, the goal in parallel to that was to teach 50,000 people how to swim, right? That's a life-saving skill. Yeah. Um, so everything, you know, is very deliberate.

The community has to be impacted equally, not just economically. Were you the president when you guys made the bid for the NBA All-Star game? I was the president who made the bid. Yes. So, like, take me into [laughter] Take me into the boardroom or the meeting that you're in where someone says, "Let's wrap an indie car and let's have Larry Bird drive this." Like, like, who comes up with that idea?

I don't remember exactly who came up with it, but there are many occasions where Indiana Sports Corp takes the lead. There are some um especially in the professional world where the franchise will take the lead and we support. So the Pacers were really the driver behind going to get the All-Star game and then Well, Larry was really the driver. The Oh, fair. Yeah. The literal driver.

Yeah. So, uh but we formed what is called a local organizing committee. So, and that is a group of um community leaders who head certain committees. It could be media relations. It could be um what crazy unique ideas are we going to include in the bid? It could be coordinating volunteers, uh hospitality, arrivals, you name it.

There's an event like that. There probably 200 volunteers on this LOC at some level, let alone the the thousands of people who showed up on event day to help. But that's really what makes these events special is that they're inclusive and everyone feels like they could contribute and grow something fun. That's awesome. I love that. So yeah, in your time, right, it was, you know, you won bids for NBA All-Star, Big 10 Championships, College Football Playoff.

Was 2020 the bubble, the whole tournament while you were you still at Sports Court during that? I was. Yes, dude. Yeah. You love just like pain and suffering. [laughter] Like what?

How crazy was that? Uh I don't think I've ever worked harder over a shorter period of time in my life. Um incredibly fun. uh hard work, very rewarding. I think, you know, we we had a sense that the NCA was probably going to have to the NCA canceled the final four the year before, the whole tournament the year before. Uh financially, they could not do that again, right?

So, they had insurance for year one, but you know, 90% of the NCA's revenue comes from the men's basketball tournament. 90 at least at some point. Yeah. So, they have to execute on this because it helps pay. I guess it is so huge. you know, watching the NBA go into a bubble for its championship right around this time of year, obviously, um, we started thinking, hey, we're the NCA's probably going to have to pick a city to host this event because the idea that you're going to be flying people all across the country and staying in different hotels and being on airplanes and all this stuff is just didn't make sense to us.

Um, the NCA had not told us that, by the way. But you start to use that uh, you know, that factf finding lawyer instinct there and you start to put all that together and be prepared, right? So maybe things you you remember back to the pandemic. I mean stuff changed literally every week it felt like. Yeah. Um so we built our own bubble during the summer.

Um they tried to host little startup basketball tournaments to see could we do it right? Could we build our own bubble? Uh what would that look like? We spun up a testing lab so that everyone could get tested for COVID and process those um expedited. So, we had done a lot of leg work um believing that um there was at least an opportunity for us and we got the call. I think it was January 6th um from the NCA.

Um Joanne Scott called us and said, "Hey, we're going to host the entire tournament in one city and we want that to be Indianapolis and we need you, you know, your help to get ready and get rolling with this." And so it was a huge community lift. Um, but we worked at the sports corp at least, we worked every day, I think from January 6th through uh, April 29th just preparing and deconstructing. Um, and and it was I think we did something cuz not only did we host the entire NCA men's tournament leading up to it, we also hosted the Big 10 men's tournament, the women's Big 10 tournament, and the Horizon League tournament. So, we did something like 98 basketball games in four and a half weeks in seven different venues. It was wild times.

That's nuts. I mean, like I feel like someone needs to make a documentary about that. Uh, they did. They did. Yeah. Sports court made a documentary about that.

Yeah. Okay. I gota link that in the show notes. You nailed it. [laughter] There we go. I mean, good ideas.

Come on. I mean, for sure. That would just be nuts like being able to pull that whole thing together. And, you know, again, you talk about the NCAA needs this to go on like they have to, you know, put this tournament out. And I think people needed that, too. You know, like something to, you know, I don't know.

This was like we're over a year into a global pandemic at that point and it's like we got to get some sense of normaly going and what better thing to do that than sports, right? And how what a great honor it was cuz I mean it was it was the seven different venues. Hold on. I'm going to get them. I'm going to get them. Seven different venues.

We had Lucas Oil Stadium. We had Gamebridge Fieldhouse. We had the Coliseum. We had Hinkle Fieldhouse. We had Mackie Arena. Uh we had uh what's it called?

Assembly hall. It's tricky. You kind of already got it, but it was there were two in Lucas Oil. Oh, there we go. All right. Hey, there we go.

Come on. [laughter] Let's go. I love that. I think that there's actually a um because of that there's like a record book or something where it's like Indiana has had more college basketball tournament games played than any other state. That wouldn't surprise me, you know, because we have [laughter] those seven. But I think there's also like historically been games at Notre Dame and historically been games somewhere else.

It's kind of like a cool I think there's like 11 I think there's 11 venues that have hosted an NCAA men's basketball game um across the state of Indiana. But after your time, I'm going to go we're going to we're going to talk about leaving that. I mean, you you're working in a fast-paced environment. You pull off an entire basketball tournament for the NCAA in 4 months. Like that is the fast-paced community give back that you're looking for. What brought you to the decision to go and make another career change?

I kind of got to a point where I thought I probably had one more career move left in me. And um one of the things I hadn't achieved in my life that I really wanted to focus on and see if I if I could do it candidly was I wanted to work in the private sector with a you know high growth company with people that I I knew and liked. And I I kind of got that idea from working with Scott Dorsy. So Scott Dorsey was the board chair who hired me at Sports Corp. So Scott obviously started Exact Target, grew Exact Target, so it's Salesforce. He's now runs High Alpha with other partners, but um his friendship and mentorship kind of opened my eyes to opportunities in that space.

And so I had been kind of unofficially operating on three-year contracts uh with Sports Corp. And you know, after hosting the tournament, um I thought, all right, well sort of done what I wanted to do here. you know, we've we've hosted a lot of major sporting events. We've had a lot of good community impact. We've financially set the organization up for success well into the future. Probably time to, you know, pass the reigns over.

You know, I I kind of look at civic service in those realms like um like a football play, right? Like Indiana's got a long history that needs to achieve a lot. I carried it for 10 yards. Now, it's somebody else's job to carry the ball, right? And so I very very quietly um talked to uh my wife obviously and then uh just a couple close mentors and said, "Hey, this is kind of what I'm looking for. Uh I think it's time for me to move on to the sports corp and kind of focus on this professional aspect of my life."

And I just so happened to uh you know stay connected to a longtime friend of mine. we were catching up uh over a drink and and he was kind of sharing with me that his company was, you know, growing and experiencing a lot of those growing pains. What happens when you grow fast like that? And one thing led to another and and all of a sudden um you know, 3 or 4 months later, he's offered me an opportunity to come over and be president general counsel of what was then SI solutions, which has now been rebranded to Exos. So, it kind of clicked all my boxes again. It was private sector, it was growthoriented.

Uh, I've known Jason and I, uh, the founder been friends for 20 plus years. We've stayed close throughout that time. So, I knew knew what I was walking into, who I was going to be working with, kind of caliber of people. So, it was, uh, both safe and exciting, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, I want to talk through one, what the company does, and two, then going through a rebrand.

Like, that's always a big, you know, you talk about hosting a tournament. you seem to find yourself in all of these like major I don't know major milestones within these organizations. So I start with what the company what the company does. Yeah. So the company was founded 15 years ago as a talent recruiting company. So they would find highly skilled technical talent um and usually place them in other organizations.

So you know on projects at the state or partners with Accenture, Deote, what have you. about 5 years into that journey um Jason decided to uh build his own consulting practice alongside of that. So think sort of traditional outsourced IT solutions. So everything from you know setting up printers and and computers and answering tickets and you know monitoring software what have you. Uh really built that practice out and then about 5 years later saw the title title wave of need around cyber security. so invested in bringing on the right personnel, establishing that brand.

Um, and you know, no shock, 5 years later, here we are looking in the face of AI trying to figure out what that means for for us in the industry. And so, yeah, really exciting company for from his parents' basement to, you know, over 250 employees in a matter of 15 years is is great work on his part. That is crazy. From parents' basement to 250 employees in 15 years. And that's the thing. I think a lot of people think that every every tech story is Mark Zuckerberg.

Every tech story is like, you know, okay, next week it's going to be 100 employees and then next month it'll be 200. And it's like a lot of that's just like staying around, continuing to be relevant, continue growing your business steadily and and then you look up 15 years later and you're like, "Wow, look at look at what we've built." Yeah. Scott Dorsy used to tell me that he referred to Exact Target as his 18-year uh overnight success story. [laughter] See, people even with that, they don't know that. I mean, this was 2000, acquired by Salesforce in 2013, and he probably still stayed on for, you know, like that's wild.

2013 to get to uh that acquisition by Salesforce. Like, that's a long time. And you know, like everyone, especially in that like 200 8 to 2013 time period, feel like every third person, you know, like worked at Exact Target. Absolutely. like literally like, "Oh yeah, I was at the basers and then I was at Exact Target or I was here and then I was at Exact Target." And it was like it's pretty cool to bring like the smartest people in central Indiana together to work on this project.

Like big surprise. It ended up being a huge home run like when you get all the smartest people in the room together. Incredible. And so that's what you guys are doing, right? It's like you're working on you have 250 employees. You're now working on the private side.

Like talk to me about how you're taking lessons from your previous experience in law, your previous experience in public service, and then applying that to the private sector. It starts with a good team. It's all people really. It doesn't really matter kind of whether you're working in sports or trying to prosecute a murder case or, you know, um leading government. Uh you have to build a great team and a great culture of people. Um because without that, you can't accomplish anything.

Yeah. What have you learned about building great teams? Uh it starts with culture. Um you know you you've got to you got to have honesty. You got to have transparency. You got to have people who are motivated to want to achieve something uh big.

Uh people who you know I've listened to you know some of your podcasts and a lot of your leaders talk about this blend between work and life balance. People like that. You know that's how I operate. Like I I get great deal of joy out of the work I do. So I don't, you know, that sort of differentiation between personal and work life kind of disappears because I'm always having fun, right? Uh we're trying to have fun and and and the mentality and the skill sets, right?

So it it's hard it's hard to build a good team and and and once you have that team, keeping them keeping them motivated, um properly rewarded, all that good stuff. But it that's where it all starts. And that's where we're at EXOS. How is you Yeah. coming in as a leader at Exos when you don't have any like previous software tech experience like that's not really been your realm. How do you come in in a new environment and like build camaraderie and culture and also like respect, you know, where it's like, oh, who's the who's the sports guy coming over here in the building trying to tell us about how to grow a high growth tech company?

Yeah, I was very honest with Jason uh when we first started uh the conversation. And I said, "My background in tech is is not attractive to you. Just let me in it there." Right? But I said, "What I can do, what I have been able to do is is build a good team." And so I knew when you transition to a new opportunity, and I've taken this approach every time.

I go with sort of a listen, learn, then lead philosophy on my how I come in. And um, you know, I come in, I I took the entire organization, I broke them up into groups no greater than 12 and set aside 90 minutes. And I just sat and listened to, you know, I had a series of questions I wanted to think about before I came in. And I wanted to hear, you know, what's going really well, what's not going well, you know, what what do you feel like the culture is here? Are you motivated to stay? Have you been looking?

Just honest. Um, take all of that feedback, but you can't stop there, right? Everyone does the listening tour when they come in, but if you don't do anything with what you hear, then you instantly lose uh faith and credibility with the team. And it's not even like it has to be some grandiose thing. And honestly, it probably doesn't need to be, but you do your listening tour and someone's like, "Yeah, you know, they're like talking about what they're upset about." And it's like, "We have really shitty snacks."

And it's like, you know, 2 weeks later you got like a little Costco run and people are like, "Oh." And it's just like a little bit of momentum. And I think that um I've recently started listening to this new podcast. It's called Strong Towns. Have you heard of this? I have not.

It's it's super interesting and it's all about, you know, building strong towns and cities across America and like from infrastructure and the whole nine yards. And the the guy I literally just I've probably listened to like four episodes and I'm hooked. It's like it just like pump it straight into my veins. But like what he talks about is from like building communities, building companies, building whatever it is. A lot of people want to do this like grand research project and like fix all the problems and then it's a it's a $10 million fix to like you know take this massive transformational change and it's like what if you just went out and identified you know problems where people were struggling or people were having issues and you just like fixed it today like what it doesn't have to be a lifelong solution but like fix that today and then maybe next week go fix something else and fix some and you just start like building momentum And then people will come alongside you and realize, oh, it's that easy to make a change.

It's that easy to make people happier. It's that easy to like build build like this this momentum of people who want to make their workplace, who want to make their city, who want to make their town better. And I like it it's so simple, but like how often do we get caught of like how do I how do I take my company from 500,000 to 500 million? And it's like what about 500,000 to 600,000? like that seems like a pretty good start. You know, when you start like, you know, stacking momentum and then all of a sudden like it's like when when you have momentum and like everything the wind is in your sales like that's where magic really happens I feel like.

Yeah. And the momentum comes from buying, right? So the listen, learn, lead. So you do the listening, you take from that everything that you've learned and then the first thing you have to do is share back, hey, this is what I heard from all of you, right? These are challenges, opportunities, these are things you'd like us to focus on to get more And then the the last part is the lead. And once you to your point like once you say I'm going to fix X Y and Z or we're going to invest in X Y and Z and they see that's a result of the thing that they told you 90 month or 90 days ago.

Uh you start to get the buy in. People believe that change is happening and possible. And you don't have to you're absolutely right. You do not have to boil the ocean. You do not have to have your strategic game plan for the next 5 years planned out every day at 8 a. m.

I'm going to do X Y and Z. what you have to do is tactically knock out the lowhanging stuff while finding time to think about that longer term strategic stuff. One thing I feel like that's really interesting about your career is you've truthfully left a lot of places. You've left these places better than when you got there, but you've also known like when to move on. And I'm sure we have listeners out there that are like maybe going through a career evaluation or just like a life evaluation like you know you've had a lot of different experiences from sports to public office to the private sector to high growth tech company you know like that's a really cool bingo card to have all those different things like talk to people about your version of introspection and knowing hey it might be time for me to do something different and identifying what the right gamble or what the right bet to uh to to place a bet on is.

Yeah, I think if you're asking yourself that question, it's probably time to be honest with you. Um but you know, if you're not sort of consumed by what you're doing and highly motivated and focused on whatever it is, um it it's probably time to start thinking about what is that next phase and chapter for me. If I'm not intrinsically motivated on a day-to-day basis, now we all have bad days, don't get me wrong, right? We all go through tough pastures at work. But if you find yourself frequently drifting into the do I want to do something else, the answer is yes. You just don't have the answer to what that is yet.

Right. Um and I think um a lot of people get paralyzed by fear or they overthink things. Um if you have been successful where you're at um and you work hard and you have a good ethic, like don't be scared to walk through that door even though it's foreign to you. Um and just be honest with yourself like I was with Jason. like I'm not going to add value to you as a technologist, right? That's not my background, not what I've came through.

Where I can add value is I can help build a good team, strong culture, and get us focused uh in in the right areas. Um you have to have a little courage. Um you have to have a very supporting wife [laughter] who will tolerate your career meandering. Career meandering. That's what he Yeah, [laughter] I love that. I think that's I think that's amazing to like Yeah.

Yeah. To just be able to like get curious about different things and pursue and know like what gets you fired up at different stages and then go and execute that and make it happen. I think that's so cool. Yeah. I've I've heard you talk a lot about the value of curiosity. It's actually one of our core values at at our at our company and I 100% agree.

Like there's just something about sort of a lifelong learning, the motivation to understand things more deeply. Um to have, you know, for me obviously a bunch of different careers. I just enjoy learning new things. I I enjoy new challenges. Um I'm motivated by achievement. I'm motivated by rigor.

I'm motivated by solving things that seem difficult to solve. And like being able to take previous experiences from the government side, from, you know, the public service side and bring that into the private sector, but also like you have a whole new like skill set you can go out and learn, you know, like that's cool. Like learning new things is cool. and drawing connections like across these indust like I don't know I think that that's super cool um I'm always fascinated to talk with people who love learning not like maybe like sitting down and getting your MBA or whatever that might be but like just being curious about the world is so is so fascinating I do want to know okay we are in the age of AI we are like every third thing people are talking with tech and whatever might be coming like what's on the docket for 2026 and beyond for you guys at EXOS yeah I know we're heavily invested in becoming experts in AI.

Um it's without a doubt um going to heavily impact our industry. I like to tell our team we're a fast growing company and the fastest growing industry at the fastest rate of change in human history, right? So there's a there's a whole lot that we need to be focused on. [laughter] It's like yeah like like it's like fast to the like fourth power there, right? Like holy smokes. Yeah.

AI is it's incredible and it's um it's changed the way even we operate internally in just a matter of months. I mean, the the progress it makes from, you know, January to today is is remarkable what it would look like in I mean, to the point that the government is like, "Hey, this one's too crazy." Like, we can't we can't have this version of Claude open to the public. Like, we got to tone that back a little bit. Like, that's nuts. Yeah.

No, it's great. And I think, you know, there's going to be a lot of really great things about AI. There's going to be a lot of scary uh difficult things we're going to have to navigate, but the core of what we're doing is really giving like quality of life and focus. um where where employees wanted to be and where our clients want to be. Like no one wants to spend time doing sort of mundane, repetitive um resetting passwords on computers and things of that nature. Like to the extent that we can automate that workflow and have our humans with AI alongside them tackling more complicated problems or problems that involve the intersections of people and technology where there will always be issues, right?

Um that that's really interesting and fun to us and there's a great opportunity. you know, half of our clients um on the IT and cyber side are public. So, they're cities, towns, small utilities, uh all of them facing real financial crunch right now. Um and so what what can we do to deliver efficiencies to help um make those cities safer from a cyber security standpoint to make um them more economical to operate from a cash flow standpoint? Um how do you make your tax dollar go further, right? like and I I think another way that it's going to be helpful from the AI integrated into municipalities is how do you make more informed local community members, local citizens, you know, like they all have questions.

They're all pro. I mean, again, you talk about being that like 7:00 in the morning or 5:00 in the morning, you're getting a pothole call. Like that should be something that that people feel informed about how to make change in their community and how they know what's going on. Um, and I definitely think a being a getting AI integrated in there could definitely help with that. Community outreach is a uh always ongoing problem and issue. Like you can't overcommunicate um when you're in the public sector.

Um but even if you're doing it 24/7, you're still going to miss populations, right? They're just they're not where you're speaking, right? So finding ways to solve problems before they even become problems is is probably the best way to do that. So you know that's we got to solve problems before they're problems. That's that's what we got to do. I love it, man.

Well, uh, we've come to the end of the show where we get to talk all things Indiana. So, this question is brought to you by our friends at JC Hart. They're a leader in creating enjoyable living experiences at apartment communities all across Indiana and beyond. Check them out at homejart. com. My question for you, why do you call Indiana home?

Definitely the people and the opportunities. You know, I have uh friends and family that live, you know, in Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, whatever. And it's really interesting what I've observed in those communities is you really kind of have to be from a family or gone to a high school or belong to this club to sort of integrate and and and make a difference here. You know, I'm the first person in my family to go to college. I did not have any connection to politics. Um and I've been able to everyone takes a meeting.

Like when I ask for a meeting, I get a meeting. everyone wants to and not just now like I once you get to a level I think people think oh yeah you get to a level and then people start taking the meetings and I was like no but when you first got here if you reach out and like you know nine out of 10 hit rate like 90% people will give you at least 15 minutes more than likely an hourong coffee chat and they'll buy the coffee for you as a 21-year-old like for sure that happened to me countless times yeah if you're if you're motivated and do the outreach people want to be helpful and I I mean I the people of Indiana are just amazing. I' I've been on this sort of social media rabbit hole where I've been watching all these Europeans over here for the World Cup, like driving through the heartland talking about how amazing the people are, how kind they are, how what great communities we all live in, and it's it's uh it's prideful, you know.

Did didn't you see the uh the Brazilians touring NYC as the Knicks were celebrating their championship? They were here for like a World Cup game and they're like like people are like jumping on top of uh jumping on top of taxis in the whole nine yards and this like Brazilian family is getting a tour down New York City and I'm like it's not always like that. I promise like rough timing. Yeah. But it's like Yeah. So people that is like constant day in day out like that's the difference here.

If you are motivated by impact and you're motivated by people like that's what you enjoy like this is the spot. Okay. We got a couple rapid fire questions for you. favorite major sporting event that India has hosted. I wasn't even a part of it, but I I love the Indy500 with all of my bones. Okay.

Yeah. Wow. See, I love that it's not even like one that we had to recruit to come in here. It's like you're saying the homegrown, the Indy500 is the sporting event. Yeah. I just think it's, you know, on Memorial Day, the celebration, the remembrance, the spectacle, the uh, you know, it's it's all just and I grew up, you know, 2 milesi from the track.

I'm a huge race fan. So, it's it's it's my it's my Super Bowl every year. The pride of the West Side. [laughter] Most underrated neighborhood in Indianapolis. Cottage home, maybe. Where's that at?

Like downtown Indianapolis, like near north side or I don't near but it's it's historic. That is an underrated one. I'm like, yeah, kind of by Chattam March. Yeah. Oh, it's right by Arsenal Tech. Yeah, there's some really cool historic houses over there.

Oh, Dorman Street. Yeah. Yeah. It's a It's I would say an emerging I call it emerging area. It's both historic and reemerging is probably the best way to say it. It's right by Poges Run, which I've always wanted to to do.

Like the little river underneath the city. Oh, yeah. I've always wanted to do that. I saw someone post about it the other day and I was sad it wasn't me. Um, amazing. Okay, final three questions.

These are all about the state of Indiana. This is your opportunity to shed some light on a part of the state that more people need to be talking about. What is a hidden gem in Indiana? I don't hear enough people talk about who's your national forest um down in Bloomington. Uh it is absolutely gorgeous. It's huge.

The terrain in southern Indiana is, you know, much more friendly to hikes and things of that nature. It's just gorgeous. I've spent a lot of time down there overnight camps. You feel like you're walking through four or five different ecosystems and national forest is awesome. And there's just so much to discover in I mean, there's so much to discover everywhere. Uh but like if you're an outdoorsy person, like don't take the flight to Colorado.

spend that money and go do like a weekl long tour of southern Indiana and I do not think you'll be uh disappointed. The dunes is another one in northern Indiana. People overlook that that there is a beach. There's an awesome beach in Indiana. People drive by to go to like the that one shore of Michigan and you're like there is really good beach right there at the top of of northern Indiana. Okay, next.

This is where we source new guest ideas and uh hear about other people across Indiana that are doing great things. Who's a Hooser we need to keep on our radar? someone who's doing big things. You know, I have been super impressed over the last year with Claire Fidian Green, who she runs the Fairbanks Foundation. Oh, she has really taken the bull by the horns on developing this uh apprenticeship program for high school kids who can either dual track to college or um develop their own careers. It's uh really modeled after uh Switzerland's version.

She spent time over there. I've spent some time over there with her, but she and David Becker uh president for Indian bank have uh really developed an incredible program that I think when we look back 20 years from now, we're going to say this was really transformative for the kids in Indiana. Um cuz I've seen the results of it over in Zurich and in other places. And um it's exciting for for younger people who may not be right off the bat college um ready or college path but want to develop careers and in all kinds of careers. We've got um apprentichip program sponsoring in technology in banking in marketing. Um it's really fascinating what she's done.

I think people think that uh the apprentice model is for trades only and it's like it's works for trades but like yeah they talked about banking, finance, marketing, tech like think of some of like the greatest software engineers. It's like they didn't learn that in a classroom like a lot of like or like there's OG hackers that like put it all together and like you learned by doing it. It's like learning on the job. Like some people just aren't aren't built for the classroom. Like that's just not where they learn best. That's not how they thrive or become successful.

And I felt like there for, you know, maybe 15 or 20 years, it felt like the only way you'll ever be successful is if you go to college and people end up with degrees and stuff that they're they don't care about with, you know, college loan debt that they're never going to be able to pay off or it's going to take them forever. And it's like, well, what if you would have just taken this path of starting to learn and work and get something that that you were interested by what while you were in high school? The other program, so one, I love that and it's through the Fairbanks Foundation. Yeah, she runs it. It's they've spun up something kind of parallel to it called incap. But yeah, I love that.

The other school that's doing that really well is Providence Crystal Ray. Yes. Where they do one day uh for high school kids like in in office jobs like you get to and a lot of that you know the this is I believe the school is on the near west side and it's getting people getting young kids exposed to different career paths that they might not have seen before and it's super cool. Like we're here like you know in Broadripple like 811 has kids from Providence Christ array and like a ton of people that I really look up to get interns and I believe they're paid don't quote me on that but I think they are um from Providence Chris Ray that come to their office to work uh once a week. So four days in classroom one day you know in an office and like that's so cool. Yeah.

And it's it's hard uh from a private company standpoint to integrate apprentices or interns especially when they're young in your career. What really I think makes Claire's work uh and David's exceptional is they've built the infrastructure to support that which makes it much easier for companies to plug in. Oh, you know, that's nice. And and and it creates just incredible opportunities for these kids. So, I'm I'm really excited about what that's going to look like 5 10 years down the road. Isn't it crazy to think about like Yeah.

a lot of the work that's being done, you know, again, you talk about like the uh the guiding fathers of Indianapolis on the sports side, it was like the work that they did 50 years ago or whatever it was is like now come to fruition. And it's like what's going on today that in 2075 we're going to look back on and be like, "Oh, thank goodness they started that apprenticeship program." Like, right, that has making a huge impact here in the state of Indiana. Ryan, man, thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing your uh what do you your uh you you had a great term was it meddling career or something like that meandering meandering career your your [laughter] meandering career from deputy prosecutor uh from your time at sports gore from your time with in the mayor's office like I just think it's really cool to see leaders cuz I mean we we didn't even talk about it I want to do shout out like you were named the IBJ's uh what 250 list in technology and media meaning you are one of the most 250 influential people in the state of Indiana.

Like one, kudos to that. But it's cool to like I think in a world where you know think about sports, you think about people you're forced to be like a specialist. Like okay, you want to make it to the NFL, quit every sport when you're 5 years old and only ever play football. And it's like being able to go and, you know, be a deputy prosecutor and then, you know, get into politics because you want to give back and then get into the sports corps and then get into private sector, like that's cool to chase curiosity and you can still be successful. And I think you are a testament to that. So, I appreciate that.

If people want to connect with you, if they want to learn more about Exos, if they want to get connected, how can they do that? Yeah, they can visit our website, weexos. com. Um, and always reach out to me. I'm just Brian vonxos. com.

Heck yeah, man. Well, thank you for stopping by. Thank you for all you're doing and we'll talk to you soon. Awesome. Thanks for having me. This show is made possible by our friends up at Sweetwater.

Whether you're looking to start a podcast or take your content to the next level, click the link in the description to see all my gear recommendations at [music] Sweetwater. If you want a behind-the-scenes look at everything we're doing across the state, make sure you follow me on Instagram and Tik Tok, Nate Spangle. Thank you so much for listening and being a part of what makes the Hooer State great. We'll see you next time here on Get