How Sullivan Hardware and Garden Competes with Amazon and Home Depot

I just come to your store 'cause I'm feeling bad. That's when you know you've reached that point where you've become kind of part of their life. People from around the country have traveled to your 71st and Keystone store. That's crazy. Four or five categories. You said, I'm gonna dominate in those categories.

I'm gonna try things. They don't work. I'll do other things really quickly. How the heck do I get people out of the pajamas? So what was the first. Wild, crazy idea that you pitched of like, let's do this thing to get people into the store. From South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between. This is Get IN, the show focused on the Hoosier State and the incredible stories happening here today.

I'm Nate Spangle, founder of Get Indiana, and I will be your host for today's conversation. getindiana.com is your one stop shop for everything Indiana, from festival and event guides, to blog posts covering hidden gems, local businesses, small towns, and more. Check it out and learn something new about the Hoosier State at getindiana.com.

And don't forget to subscribe to our weekly newsletter right there at the top. My guest today is Pat Sullivan, the owner of Sullivan Hardware and Garden, one of Indiana's most iconic family owned businesses. And this was founded by Pat's father back in 1954. He took over in 1990 at just 29 years old, I believe, correct, and transformed the business into a thriving destination.

Multiple de destinations. That's right. Known for blending retail, entertainment and community experiences. He also has hosted for the last 32 years, the Home and Garden Show on WIBC 93.1 FM. He's also created the beloved Sullivan Express holiday train experience. Pat has become a household name in central Indiana for his creativity, his humor, and dedication to the local community.

I'm really excited to unpack this episode. I'm also joined with special guest host Dan Haner and founder of Neighbor Serve my upstairs neighbor. Sure. Yeah. And they're serving our community here as well. There's an interesting overlap of, uh, how Sullivan's has played, uh, essential parts in Dan's businesses as he's helped grow them over the years.

All right. After my monologue, I'm done. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Woo. Yeah. Good to be here. Today's story, the starts on the north side of Indianapolis, but it starts back in 1954 when your father Robert Sullivan, after his service in World War II. Yes. In the Korean War. In the Korean War. Yeah. He starts what is today?

Uh, Sullivan's. We call it Sullivan. Yeah, I, you know what, it's oddly we're thinking about changing the name to Sullivan. Just Sullivan. Yeah. Just like, I think, think Kroger should put an s on the end of their name as well, Kroger's. But we actually started on East Washington Street. Oh. So 1954, uh, downtown Indianapolis.

Uh, my dad went to Holy Cross, had an opportunity. Uh, to move around the corner, just like, what is that, a hundred blocks or so? Right. So, and uh, when we moved to 71st and Keystone, uh, my uncle was actually helping. They were building, the Knights of Columbus was there. Mm-hmm. And they had uh, com they owned all the commercial lots out there.

And so that's where we rented. Just a real small at the time. That had, at the time, nothing up there, right? No. As matter of fact, it was the end of the world. Keystone. Dead ended what? At, uh, where? 86th Street. Oh my. Wait, where the river just dead Keystone did not go through to went to River Road. Yeah, because No, there's no way.

Wow. That's crazy. Wow. So I get that, that overpass up at Wow. Was not there. Think about just coming over the river. There was no bridge over the White River. Wow. Okay. So you guys started downtown. How many years in did you guys move up to? Uh, nine years. We moved up in 63. Okay, that's good to know. So that whole area.

Yeah, the Knight North Side Social over there. Come on. Uh, that's right. And now Ksr is in the neighborhood too. We have, oh man. There's a great little area. 71st Keystone is, uh, pocket of heaven blossoming with restaurants. Yeah, it's crazy. There's five restaurants on the corner, I think. Well, and Okay. Have you been to the spot, uh, what is the, is it Taiwanese food or something?

That is the one, yes. I don't know the name of it. And I would've recommended a name that. Next door to the Rook. Yeah. Do you know the name of it? Someone told me that. It is phenomenal. I can't remember what kind of food it is and I need to go in there, but they said this place. I do too. I do. Insura is right on the corner there too.

Yeah, right. Also phenomenal. Oh, that would be number six then. Yeah. Uh, okay. We could talk about 71st and Keystone all day long. Yeah. But that's where you guys started. How many square feet was that store on the, up at 71st in Keystone when started 2000, 2000 square feet. And this was a hardware store? Yes.

I've grown up my entire life in like the lows sort of era. Yeah. And like I grew up in a small town where we did, we used to have like an Ace Hardware store. Feel like that was if you needed something quickly, but if you were doing a big project, I feel like, uh, Lowe's has kind of been in this timeframe.

Yeah. But back in 19, this would've been the sixties. So 63 we opened there. It was all, you know, small hardware stores, Headlands at 62nd, and Keystone Sullivan's at 71st. And then in the, uh, seventies regional chain came in called Central Hardware. Mm. Terrifying. They located just north of us. Where in the, in the area where Walmart is now?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So right there they were 60,000 square foot. They felt bad. I mean, they even came in to my dad and said, Hey, is there anything we can do for you? 'cause they were pretty sure we were garners. No way. Yeah. How it lasted. Wait, this chain of central, they're like big central hardware. They're based outta St.

Louis compared to now, like the Home Depot, they were tiny, but 35 stores, 60,000 square feet. Yeah, they were, but they were such a draw that they would draw so many people to the corner. As my father always said, he goes, well, you know, we could just live on what they're out. Just take the scraps. We could live on what?

We take the scraps. Wow. And so they went bankrupt in, uh, it's been in the eighties or early nineties. Did your dad walk in there and say, Hey, is there anything I can do for you? Yeah. But he loved telling that story. Yeah. Okay. So they come in and they're like, they're worried that, and they were sincere.

Yeah. I mean, they were sincere that. You know, they knew they were gonna really hurt a small business. Like, uh, you get into the business in when you're 29, right around there. Right? Oh, that's when I bought the business I've been in. Okay. So did you work through their, like all, oh, when I was in third grade at St.

Pius, I would walk, I worked on Tuesdays and Saturdays. Do you remember when they opened up their store? Like what was the vibe of your, like this is your family's business and the big guy opens up just like two blocks north of you. Yeah. You guys worried? You know what, as a kid? Uh, no. I don't think we felt it and my parents really didn't show.

But they had to be worried. Right? They had to be, but, and I don't ever remember them saying that there was any downturn in sales at all. I think it really was, they brought so many people because they were. They were the only, and they had four locations around Indianapolis. Mm-hmm. So there was four central hardwares, but they brought so many people that it just was kind of a natural thing that kind of helped us out.

Wow. Okay. So you outlast them. Yeah. And somewhere in the journey Now it's like, I feel like you guys have that whole block where it's just like a bunch of different individual things, like all put together, but it's like you can get a beer and you can get dinner and you can get flowers and there's just so much stuff going on.

Take us through the progression of how your 2000 foot hardware store that your dad started Right. Turns into the, I mean, even at Christmas, the Winter Wonderland that is Sullivan's in 81, we moved to the, uh, so that would be the southeast corner in 81 where we are now. Okay. Yes. So we were over where Northside Glass is, which was on the, on the Northwest corner.

Mm-hmm. Oh. And that property, our landlord was. The Knights of Columbus the Got you. Okay. Which is now the, uh, north side social. North Side social, yeah. So that's where we paid the rent Uhhuh. Three, 300 bucks a month. 300 bucks a month. That's where you guys started? Yep. And then you moved down to the southeast corner, which is where you are now.

Right. And there was an old, uh, there was a grocery store there, uh, back in the, in the sixties and, uh, actually, um, crazy stuff. 'cause you always see the, the, um, violence. But a deputy sheriff was actually killed there during a shootout in 1970 in, uh, July. And they said, you know what? That looks like real estate that we want.

Let's go. Oh, that's crazy. So we, uh, my parents bought that building in 81 K 82 something somewhere right in there. And so we moved in there and then we added onto that building. I bought it in 89. And then, uh, you know, we were getting pressure from Lowe's. I mean, quite honestly, I mean the Lowe's had, uh, opened by our, we, we had a store over on East 71st Street.

Uh, 71st and Graham and Lowe's opened at 80th and Shadeland. And then the big one they opened up in Glendale. Right. No one saw that one coming. And at that point we had a store at 49th and Penn. We had 71st and Keystone. So we were, you know, we had Lowe's kind of crawling all over the, you know, all over us.

Yeah. And what did you guys notice from like a business perspective when like a low, a big box comes in there to the, like, to affect your business? And how have you been able to adapt and change and, and like find the place for, for Sullivans? So what happens is you tend to, it's the small store you tend to, to get people's problems, the little problems rather than.

Before people would come in with a little problem, the little nut and bolt they needed, but they would also pick up light bulbs and maybe a, a can of paint, stuff like that. Well, Lowe's takes a lot of that business. So then you're left, as I always say, with the problems and what you can't live with just that business because Sure.

You can't live off of nuts and bolts. It just doesn't work. So you, you try to, for what? And we were always kind of strong in, uh, the lawn and garden department, so where a lot of, uh, my friends that are in, in the hardware business, they, they love like power tools, which is like literally the worst business you could be in.

The margins are tiny. I mean like 15% margin. The theft is high. Mm-hmm. Oh, everybody wants to steal power tool. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And it's like, and they have this infatuation with, I don't even know if we carry power tool squad on. I don't. Maybe a convenience, but it's just like, so what we tried to do in, uh, 2000, you know, I, I started kind of seeing our business going to, you know, we, we, we had a really good lawn and garden business, and that's kind of what was driving our business.

And then we'd have some sympathy business, sympathy business always kind of went like, we always bought our hardware from your mommy and your daddy. Yeah, sure. And it's like, which is great. We ring up the sympathy business just like any, anything else. But at the end of the day, it's like, I wanted people to be excited to come to our store.

I wasn't, because if I was still just a hardware store, I would be retired right now. Sure. Because it just, I've been in it all my life and it's like, you know, I see the progression of retired guys that, that come in and they start, you know, they don't have anything to do. They start wandering out, being bugged about.

You know, they'll bring in like a little, like a door latch, like a, with a little rollers that look like that's a flat spot on there. I don't know. It ke it pops open every once in a while. Not all the time, but every once in a while that thing pops open. I don't know why. It's like, well, why don't you spend a dollar and put a new one on it?

So, but so, but I, what I wanted was that excitement. Yeah. So, so what I did, uh, in the early two thousands, I picked five things I wanted to be the best at. So we were gonna be just a good basic hardware store. We were gonna be a leader in lawn and garden and plants. We were gonna be a leader in mid, mid price patio furniture.

We were gonna be a leader in, um, artificial Christmas trees. We're gonna be a leader in, uh, grills, which we already had a a foot. You got the new foothold in the got grill Palace now got the grill Palace now, and then fireplaces. Okay. For those where you're gonna be the leader in those five things, how did you decide, like did you hire some consultant right, to take you through this exercise?

How did you land on those five and how did you Yeah. Someone tells me no. Did, how did you even like pick the, like we, we are not gonna win at all. The other like, we need to narrow our scope to five. I just knew we couldn't be everything. We can't, I mean, you know, a box store will put out, you know, 80 foot of faucets.

Well how am I gonna compete with that? You know? So I just wanted, you know, I'm a good basic hardware store, a really good hardware store, but you're not gonna come to us for power tools or you know, shutters, that kind of stuff. So I wanted to be the best in five things. So how did you attack that list? You started, uh, five things were gonna be the best at You already had a good foothold in lawn and garden.

Yep. And, and we, we in hardware and we did well in, uh, well that's not one of the five 'cause that's just the good basic hardware store. That's Foundation Leader in five. Got it. Leader in five. Yeah. So failed at fireplaces. It just didn't, it turns out that people don't need that many fireplaces. Yeah. And I feel like fireplaces you, I don't know.

Like they probably changed too. Like they do fireplaces in the two thousands. You had wood, like you burnt stuff. Yeah. Like I don't know anyone who burns wood anymore. I know. And we had, but we had all these gas logs. We had this beautiful display. We had nine working displays of gas logs. You know what happens when you turn on nine fireplaces?

A little toasty. It get so hot. Your boys were cutting weight by the fireplaces, getting ready, rest. So hot. And I remember when a guy came up to me, I'm dead serious, he was an adult. He goes, Hey, I just burnt my hand on that fireplace. 'cause he touched the metal on the outside. You grow up. And I'm like, dude, it's fire.

It's hot. It's like. Like it's fire. Are you allowed to say like, no shit to your customer? They were like, come on. So we put a sign on that said caution. And then I realized like, maybe fire. So we got, and the reason that's important is that you know what, everything you do doesn't work. That's right. So you keep swinging at it.

It's like, so fireplaces went out very successful with the, the other four. And then we happened to, we, we were so successful from day one of that store at Keystone. We had this, I had, because I was building this thing, it's like, I'm thinking if this thing doesn't go, I could be in real trouble. So we had the old farmhouse that, uh, my father had pa uh, we had kind of been just been buying the property on that side of the street.

And so the old farmhouse we had the, that old farmhouse that. Was the old farmhouse Sure. From that whole area. And so I left that. I thought if we get in trouble and aren't making our numbers, you know, I'll fix it up and put in a, you know, it could be a doctor's office or a mm-hmm. Dentist or something like that, you know, and get a little, because it was, it was zoned for that kind of thing.

But it, it took off so much that, you know, right away it's like, man, we're gonna expand. And we went a little deeper. And then we're fixing up that old farmhouse because we built a porch on it because we wanted it for patio furniture. Patio furniture was on fire. And then this lady that walked in the store, she goes, Hey, whatcha gonna do with the inside of the yellow house?

That's the yellow house today, the yellow house. And I said, well, um, I don't know. We're building porch for patio furniture. She goes, have you ever thought about a gift shop? I said. Yeah. No, but I guess that's cool. No, but I guess that's cool. So that is now over a $2 million department just in the yellow house.

Yeah. And the gift and stuff that they put, you know, that's, that includes all the like Christmas ornaments and stuff like that. Sure. So, yeah, Mary Lou, she was, uh, she had experience from uh, country. There used to be a, uh, Nate, you're too young, but, uh, country friends up at 82nd and Dean and she kind of ran that and then once they went outta business and came to work for us, wow.

That was a godsend right there. So, so as a small, like, small business, it's just, I, I think for Nate and I, something we care deeply about in helping entrepreneurs get started. So I think there's a lot of people that might be listening. Just wondering. So you, so you, you basically took four or five categories.

You said, I'm gonna dominate in those categories. Yes. I'm gonna try things. If they don't work, I'll do other things really quickly. But then you also have, uh, you say it all the time, like, how the heck do I get people out of their pajamas? Right. So that was, that was kind of the, that was kind of the next wave of the story is that.

So I was very successful at those. But then all of a sudden, here comes the internet. And I remember at first when we thought, you can't, there's no, you can't be able, you're gonna buy stuff off the internet and they're gonna start shipping it. It just did not, in everyone's mind, it's like, that does, that is not gonna be a profitable business.

And sure enough, I was wrong again. And so then it became, because so much, so many people were doing everything shopping online, it became, well then how do we get people out of their pajamas? That was always like, what? What We asked like, well, how can we get 'em to come in our store? So how do we create an experience?

And that's kind of was uncharted because some of the other stuff I could copy from big garden centers around mm-hmm. The Midwest. You know, and some of the stuff that they were doing that was really cool. But when it came to the entertainment side, you're a hardware guy. Yes. You're running a hardware store and at some point along this journey you get approached to start or do a radio show.

Like how does that work? We bought some advertising from WIBC radio 'cause they were kind of the kingpin of, of uh, AM. No, yeah, AM at the time. It had just been, uh, bought by Jeff Smulyan. And so he brought back a program director. Not that he, I guess he was a, a, a step above, his name was Tom Severino and he was running a sim similar, he was from Indy but was running a similar station, uh, in Cincinnati.

And he had a guy named Gary Sullivan that was very successful. Is there another Sullivan around here we could hire? Yeah. And so, you know, so I went, it was the first job I ever applied for. They made you apply for this job? Yes. I had to apply for the job and it just said, owners selling als. Well, I was, that meant nothing.

I mean, I, you know, we were just a, then it was, you know, we were, that was, we were just a small store on Keystone. Like, why would you want to do that? Well, I didn't, 'cause I told 'em no. Okay. At, so you got, you applied, got the job and said, no, no, I, I told 'em no. They said, Hey, would you, would you apply, you know, we were trying to get somebody to do this kind of show, a home improvement show, so we'd like you to apply.

And I said, uh, I wish I could, but Saturday's my busy day, I can't be away from the store. And then they called back, they said, well, we really just, is it the, is it the local guy or is it Jeff? Uh, no. Local, local guy. Local, local guys hitting you up saying Come and host this show for us. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, what?

Finally, what makes you give in? Uh, they said, Hey, why don't you just come in and talk to us? And at, and then actually at the time to see what the show was like I, I did drive over and spent a day with Gary Sullivan at w uh, good guy. KRC. Yeah. Great guy. Still on the air actually. No way. Holy. So he, if you've been going for 32 years, so he was gone, gone.

Second line. He was nine years in. Oh my gosh. So he's, uh, 40 some years, 40 something years. Shout out to Gary Sullivan. Yeah. Our Cincinnati listener base is not very high's, not high. Uh, okay. So you have, you go down there, you see you spend the day with Gary Sullivan. Yep. And just to see what he's doing, it's just like, well, you're just ans they're pretty much doing what I do every day.

Right, right. Just answering people's questions instead of one, one person's questions. You're speaking to thousands. Right. And did you see this as like an opportunity to get almost free advertising for the store? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So you're like, I mean, I got paid, I still get paid. It's like I start, you know, it was like Nate, he's the first influencer.

Wow. So this is literally like modern influencing. Yeah. Like you were, you know, you were like a home improvement influencer 32 years ago. Talking about like, okay. 'cause I mean, every day, you know, grandma comes in, has like a problem with her home, or like Yeah. Wants to put in new shrubbery outside. And you gotta remember it's 1993, I think.

There's no internet. Think about that. You're, you grew up with like, that internet was always there. If you want to ask a question, there was, you know, there was columns in the newspaper and there was, you know, we were the live, you know, home, home show that it'll be so hard because like, like let's say you answer something once, there isn't like a body of work to be like, just go look here.

Like, I answered that already. It's like, you just have to know. I you have to answer the same question, like, oh yeah. Every like three weeks. Yeah. Ask me about a mole. Yeah. Right. Matter of fact, if, if the, uh, the, the little secret in talk radio, you know. At the time when I first started, I was by my, by myself.

It was just me. And if things were a little slow on the, on the lines, I would mention moles and daylight saving time and get everybody all fired up. Just get people fired up, baby, because everybody knows how to kill a mole and everybody's got a, a opinion on daylight saving time. That's awesome. Okay, so you are, you end up taking the radio show and they just, they put you on air in this home and garden show and say like, alright, congrats.

Like, start being entertaining, answer the phones. Talk about what was your timeframe like? What was the it? Was it a weekly show? Yeah, weekly. Every Saturday. So our office two hours. You're leaving your store during one of the busiest days of the week. Yeah. To go be on the radio and answer questions for people.

Uh, and like, does it, does your show pick up steam? Do people get excited about it? Yeah, it does. I mean, it does. We started getting advertising. 'cause when I first started, WIBC was a little bit rundown at that point, and that's why Smulyan was coming in and then rebuilding. Rebuilding the. You know, to the greatness that WIBC had always been.

I mean, yeah, you know. So, uh, but yeah, so I mean, it was pretty much me and, uh, John Denver PSAs public service announcement. John Denver was always pushing something, but at, at the end of the day, it's another small business. Right. Do you remember this? I, I remember it, yeah. Do you like, like did you talk about growing up here on like this side of India?

What was Sullivan's to you as you were growing up? Half my friends worked there. It was just where my friends that, that may not be, uh, work eligible at that point in life where they'd get a job before they were eligible. Yeah. They'd never used us a reference. And, and yeah, I just, I just remember, you know, it was just part of, I, I grew up in the north side Catholic world and it was just like a hub of Yeah.

It's trying to become sort of a hub of that world. I, I think it's incredible and it's a staple today. Like it, that whole, in that block, you just kept going and going and going. Yeah. You have all the stuff. I think that it, the, the business beside of it and like the business mind it takes to turn what was a cost center.

Advertising into something you're getting paid to do, right? Yes. You have to give up two hours on Saturday, but now, like, you can almost plug your thing without having to say like, you know, it's not like you're salesy advertisement. Even like if I have a guest on, I always tell my guests, like, our listeners aren't stupid.

Talk about if your expertise is, you know, crawlspace repair, talk about crawlspace. You don't have to say, you know, you need to call the best in the business. Come buy my stuff. Yeah, I mean, just talk. And then people aren't stupid. They will, well, the, the thing that you were doing, I mean, you, I didn't even think about this, but yeah, you're leaving your store at the busiest time on a Saturday morning, but that's also when people are driving around doing other stuff.

Yeah. And then radio, turn on the radio, listen the bat, you know, so, you know, and, and I always do the same thing. It's like, Hey, you know, go buy the hardware store. Go buy Lowe's and pick that up. And then people will go, do you have it at your store? It's like, yes, I do. Yeah. And you almost like let them make the decision to come and support you all.

'cause they're getting the value from you. Like you're teaching them about killing a all or talking daylight savings time or entertaining them. Right. And because that, they're gonna go and support that with their dollar and they're gonna come into the store and, you know, oh, I just heard Pat was talking about, I don't know.

Right. Uh, crooked hinges or something. And we gotta come in here and fix our hinges. Yep. And were, were people in the store seeing that immediate impact as you started talking on the radio? Uh, yeah, I would say so. Like your employees as you're out in the community or as you're out on the radio? Yeah. Were people coming in and saying, oh, I just heard him talking about Yeah, this, that was the radio station on in the store.

Um, I think at the time, yeah. Now it's not. That's fair. I think my, uh, my wife who's in the gift shop, I think she listens, which amazes me. 'cause I would've thought. None of my kids listen to my show occasionally. Well now it's like on, 'cause it's every, like it's on YouTube and stuff now too. Yeah. Like I've, I've seen it there.

I watched uh, uh, some clips you put out there. So, okay, things are on, you get on the radio show. So now you have a job and are employing people growing the store. And you really take into perspective winning in those categories and the experience, how do I get people out of their pajamas and into the store?

Into the store. So what was the first wild, crazy idea that you pitched of like, let's do this thing to get people into the store? Uh, the first thing was, it actually, I was connected to the radio. And because after my show was a cooking show, one day around Thanksgiving, a couple weeks before Thanksgiving, uh, Linda Ali who did that cooking show said, Hey, I wanna go back home to Wisconsin.

Would you do the cooking show for me? I said, sure.

Absolutely. Well, I don't cook at all. So I was at a, uh, Bishop Chatard football game, go Trojans. And sitting behind me is this guy, and he's talking about cooking his Turkey in a trash can.

can And I turned back to

him and I said, you are coming with me.

And so we did a trash.

Now, WIBC was located at, uh, 9292 North Meridian, so there was grass, because it,

it, it burns up. Sure.

It burns a pretty good hole.

I did the, uh, the cooking show. We talked about the trash can Turkey, it's origin and all that stuff. Well, in 98 we moved downtown onto monument Circle where our studios are, and you can't really have a barbecue out, you know, so we moved it to the store.

And called it Turkey Fest. And that was our first big festival where everyone comes and, you know, we had, then we entered all the other grills into it and different ways that you can cook, uh, sides and turkeys and all that stuff. And to this day, that is one of our most popular Turkey Fest. Turkey Fest.

Did you have to like, get some approval? You're like, Hey, I'm gonna bring this guy that I met at a football game to cook last night? Last night to cook a Turkey in a trash can today. I mean, from the radio people? Yeah. Oh no. Oh, you're not a big, uh, ask permission guy, are you? No, I'm not. And you know what the, uh, I was in trouble with the zoning again just a couple weeks ago and you, you won't believe somebody called in because we are having Egg Fest, which is the celebration of the Big Green Egg, the barbecue, and we had one of those big blowups, a blow up of a Big Green Egg.

Yeah. Yeah. And so we had that up and somebody called in, I guess you're not allowed to have a blow up proof. Yeah. And I said, well, how long do I have to rectify this situation? 30 days? He, he said, 15 days. I said, well that's great. 'cause, so really I could have a hundred of 'em because, you know, and then somehow I got into, you know, it's like, Hey, if I didn't ask for forgiveness, we wouldn't have this store.

We just wouldn't. Yeah. And he took exception to that. So. Yeah. He's just a young guy. He is doing his job. Yeah. You know, it's not there like, and I'm sure they get this and it's like, okay, it's a big green, like they probably get so many crazy calls about stuff like that. Yeah. Who would call in about that?

Someone that there's, there's some other things they probably should call in about, but Yeah, called in about the, the balloon. Someone who clearly didn't like trashcan Turkey. Okay. Yeah. So you're growing the store, you're getting people off their couch. And so Turkey Fest is the first kind of activation Yes.

Where you get people out to the store. To learn about. And did you do it like, uh, the weekend before Thanksgiving, or when did you do it? Yes, we did it the weekend before Thanksgiving. Nice. And so how many people showed up to the first Turkey Fest? I don't know about the first one. We used to have 'em over at East 71st Street, but now we know about 2000 people come.

Wow. 2000 people come. And do you charge for Turkey Fest? No, that is one of the, uh, it's one of the, we have some free events and then a lot of events we charge for. Yeah. Okay. So, which is crazy. You're in the, like on the surface level, this is a hardware store, but like you start to pick these categories that you're gonna be excellent at and now you're hosting events, you end up, I mean, continuing down this food rabbit hole, like a lot of interesting things come from the food aspect, like Yeah.

All the different grills, the restaurant. Like, take us through the progression of finding what worked for you all to continue to, to differentiate yourselves from the normal Yeah. Everyday hardware store. So, so the kind of, the next big thing that came was. These EggFests and Egg Fest is not something I created Egg Fest.

They were having EggFests at different parts of the country. You know, they said, well, you know, you charge to get in. And that was such a foreign thing to me. It's like charge you wait, you want to charge a customer to go in so they can look at it and possibly buy a Big Green Egg. And so the first one I made, I'm, we decided, no, it's gonna be free.

And then it's almost like pre-qualifying people when, when you charge, we can do a better job because, you know, we're not having to, to foot the bill for everything. Right? And it elevates the event in the customer's mind because it's like, oh, it's $15. This must be something to see. And so as long as you don't, you know, mess with their trust, because now I feel like we, we have a trust among our customers and if we say something is worth $50, they'll go, Hey, if he says it's 50 bucks worth.

We're gone. Yeah. And you And so you'd never mess with that trust. Yes. Like if you're charging them $15, they're gonna get uh, more than $15 experience. Yes, absolutely. And you're right, like you don't get as many, uh, tire kickers. They just wanna like kind of see what it's like, stop through and maybe kick the tire.

It's like, no, I'm paying $15 'cause I'm like an interested buyer. Buyer, I'm interested in this. Yeah. Yes. And then you can get like, hey, if you give 15 minutes of answering all the FAQs and talking about what you have cooked on a Big Green Egg and all that stuff to somebody who's willing to pay 15. Like that makes sense.

Yeah. Okay. So you guys hosted an EggFest? Hosted an EggFest, and then that really started the ball going to, to different events, but then it got to be Turkey Fest. It's talking about Grills Egg Fest talking about, uh, the Big Green Egg. But then all of a sudden it, you know, the internet was really rolling.

You realize, you know, the entertainment. Uh, part of this doesn't really have to do with anything. Mm-hmm. You know, just entertaining people. So we started with, we had cooking classes. So when we built the store, we, we had a, um, we put in a kitchen. So we were having these cooking classes and then, you know, going to the Sullivan Express train.

We also used it for those two things, cooking classes and the Sullivan Express train. But what happened is the rest of the time it would be closed. So at Christmas it was open, so people would, and we had a, uh, we got a beer and wine permit. Yep. Which was an event in itself. And then people realize how fun it was at Christmas and like, you know, and then they would come back in the spring and it was closed.

So, on one hand, we're telling people how cool we are. And then we're disappointing them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that's when then we opened a full-time restaurant. There's not a playbook for this. Like, I don't know, was there another hardware store? Like I, I mean, were you going to conferences and like talking to people and them, like them being like, what are you doing?

No, you're, no. Like, how were you learning how to do all this? I was just flying by the seat of my pants. Yeah. Because there really isn't any, you know, and I've even, and the more interesting thing and more disappointing thing to me is that I don't get very many calls about what we're doing from my fellow retailers around the country.

Like how is, that's interesting in the transparency of it. How is hardware business across America? Depends. In small towns it's very good. Yeah. Okay. Uh, when, when they have the choice of a Lowe's, the business gets split. And again, like I said before, it's like, you know, a lot of times the hardware stores is left with.

The pain problem stuff, you know, the leaky and Lowe's gets the 10 gallons of paint. Mm-hmm. So, you know, that was kind of what that again, back to, that's why I picked the five things, but, but it's true. Indy, I mean, was down, we were down to like, in, uh, in the late eighties, early nineties, north of 38th Street in Indianapolis, there was 19 independent hardware stores.

And until recently, a few a stores have opened up. There was only four left. Wow. No way. From 19 to four. Yeah. Who were the four? Ta-da headland Sullivans? We, we were two. Two. Oh, you were two were 50% of them. Yeah. 'cause we had 49th and Penn and, and was the secret just your, uh, like, and, and obviously there's a full team and all of you guys doing this, but like having the.

I dunno, foresight to say, Hey, we're gonna focus on these four things and we're gonna make an experience that gets people off the couch. Yeah. I, I think that one thing that helped us is that we were deep into the lawn and garden and plant business because that is something I can do better than Lowe's can.

Mm-hmm. Without a doubt. Whenever you walk in, I'll outwork them and, and people just know more. Yeah. The people that work back there Yeah. Are just more helpful and know more. Yeah. So, so we had that, that was big and that was really carrying us. But, and then 49th and Penn in Meridian-Kessler, you know, we put that down there.

It was close to the governor's mansion. I thought I'd get some state business. Hmm. Nothing. Uh, but that neighborhood is so supportive of small business. That stretch right there has a ton of awesome local businesses. It is. Those people are so great to us. When did you open that? In 96. Okay. So this is probably right around Martha opening Cafe Patachou.

Yeah. Yeah. We had her as a guest and she talks about that neighborhood being great to her as well. Dude, that corner. And, and she opened, did she open first? I think she did. I think so. Maybe, I think she maybe a few years before. Because you said 96. It wasn't in the same, it was further down in the building.

Yes. 'cause Hamer's Hamer's, uh, drugstore was still open Yes. When we opened. Yes. And then she ended up taking over that space. Yes. But I'm telling you, it's like when we, when I, when we were building that store, which was an old gas station with another horrible tragedy, and I, I I never thought of that. I was buying these, uh, Kurt Callo was, was killed there by a, a former employee.

Uh, you've heard of Pete's Station, Pete Pete's a car repair place that had been on that corner for Yeah. And Pete Callow and, uh, his son Kurt was in and he let a guy in and, and was, was killed. Oh man. So, I mean, I hate to bring the show down. I heard that just pop in. Well, I mean, that's pretty wild that you both two places, right?

Yeah. Both of your surviving stores. Right. We're kind of marked by tragedy ahead of time. Yeah. That's a little interesting there. I'll just keep going back to small business thing 'cause you had a couple things and whether or not you knew you were doing it, it was really smart. You, you had stores, you realized you had to focus on a few things and dominate 'em 'cause you couldn't compete across all of 'em.

Absolutely. Then you got this incredible sort of marketing thing going on accident with the radio show. Yeah, the radio show really helped. And then, but the other thing I think that's key in it is the community aspect of it. I mean, your folks had been doing it for a long time. They were obviously, uh, great at building relationships and then all of a sudden, you know, your networks and your communities, even though they start really small and local people will support that.

Correct. Right. So I think that's a key part of it too, is just that, I mean everything that you do around the community as we look into all those, like you guys are a staple of this, this, because everybody else went outta business. Right. So why didn't that, right? Yeah. And just trying to like connect the, I never thought about that.

I just, I was just watching the count. It's like, why didn't I go out of business? Yeah, it's amazing. Like, were there moments where you were worried the hardware business was in the tank A little bit. We were doing really good with Christmas trees, with plants, all of that was great, but what went on on the inside of the store?

Yeah. Fertilizer, anything associated with the lawn and garden with, with plants doing great plumbing? Not so much. Not so much. Hmm. This is interesting, okay. Because that surface level, if you look at what you have today, you guys are doing a lot of different things from the restaurant to the events, to grills, to plants, to this.

But, and I think that's a, if you talk back to small business, uh, one is like the shiny car syndrome seems to be a problem with entrepreneurs. They're like, I wanna do this, I wanna do this, I wanna do this. Um, today you're, you have the fortune. You guys do a lot of stuff. Right, but it wasn't like you started on day one.

You take this thing over, over and let's do a million things. No. How would you talk about progressing and knowing when the right time is to add more distractions at first, kinda like your r and d, like, let's try new things versus master what you're really good at. Um, that's a good question. I guess we really, we haven't strayed too far.

Really, the biggest thing that happened was, you know, we, we failed at grills and then, you know, we, we were working on the yellow house and, and turned it in and that's when we really went, because really we had the best selection of artificial trees in the state, but we didn't have all of the ornaments and everything else that went along with that.

And that is what came with the gift department and the yellow house, which was not the yellow house originally. Oh, it was called because I thought, you know, you gotta be careful because it'll always have to be yellow. So it was called Wild Flowers. It was yellow, but it was called Wild Flowers. That was in case yellow.

Yellow fell out of favor. Sure. That it could be something else. And so, and this is where Guy, our customers called it the Yellow House. So we've finally changed the name to the Yellow House. So it kind of tells you like your customers sometimes will Right. Will tell you, show you the way. Yeah. You just follow along with them a little bit.

So, but then that's really the elevation of the gift added just a whole nother dimension of that entertainment because people love coming around. And who would've thought the talk radio guy was good at listening? Right. There you go. Yeah. Listen to what your customers have to say. Yeah. Okay. So things keep growing along.

You're creating this experience and while around you, you know, like, I mean, how, when were you, were you guys always part of Do it Best? Uh, since 69. Oh, wow. Okay. So, and like, explain to the listeners how that works. Like what Do it Best looks like? Uh, yeah. Being like you're a node on like this larger network.

Yeah. It's a, uh, member owned co-op. So the, you buy, you know, your, you get, you acquire stock in the company. Uh, started in, uh, the forties and now we serve all 50 states in like 30 foreign countries. So, and it's, uh, we just recently have purchased True Value. Oh, so the True Value and Do it Best will be eventually rolled all into one.

How does that work as a co-op? What does that mean? Because I kind of thought it was a franchise or something like that. No. So what's the difference? What does a co-op look like? A co-op, uh, looks like, you know, you're there. They, they provide a lot of services, a lot of support, whether that's advertising, store planning, all of those kinds of things.

But it also provides, you have the buying power of an $8 billion, a $6 billion company. Right? Mm. So, and you're lucky it's based just up the road in Fort Wayne. I mean, yeah. Who's your business? That is where actually the, uh, the office is, um, unfortunately there was a warehouse there in an ugly strike back in the seventies.

They just. Closed it. And you know, that was at a time when Indiana had an inventory tax, really smart and progressive tax. And so they moved all the inventory outta the state. Oh wow. So now we have nine warehouses, but none in Indiana. But, but the head office, the whole headquarters and the show is in Indianapolis.

One of the, the two trade shows is in downtown Indy That literally, you know, takes over best time to get home Improvement advice is during the, Do it Best show. I mean, I'm sure just go down on, go down any restaurant, just take out your plumbing parts and set it on any table. And a hardware guy will show you how to fix it.

Someone will like, take a bite of shrimp cocktail and say, ah, you need the extra hickeys on that. Here's your problem, here's your problem. Okay. So it's a co-op. Um, that's interesting, Dan, you have like, experience when it comes to things with co-op and, and that's similar. Well, I, I just keep like, how does the small guy compete with the big guy?

Yeah. And how do you sort of level the playing field? Like we started a handful of home services companies in 2020 under a, in a different, you know, business. And it was just so hard to compete against the national advertisers and whatnot. So, and find the people that you really wanted to, like, hire for plumbing or remodels or whatever.

So we call it a contractor co-op. And, you know, the contractors buying together, we provide at Neighbor Serve some centralized services for those folks and lift them up. 'cause you know, the, the five person electrician business or, uh, awesome master carpenter may not be the greatest marketer. And, and so we bring those folks together.

Yeah. No small businesses just like me. I, I'm still working. I'm still on the floor. They're, yeah. They may show up. I hate the office. Right. And sometimes when that, you know, the guy's working, he is buried in a job, it's like, well, no one's taking the calls on the, on the next place he's gonna go. It's like, you know, it's like, oh, we're done here.

What are we doing now? It's like, okay, now, now we'll start, you know, returning phone calls. Yeah. Right. You know, and then people have already bought by, you know. Yeah. Somebody else. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting of how the small guys together compete against the big guys. Right. When you think through a co-op that, that's actually a very helpful way to phrase that for me, of like, 'cause I mean, there are, how many different independent owned hardware stores are part of Do it Best?

Uh, let's see. We had, uh, Do it Best, had like 3,200 stores, uh, hardware and, and then, uh, a lot of lumber yards and hardware. And then, uh, True Value came along with about over 2000. Wow. So, holy cow. That's a lot. So now your buying power is even bigger. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm really excited about the True Value connection because True Value tends to be a little more hardware and, and gift type stuff, and might align a little better with our business.

You know, we have a lot of lumber guys and, you know, they talk, they talk a lot of lumber, which is like, I was on the board of directors and it's like. You know, there was a lot of talk about board feet and Yeah, whatnot. Talking about how many board feet. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's a fun fact. Like how, uh, before it gets cut.

A two by four. What is the actual measurements of a two by four? Uh, one in five, eights by three and a half. Yeah. Yeah. It's like there's saw by by four is not two by, it's two by four. Fun fact for everyone out there, the hardware fact of the day, not two by four anymore. They're not two by F and you know, just inflation.

It's no different than potato chips. Right. Or the size of a pizza they give you. They give you, yeah. Yeah. They give you less two by four. Yeah. More air in that potato. You know, we, we can't raise the price, but I'll tell you what, I got an idea. We're gonna make it smaller than a two by four. That's crazy.

Okay. So talk to me then, you're part of the co-op of Do it Best. Um, are there other innovative hardware stores, like across the country? Yeah. What are some of the craziest things that people are doing to create an elevated experience for their customers? Uh, you know, I would say, uh, they do a lot of service type stuff.

People, you know, some stores will start like a little handyman service, kind of similar to what you're doing. Sure. If I had to be critical of my fellow hardware, it's like, it's the same thing. They don't, they don't put enough effort into it, you know, it's like it's on the promotional calendar that, that we're gonna have a cookout and then it's like, oh yeah, we gotta have a cookout.

Someone needs, you know, some burgers and hots. I think sometimes that we don't. You know, I, I wish we would be a little more professional at it. Yeah. And the experience of like, I mean, let's talk about your guys' social media. It has blown up. People from around the country have traveled to your 71st and Keystone store to see it.

Like I saw tiktoks, uh, and I feel like maybe two or so years ago, you guys really started, and Arden started like pushing out a ton of content there. Right. Talk to us about how that's changed. Uh, the perception of now you don't, now you no longer just have the physical experience when you walk in there, you also have this online footprint of the experience.

Yeah, because it makes it, it kind of one like, you're okay. You, I could get online and go, Hey, we're having a umbrella sale or 20% off all weekend. You know, and it's just like, but instead we, we copied, uh, Christo and Jeanne-Claude. Is that what it was? Yeah. Yeah. The, the, they did the the large art. Yeah, you do the large.

Was that, is that drive the wrong guy? I may have. What did he do? He, he did large art. Like he would, he would cover bridges in pink chiffon. That was probably, and uh, I think it's a different, I think I'm saying Dali, I think it's, I think it's different. This is not an art history show. And he, he did, he did umbrellas in the valley and he had these, uh, umbrellas, I think it was in California that covered this valley.

And so we did that in the parking lot, made it a thing. We made it a thing. And then people didn't talk about it, you know, it was a sale, but we had umbrellas covering the parking lot. And then what would you think would happen to umbrellas when they're in a parking lot? I mean, c cars would run into 'em, so we, you know, we would, we damaged a lot of umbrellas in that.

Umbrellas were harmed in the making of this. We actually, uh, umbrellas have been a couple of our, 'cause we also did a, a repeat of the, uh, WKRP uh, Turkey drop where we decided to throw umbrellas off the roof and have them gently glide down. And in fact they went more like torpedoes and, you know, started stabbing people.

Yeah. Um, okay. But like there's a several, like, you have one of your videos on here that has almost 20 million views on Instagram. Yes. Like, that's nuts. And if anyone who follows you guys along, like it is very personality. There's funny pieces. There's like, it's not just like, huge sale come today. Yeah.

That's boring. Yeah. I mean, I have friends in, uh, the hardware business that will post a, uh. A picture of their, their circular, well, I don't even know what that means. Well, a circular, you know, like an advertising circular when you walk in the store, you Oh, so they'll just take a, they take a picture, they'll take a picture of that and post it.

It's like, and I guess that's fine. I don't know. Fine. What do you mean? Uh, it's not, okay. So like, how much time are you guys dedicating towards the social media presence of Sullivan's? Uh, it kind of goes and runs. I mean, Arden does a lot. And then we have someone at our Allisonville location that is doing social media for them.

But eventually we're gonna, all those stores will be called the same eventually. Yeah. Well I think the one I saw the other day, it was of, um. You guys had people show up and steal stuff. Uh, your patio furniture. Yeah. And you did this whole thing of like final week. Like it just like took a really crummy situation Yeah.

And turned it into something that I got unfortunately, like at your guys' expense. I gotta chuckle out of it and was like, okay, well when I'm gonna buy patio furniture though, I'm coming there to buy patio furniture. Yeah. It was just a, it was, the video was ev everybody goes, did you, is that just a setup?

It's like, no, that's our security footage of no way. Someone stealing a set patio furniture. You haven't seen this Dan? Running down the street now. Oh, Dan, look at this. This is, that's our security video of the tent we had. We were having a big tent sale. They backed up the truck. Yeah. And I think the, the, this is literally the, the caption is, this is your last chance to get the lowest prices on Patio furniture of the year.

The rumor is they'll be back, uh, October 13th for the rest come shop the tent sale before it's too late. Is there any chance that they got caught because of this video? No. Oh, no. Not. And someone says, uh, I think I, I said something and I saw someone said, luckily they didn't have a bigger truck or something like that.

They used pack it up with all your stuff and, and then roll zip outta it. Oh my God. But that was at, uh, I would expect if I was going out for patio late, I would, you know, probably hit a store like at 11 at night. That was four 4:00 AM 4:00 AM who's, who's stealing patio furniture at 4:00 AM I, I would think like 1:00 AM would be a good time to steal, you know, I mean, I'm gonna give them, I'm gonna say this, this is what happened.

That was like a Sunday at night. Like, you know, Sunday they have a barbecue and his wife had been real on him saying, ah, it could be my in-law. My parents are coming over, sweetheart, you need some new, you know, we got the patio furniture and we have that. We, we have the money. Remember we saved it in the coffee can.

So, and he's going, ah, I bet that on the Steelers game. Yeah, no. And they're like, well, luckily they live out past Shelbyville. So he was driving to get patio furniture, stopped by the casino, lost all the money and then it was screwed. Yep. There you go. Same then heard there was a tent sale at Sullivan's.

'cause he was That's wild. To the radio show. Yeah. Oh man. Wild. Okay. So as we kind of like look to the future of what's coming down, what can we expect out of, uh, you all, as we look into 2026 and beyond, like what are fun initiatives? Are there new events? Are there new things? Is there another, uh, five Star Steakhouse coming to 71st and Keystone to know about?

Uh, no. The, uh, we are, we have an expansion coming of the grill. Oh, soft serve. Ooh, I just wanna say that. Ice cream, oh, deal. Soft surf. Soft surf. Yeah. I'm interested. Yeah, I'm interested. Uh, at 71st and Keystone. Yes. I live in the neighborhood, not Ravenswood, but just south of Ravenswood, so I'm intrigued here.

Oddly, people are so good in this city. I mean, they really are now multiple times I have given out my phone number on my radio show, my cell number, and occasionally someone will text me something funny, but no one has really ever abused that. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like when you're pretty transparent with it, people are cool.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I do wanna talk, one staple of Sullivan's is that you guys are really en rooted and ingrained in this community. A hundred percent. You, whether it's giving back to ARD or whether it's giving back to other local organizations, the parishes, all that stuff. And I mean, to the point like, Dan, when you were getting your business started like one of the key marketing channels for you all.

I mean, you're just trying to be scrappy and, and I would just show up 'cause I was at Sullivan's anywhere and, and I'd be like, you again? Can I put my sign out front? And you did it with Holster, my last business. Yeah. And with neighbor server. You know, my cards are sitting in front. You're sitting right on the counter.

Some projects and, and I think, you know, Jack, I hand that card out too because what we get a lot of is people going, Hey, do you, do you know someone? Do you know someone? Right. And it's like, he does, do you got a guy that could do this, that the other thing for me. Right. But Jack Ho used to work for you, right?

He did. So you hired the kids in the community and then. They become business owners and they need some help. And he told me the same story that you let him put flyers out when he, he and Brad were just getting started and it's just like they were starting, like starting a plumbing company. And the weird thing is like, you know, Jack, 'cause he like, he goes to college and gets a worthless degree, you know, philosophy.

Philosophy. And I always say, well, back in the days of the, you know, the malls were big. He set up a, a kiosk at Castleton and throwing out some philosophy and it, and failed it didn't work. That's shocking. Yeah. But the, the philosophy store didn't work. No. You walked up and you'd pay a certain amount to, but I think it's just that get some philosophy that consistent.

So they, they came to you and said, Hey, we're starting our plumbing business and we wanna put out flyers. Yeah, yeah. We put out flyers and then I had the radio gig. So, uh, I think they, I think they first start. Advertising on my radio show. And you've got Michaelis, you've got Yeah. Lots of other local service businesses that advertise.

That was kind of a good, yeah. I mean we've had, uh, obviously Brad and Jack on and talking about their story. Hearing Dan talk about, you know, the way you give back to community. Why do you think that's so ingrained in the DNA that is Sullivan's, it's almost your obligation as a small business to, you know, to be part of the community.

It's like, you know, we, we host all kinds of fundraisers to, to help raise money. Alzheimer's, the Salvation Army. And the weird thing about like Salvation Army, some people will say, I don't agree with their religion, their politics. Sure. And I'm like. They're scooping up our neighbors off the street in the middle of the night.

Right. Nobody else is doing that. Right. Yeah. It's like, why wouldn't I want to help them? We're working and they're, they're faith based. Yeah. We're doing work with them this holiday season. They have an angel tree program. Yeah. Uh, which is helping give kids who don't, aren't getting Christmas presents.

They're getting them. That's a great program. If you ever can kick some bucks to it, or even grab, grab an angel and do a little shopping. Yeah. We're, we're sponsoring two kids and we're gonna go and we're gonna document the process. Like, we're gonna go out and buy Christmas gifts for children or community, whether you're, I don't know, the most religious or the least religious person.

Right. You can't argue. Can't argue with that. Giving children Christmas presents is a bad thing. Like that's a good thing. The community needs that. It's like the families that find themselves either through, you know, domestic abuse in the middle of the night, kids and moms out. It's like. They're there to take 'em in.

Yeah. That is so important to have that. And they're definitely, uh, they're not saying like, oh, do you believe in God? Like, you can get in here if you believe in God. Like, no, that's not how it works. They're helping our community. It's good. Yeah. We will have the Salvation Army Radiothon will be two days at our Keystone location.

Oh, cool. And that's through the, uh, the radio station. And you say, well, why would the radio station, 'cause we used to have it downtown and now we do the entire thing at our store. Now they obviously do, you know, they have people hooking up businesses, but we do all the onsite, uh, get the store ready, we get bands ready.

You might say, well why would a radio station do that? And I, I will tell you flat out, 'cause they're lazy, radio stations are inherently lazy. So if I can do that for 'em then, and it's great because, you know, the other thing really is like our store is, feels so much like Christmas. I mean, we have the train, the, the Santa Trains are running.

And we have, uh, you know, choirs and bands playing music, and people are coming in and, and just think about that. Like my kids have, I don't know, 10 Christmas pictures. Drew Schrader rents out the whole place of realtor, right? And he, he rents out the whole place and dresses up, like, buddy the Elf and my kids have 10 Christmas pictures.

Every time that I unpack my Christmas stuff and put my Christmas picture out, it's like, oh, Sullivan's. And then you just, it's tradition. Then you just go. Where did the idea for the train come from in the 1950s, sixties, seventies,

uh, during the, the era of the great department stores, the great department downtown, uh, Indianapolis had L.S. Ayres

right L.S. Ayres, and on the, uh, top floor of L.S. Ayres where the tea room was, they had a little train and everyone knew that that's where the real Santa was.

I mean, that's where you went. I mean, everybody else is a fraud. You don't smell like Santa, you smell like beef and cheese. So L.S. Ayres uh, so then that train, L.S. Ayres went outta business. The train they donated to the Indiana State Museum. Oh, cool. Uh, I don't think they use that train any longer actually. I think they have a train similar to, but I mean, it's like the Santa thing is hard.

So it was kind of a wide open thing. Mm-hmm. So, and I don't wanna say that I looked at it and go, well, I could do better than this. Sure. But that's what I did. Hey, so, so let me say, and it started off our, our, we bought one train, the first train cost $56,000. 56,000 dollars. What year is this?

The first day we, uh, ran the train, I set the house on fire with a toaster, which was a $500,000 mistake. Oh boy. Mistake. Is that how you gave Michaelis on the show? Just No, they were already in. So, you know, oddly the morning, I know I'm going off on tangent. I love it. I'm here for it. Oddly, the morning I was trying to get out of the house because I was very nervous.

It was the very first day we were running the train, one train, and I got out of the house and I, I was getting an energy bar and we have one of those appliance garages. And so my hand grabbing this and shutting the shutter on it and it grabbed the handle of the toaster. Oh yeah. And locked it on. Oh yeah.

It started the entire, and my poor wife was still asleep. Oh my gosh. So luckily the smoke detectors went off At first, she actually smelt it and she goes, oh my God, he can't even make toast. That was her first thought. So the first day you're running your brand new 56,000 train. She calls me, she goes, the house is on fire. It's like, okay, well I'm kind of busy train's running. So, and then I hear the, the fire department's right by our keystone store. I hear 'em going out, it's like, dear Lord? I go, and it is, it is in flames What what? Black Friday, I was able, 'cause our clothes were, I mean.

Everything they michala took everything. But I, but the great thing is, because it was Michaelis and I've been doing their advertising, I already knew the number 844-FIX-INDY. Right. So I didn't have to look it up or anything. Right. Right. And so I got them. But later then that night we had to go out and buy some essentials and, and underwear was half price.

Hey, because it was Black Friday. Black Friday, everything was on sale.

So, oh my gosh. Sometimes the world works, but take me through $56,000 for this train. Yes. So that's a large investment to make on like a, maybe it'll work. Right, right. And we had very, like, it was a very short, the train ride was, uh, four minutes to the North Pole and then two minutes back.

So one train. But we had a, so we had set up a couple tunnels and stuff, and we had some very primitive animation, you know, like throw a wire around us, stuffed. Uh, reindeer and have 'em bounce up and down, you know? But there was a story even then, we had a, there was a story that we played and it, and it was, uh, and we were guessing at the timing and stuff.

And so you would, you'd take four families. There's four cars, so four families go to time and you drop 'em off at the North Pole, they get out, the families that are there get back on, and then they, they do the return ride. Yep. And so, but it was a great success. I mean, it was, and it was $20, $20 is what we were charging.

And we had, we had taken Shopify and tried to make it, we didn't know what ticketing software was. And, and so we watched, because tickets go on sale every year at November 1st at four o'clock in the afternoon coming up. Do you know why? Four o'clock? Why? We don't know. Coast game ended. We don't, I don't know.

So, but we sat there and the very first. hour. We sold 18 tickets. Wait, 4:00 PM or 4:00 AM 4:00 PM 4:00 PM on November 1st. November 1st. You sold how many tickets? 18 in the very first year. And we were beyond thrilled. Wait, 18 tickets. 18 tickets in one hour. But now what do you sell? We We sell about 5,000 tickets in the first hour.

How many years ago? Well, that was, uh, 2015. A decade ago. You sold 18 tickets in your first hour. 18 tickets in the first hour. But you were happy about that? I was very happy about it. Like, you know what I mean? Hundred. I didn't know if anyone would come to this thing. Let's think. Okay. Carry the one and we only spent $56,000 on this train.

18 tickets in the first hour. First hour. But to make, you gotta remember. And then it was word of mouth. Then people saw the train and then, you know, take care. Well, that math, 18 tickets an hour, like by the time that your grandson Sully takes over in a decade or 10 decades or whatever, he could maybe pay off the original train.

18 tickets an hour. Yeah. No, it was, uh, I don't know what the sales were. The, maybe, maybe I, I think we might have gotten up to 150,000. How many, how many trains do you have now? Eight. What? Yes. Eight trains and they leave, uh, they, the trains now are about 110,000. It's a machine. Yeah. Got a million dollars in trains.

Yes, I do. What? Every kid's dream. What? How many? Yeah. Honestly, how many, uh, how many, like, months, weeks, a year. Are they in use? What are they doing when they're not? Uh, we store 'em. Just put 'em in the, don't use 'em for the pumpkin. We use 'em for pumpkin right now. They're a pump. They'll, they'll have, uh, about 20 days at Pumpkin Town.

Yep. And then, uh, they're in the, uh, 500 festival parade. We do that with them for one day, and then they run from, uh, this year they're running November 22nd through, uh, the 23rd. But Saturday tickets go on sale. As you think about. The legacy that is Sullivan Hardware & Garden, 71 years in the business. As you think about the legacy that is this, this company, the different locations, everything, what do you hope people say 70 years from now about your guys' store?

About the stores? It went from being an obligation to support a small business too. We had so much fun there. We had so much fun and it was always great to go to Sullivan's. And that's what I always wanna tell. Small businesses. There's too many, I hate the, I don't hate this. This is may come out very wrong.

You know, shop local, shop local. Mm-hmm. Shop local. If the, if the business deserves, you shouldn't shop local just because, right. You should shop local because they deserve your business. Mm-hmm. And so because they're, they're going above and beyond like they're doing something. And Yeah. Giving you an reason.

And there's a of, there's a ton of small businesses that deserve Sure. Your business. And it's like, almost like when you say shop local, it's like, yeah, do your research local too. Like see who's giving a world class experience and like Yeah. If you are strictly just a price shopper, like supporting local business is gonna be tough.

Uh, Martha Hoover talked about this Oh yeah. The value equation saying like, if the way you see value is getting the most amount of something for the least amount of money, like that's your quality's not a piece of that. Yeah. Experience isn't a piece of that then. Like her restaurant was never gonna be for you in the first place.

Right. You know, like Right. Everyone's asked like, why is an omelet so expensive? And it's like, look at what goes into the omelet. The value equation of the whole thing. The atmosphere, the whole bit. Yeah. When you're talking about, yeah. Supporting local, it's like, look at these business owners who are trying to be innovative and create this experience that is more than just like, stop in, get your burrito.

Get outta here. Yeah. Whatever. It's, because if it's just like, Hey, open the door. You know, throw out the shingle. It's like, I'm local shop here. It's like, nah, that's not how it works. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, we've come to some fun segments here at the end of the show. The first question is brought to you by our friends at J.C. Hart.

They're a leader in creating enjoyable living experiences at apartment communities, good people, all across Indiana and beyond. Check them out at homeisjchart.com. My question for you, pat, why do you call Indiana home? I mean, I've literally stood on the, on the corner, the corner of 71st and Keystone my entire life from the time I was third, third grade till I'm 65 now.

It's like I have been on one corner in this world. You want to know what's going on on the corner? Ask me good priced adult beverages at that one spot on the corner there. Yeah. You know, good stuff there. Growing up in the store, obviously you've been on that corner literally your entire life. Uh, what's one childhood chore that taught you the most about running a business?

We used to sell bait. I had to sort out the worms. And do one dozen, two dozen and three dozen doing the dirty work. Yeah. We had like little, that's why I don't get Chinese food carry out. We had these little boxes, the Chinese, and you'd get a little moss in 'em and then, and you'd just get a big bucket of worms and you had to sort 'em.

They came 500 in a box and you would scoop 'em out. You count 'em out and it just, I always would be ticked at people that would, you know, people would come in and buy the worms and they would dump 'em out and count my work and it kind of pissed me off. But you're still doing all the dirty work. You, you're in the store doing all the things the employees are doing well.

Okay. What advice would you give to other hardware store owners out there that, or maybe even just small businesses in general on how they can compete against e-commerce, compete against big box retailers, big corporate. What's the advice? Uh, you know, what specialize, which we talked about be, be the best at something.

Uh, entertain your customers, provide an experience. And, you know, I understand for some businesses it's like, maybe that's harder. Sure. It's like, you know. But I think even if you're in the funeral business, right, that's an experience, be a bad experience or, but if you Yeah. Have the softest tissues be the funeral with the softest tissues in the state of Indiana, boom.

You, you go, you go, boom. Marketing, you can have that for free. Every time we do something, it's like, we always think of the experience, you know, what is gonna, you know, peop the, some of the best comments we'll have is like, you know, uh, we do a, a big business in house plants, and during the winter, the houseplant, you know, is, is king.

And people go, you know, and that's when people have bad days, you know? Yeah, right. We're not getting very much sunlight and people go, it's like, I just come to your store when just to walk around because I'm feeling bad. And so that's, that's when you know you've reached, you know, that you've, you've kind of hit that point where they trust you and you've become kind of part of their life.

You talked about, uh, fireplaces not working out as one of your five original pillars. Yes. Have there been other, whether it's marketing initiatives or product initiatives, something that you had this great idea and you launched it and it just flatlined. Yeah. There, oh, there's been a number of them. Number of them.

Is there, is there one that sticks out? Uh, you know, it was my son Andrew bought, uh, $20,000 worth of, uh. It was the kids' pillows. There was a name for him. Everybody had 'em. Do you know the name? Pillow Pets. Pillow Pets. Pillow Pets, yeah. And he was like 20 years too late. And he like spent 20 grand. It's like we ate it on those things.

Just have pillow, pets laying around. I think we donated 'em all. Oh, there's definitely things. I mean, I mean, the problem is if you decide you want to do something, another thing for a small business is like when we decided we wanted to be the leader in artificial Christmas trees, you know, we analyzed the, the market.

Everybody has 20, every Lowe's, Walmart, everybody has 20 Christmas trees. So we came right outta the box with 70 Christmas trees. We wanted to be the leader. And I would speak of that when I was, uh. You know, speaking to the Do it Best group, and I would talk about the, the story of the, you know, Christmas trees and, you know, now we sell, you know, eight containers of artificial Christmas trees.

It's really big business. I mean, it's like, matter of fact, we have a, uh, offering services. We have a Christmas tree set up service, We maintain a thousand trees for our customers where we store 'em, we set 'em up, we shape 'em, we fix the lights, we take 'em to their house, they decorate 'em, they undecorate 'em.

We pick 'em. up Talk about the trust for that a thousand customers let you into their home. Like a thousand people trust you to come in and, and make sure their Christmas tree and like their holiday season. Just take one thing, one, one of the stressful things outta the equation. Let them do the fun part. It does.

And, and you know what helps? What's really cool is when an older couple is coming in and going, Hey, you know what? We can't get the Christmas tree upstairs or downstairs anymore. We just need to buy a smaller tree. And say, Hey, you know what? We could, if you want to keep that tree, we can take it. And it's like to see their face light up.

And if they have, you know, it's not inexpensive, it's not horrible, but it's not inexpensive. But if they have that and then they get to keep that something they always loved, it's like, boom. Yeah. And like you, we all know that feeling too when you go to grandma's house as she starts to get older and the tree goes from being huge to being small and you're kind of like, comes to tabletop uhoh.

Yeah, it comes to tabletop. That sucks. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Uh, so that do have, do you have any Yeah. Closing pieces of advice of, in that vein for how to balance trying new things and being courageous and taking risks? So, yeah. So actually now I've steered back to where I was in, in that story is that too many people and I ran into a, um, a member Do it Best and he goes, Hey, I really liked your speech.

And I tried, the Christmas tree thing just didn't work for us. And I said, that's too bad. So what, I mean how many, and I said, how many trees did you put up? He said nine. And it's like, I don't even know what to do with that. The whole point of it was to own the market. But what too many retailers do and small businesses do, is like, Hey, you know what, we're gonna try this and if we do good, then we'll expand it next year.

So, you know, maybe it's a line of, uh, China or something in a gift shop. It's like, well, you know, we'll get this one and if we do good, well ju you're not gonna do good. Yeah. No one ever, you're not going to do good.

No one ever told their friends about, oh yeah, the hardware store downtown has half the amount of trees as Lowe's.

You should go check that out. Like, you have three times as many, like you said you started with 70. Yeah. The average big box place had 20 and now we have 125. Okay. So that's six times as many. Don't throw your math at me. Yeah. Come on buddy. But it's saying like, like, I will tell my friends about something that is six times better.

See how many three put out? Nine. I thought you That's crazy. And you can grab a beer while you're looking at 'em. em I mean, that's how you feel. The Yeah, at the, at the bottom of that first tall one, you start to think, oh, you know, 20 foot tree wouldn't be too bad this year. That's right. It's a beauty, isn't it?

Car first we put a tree that way. Uh, all right, here we go. Final three questions that we ask every guest. You come on the show. Okay. This is all about the state of Indiana, so with Do it Best. And now with True Value, you have other hardware store owners from across the country. You said across the world even too, right?

Yeah. Members of the co-op, as you talk to them, you're shaking hands or asking about this guy in Indiana. What is something that the world needs to know about Indiana? It's a cool place and we don't want too many people to know what we're doing here. Everything. India is so cool, Indiana. There's so much to do, and yet we have this reputation that is just.

Nap town. Not Yeah, nap town. And like one time we go out to the East coast every year, not every, every other year or so to Beth has some, uh, family and, and we always go to Rhode Island. One guy actually said to me, it wasn't a relative, but a friend of a relative, so what do you do in Indiana for fun? And I said, during the summer, we just run through the corn fields.

He just run, man. They just run. It's exhilarated and it's really cool. I think we don't want, 'cause I don't want 'em. Yeah, I don't want 'em. He be his, his jaw dropped, like Yeah. Oh my god. Thanksgiving, you, we do our Turkey in a trashcan, trashcan, Turkey. This kid was from, uh, the East coast and he was visiting and he came along with one of my kids and I, and I said, it's very traditional here in Indiana to to cook your Turkey in a trash can.

And I really build up like that. Everybody Sure. That's just like, it's, it's what we do. It's part of our culture. 'cause again. That'll keep them alive. Keep away. There you go. He's like, he's like the protected antithesis of, of marketing for the state of Indiana. Um, okay. So I will say your store specific, I guess specifically the one at 71st and Keystone, like that one is just like a, a wonderland of, but all the stores are great.

Yeah. Tons of great things. The two big stores. And you know, because I am so, such a genius in business, as you've pointed out, I have four locations and all of them are different, right. Which is a really stupid thing to do, but Keystone is hardware and then kind of the, the wonderland of what we created.

Allisonville has no hardware, but they have an incredible amount of, uh, the nursery stock. They have Pumpkin Town. There's a restaurant out there, 49th and Penn is this a beautiful little, uh, store nestled right in, in, uh, and do a nice job with, uh, lawn and garden and hardware sell. They sell more hardware than Keystone does.

And then we have a store in Cicero that's just a hardware. It's like everyone, it's really hard to market. All these stores. Yeah, they're all different. And his experience. Yeah. So dumb. And I will say, I'll say you, Sullivan's has been, uh, for this next question has been highlighted. People have talked about how much they love the store.

It's a part of Indiana that more people need to check out. So this question for you, this is a place where we teach people about a part of Indiana that you love that maybe not, that might not be getting as much love as it could. So what is a hidden gem in Indiana? Fort Wayne, Indiana Electric Works Fort Wayne, Indiana.

Well, that's what, uh, electric Works is where we do at best headquarters is, but we, we spent a lot of time there because again, I don't get a lot of time off. We spent so much time in Fort Wayne and the history there is so many cool things in Fort Wayne. I had no idea. Yeah. I had no idea. Have you ever been in the courthouse in Fort Wayne?

I, I've been past it, but I haven't been in it. I mean, in Indy they just, you know, they tear 'em down. But I mean, they really, they somebody really managed their, when their history. When you're in downtown Fort Wayne, it's super cool. Uh, like, it's just, there's a lot going on there. It's really interesting.

Okay, so we just had the, um, the Pacers guy. So for, uh, Noblesville Boom, our G League team for the Pacers used to be in Fort Wayne, right? Called the Mad Ants. And Dan, you're gonna love this. So Mad Ants, everyone's like, oh, why would they name it after an insect? The Mad Ants is short for Mad Anthony. Mad Anthony Wayne, who the town of Fort Wayne was named after a Revolutionary War.

So when everyone was like, they were so, there was so much history and heritage tied to that team. So the moving to Noblesville is really tough, right? But I thought that was one of the coolest fun facts I'd ever heard about. Mad Anthony Wayne. Yeah. Crazy. We were just surprised the, the country clubs there.

I mean, it just has a really mm-hmm. Really cool vibe. Yeah. Okay. Final question here. This is how we get new guests for the show. We learn about other Hoosiers that are doing things that we need to know about. Who's a Hoosier? We need to keep on our radar. Someone who's doing big things than later. I would say Dan actually.

There you go. I appreciate I'm, come on. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Dan is, is doing, he's, he's, uh, that's hilarious. He's, uh, recreating a business of what, how would you describe it? I mean, 'cause it's not, you know, back in the day it wasn't Angie's List, it was Unified Neighbors. There you go. Unified Neighbors.

Just make easy, take care of your house, man. Local, everything You said, local community, everything else. And you make things easy. Yeah. Make it easy. Yeah. Just like, I make it easy for people's Christmas trees and all the different things we do. So it's really big. Dan. Yeah, I mean, Dan, what you're doing with Neighbor Serve, uh, I mean, it does make things easy if you talk about.

You know, whether it's your Christmas tree or things that you guys are doing, but like, I mean, gimme a, gimme a quick rundown. How many different things are covered under the Neighbor Serve umbrella? Oh gosh, I don't know. There's there, I think there's 90 categories of home service stuff and we'll add Christmas tree set up from Pat here shortly.

There you go. 91 now. Nice. But it's like, I mean, plumber, you, well, whether you need to like have some heavy duty plumbing done. Yeah. Or you need to have like your ceiling fan switched out or something like that. At the end of the day, we've got good local businesses that, that have earned it and we make it easy to find 'em and hire.

Yeah, and the, that's the other part too is like, what is it you have to be owned here in the, in Indianapolis. Yeah. 90% of our contractors are headquartered here. Alright gentlemen, thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure learning more about the history from 1954. Yes. Well, I hope it makes sense when, uh, people listen.

Oh, well you ever put subtitles in? Oh yeah. We have plenty of subtitles. I talk like a million miles away. This is what he means. He, the train is very fun. You should go on the train is fun. I mean, if there was your favorite time of the year that people should go out and visit Sullivans, when should they do that?

The two big times or? Uh, spring. And Spring and, uh, and Christmas. Yeah. Christmas I will say is, is a more social time. 'cause spring people are in there, man. They're, they're, they're doing the yards and stuff like that. And, you know, they're having a good, good time and stuff. But Christmas is a later, we actually stay open later during the, uh, heck yeah.

Alright. I have one, can I throw one last fact in that is interesting about Sullivan Hardware? I need it. The movie Hoosiers was based off of Milan. Milan team. Bobby Plump was the one, the real life character that was loosely based on Bobby Plump has had a, a house account at Sullivan Hardware since the seventies.

He lives right down the road. He has always, you know, he's been a really good customer. Fast forward in the 19, uh, eighties, uh, there was a guy working for us that was going to, IUPUI was in, uh, engineering. His name was Maris Valainis. Maris Valainis played Jimmy Chitwood in the movie. Oh, cool. So the, the hardware store that Bobby Plump went to, one of the clerks end up playing him in the movie.

How did that, how'd that happen? They were casting and he was playing over a pickup game over at St. Luke's. That's, they liked, they liked his jawline. There you go. That's awesome. So that's a weird little, uh, I love that Hoosiers, because they, they used a lot of Indiana basketball, like high school basketball players.

They did. He was the only one that was not a high school basketball player. Oh, wow. No way. Yeah. And classic gyms. But he, but he is a good, you know, good CYO. Basketball player and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. We had, uh, Angelo Pizzo on Yeah. The show. And he talked about building Hoosiers and everything, like the whole That's cool.

And like how they picked things up. I still love that movie. It's crazy. It holds up. They're releasing the extended director's cut. Oh, really? The footage has been lost and will be reinserted because when they originally cut the movie, it was two hours and 30 minutes long. They had to get it to two. There was like 30 minutes of unseen footage.

Oh, wow. That be coming out on a streaming service media. And that, that opening scene man, makes me go, I love Indiana. Let's go. I love it. Pat, thanks for coming by. Thanks for having me. Yeah, Dan, it's a pleasure as always. It was. It was so much fun learning about. Your business, the history of it to 71 years strong, and here's to the next 71.

Thank you. This show is made possible by our friends up at Sweetwater. Whether you're looking to start a podcast or take your content to the next level, click the link in the description to see all my gear recommendations at Sweetwater. If you want a behind the scenes look at everything we're doing across the state.

Make sure you follow me on Instagram and TikTok at Nate Spangle. Thank you so much for listening and being a part of what makes the Hoosier State. Great. We'll see you next time here on Get IN.