The Reporter Who Covered Alex Rodriguez, Shaq, The U, and Miami Heat Before Becoming the Colts Beat

Let me be clear, they hated each other and it was unbelievably real. Wow. You've got Ed Reed, you've got Clinton Portoris, Frank Gore. This was McGee. He ESPN offered me a job in 2017. It was the Miami Dolphins beatriter.

You're thinking, who didn't take that job? That had to be a wow, pinch me moment. I have never seen the city feel that way. I walked out of that arena 2 hours after a game and the streets are packed. That was a great feeling and just such an incredible time to be alive. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are, however you may be listening.

Thanks for tuning in to the Get Indiana Podcast Network. My name is Dominic Miranda and I've been covering sports for nearly a decade. Most of which right here in Indianapolis. This is the Get In Sports Podcast. We're going to be covering everything in the Hooser State, high school, college, pro, in the sports capital of the universe in the greatest state on planet Earth. Thanks so much for coming on this journey with us.

Let's get into it. On today's episode of Get In Sports, yet another premier guest. I don't know why. We just keep bamboozling people. They say yes. I'm not asking questions.

I'm happy they're coming. He's been covering the NFL since 2005 and been covering the Indianapolis Colts since 2013 for the Indie Star, The Athletic, and now for the worldwide leader, ESPN. One of the most respected voices on the Indianapolis Colts beat Stephen Holder. Stephen, thanks for making some time. I know it's your off seasonason, so thank you for coming in. Well, what's left of the offseason?

It ain't much, so that's fine. Yeah, this this will actually go July 31st, so we're going to be in the thick of it by then. So, uh, but I know you're busy. Really appreciate you coming on. Colts training camp, it's almost here and we're going to get to the boys in blue in a bit for sure. But what we've been doing this summer, we've had, you know, Kevin Bowen and James Boyd and JJ Stankovitz on now Steven Holder.

And we've been talking about kind of how you guys got to where you are because I think what's cool about Indianapolis and maybe you'd agree is people really do care who's giving them the news about their favorite sports teams and it's a very community aspectdriven area of sport in the United States. There's no question about it, especially being in the Midwest. But your story did not begin in Indiana. Down in Miami, Florida where you just got back from. Yeah. Is that right?

So correct. I want to hear about kind of a young Stephen Holder, where your love affair with sports began, sports writing. I have to imagine the Hurricanes had something to do with it. So, Stephen Holder, where did it all begin? Yeah, I mean, I was kind of a typical kid, you know, just loved all sports. I mean, baseball, football, basketball, you name it.

Um, I I remember the one a defining memory. So, I did I grew up in Miami. Um, my parents were they immigrated here from the the Caribbean before I was born. So, I was first generation American, you know. So, I'm I've gone to school my entire life, you know, as an American kid, you know, I just learning soccer like now as an adult, which is crazy cuz like my dad would sit there and watch soccer on Univision. I'm like, this is stupid.

Uh but anyhow, yeah, so I was like, you know, I was a kid growing up in the 80s in South Florida, so like I loved the Dolphins and Dan Marino was like my hero. Uh I think he came to my school one time or something. I was a kid and we had a bunch of dolphins visit and it was like a defining memory of my childhood. But anyway, um I am almost I'm about to turn 50 years old and you don't look it. Well, I appreciate that. And to this day, I will never forget this.

So we went to church every time the doors were open that we were that family and the Dolphins made the Super Bowl 1984, that spectacular season by Dan Marino. And so we would go Sunday morning, but you also had Sunday evening church. Oh, okay. And so it's Super Bowl Sunday. There's no way we're going on Super Bowl Sunday with the Dolphins in the Super Bowl. And my mom made me go and I haven't give I haven't forgiven her to this day.

I miss the first half of the game. Oh man. Well, that's a good mother though. you know, priorities. But I mean, the Dolphins are in the Super Bowl. She's like, "That's stupid football.

Who cares about that?" And it's American football, not even like real football. So anyway, like what an awful mother, right? So So anyway, they lost. And it's like, you know, I'm like, well, you know what? They'll be back.

Yeah. They'll get back to the Super Bowl. We're still waiting. We're still waiting. So anyway, but anyway, I had the the Damarino and the Marks brothers, Mark Clayton, Mark Duper, you know, for if you if you're like, you know, 27, you've never even heard of these people, but it was it was a hell of a time, trust me. Um, yeah, dolphins, hurricanes, as you mentioned.

I mean, just a great time to be alive in 1980s South Florida. Uh, it was really cool, man. And, um, you know, the heat came along in I think 1988, if I'm not mistaken. And so I had a had a high school friend whose dad had season tickets and I would be there like plus one sometimes. Uh so that was cool. I'd go with them.

Yeah. Um we couldn't afford tickets so you know just you know freeload and um Among Us, right? But anyway, yeah. So I did all that. So I say all that to say um I was your typical kid, right? and never even thinking about how the sports news got communicated or um how it was brought into your living room or any of that.

I it never occurred to me. You turn on the TV and the game's on and you turn on ESPN and there's highlights and I don't know how it happens, right? I never thought about it. Um, this is, you know, interrupt me if I'm going too long here, but um, you know, I got I took I took a yearbook class in high school like a lot of kids, right? Easy. A, let me tell you.

And Mrs. Thebomb, great teacher. And I get done with that class like my sophomore year or something. And she's like, "Hey, you know, I got this journalism class I teach. You want to take it next year?" And I was like, "Bet.

Let me get that easy A, too." I didn't get too many A's. So I was I was like the definition of your average student. So I was like I I will take all A's I can get. And um I took it and I kind of like was like this is kind of interesting. At the end of that junior year she said you know she picked me and a couple other students who she thought had potential and she said like you know hey there's this like journalism workshop at the University of Miami this summer and like you should apply.

I applied and somehow they let me in. There you go. and uh and that really opened my eyes. Went down there, spent a couple weeks on campus with the faculty uh journalism faculty and we put together this mock newspaper and this is one of my favorite stories. I got a lot of stories but this that's why you're here. But this is one of my favorite stories.

So I had never written sports up until this point. They said you like sports bet. Let's have you do sports this week. And they're like hey we want you to do this story on this high school baseball player we heard about. and they said he's going to be like a high draft pick this year. He's a, you know, South Florida high school baseball player.

And I was like, "All right, doesn't sound hard." Call the guy, interview him, talk with his coach. I think maybe his mom, I can't remember. Anyhow, turns out, you may have heard of this guy. His name was Alex Rodriguez. Really?

Alex Rodriguez was the first sports story I'd ever written in my life. No. Alex Rodriguez. What's Alex Rodriguez like as a high school kid? Uh, did we know did we know he was destined? He was he was definitely like going to be I think he was he was like a top five pick.

I can't remember. Maybe number two. I can't remember. From the beginning. He was a big deal. I remember you know if you remember Baseball America magazine back in the day I think he had like been on the cover or something like that.

So like he was a big deal but like I mean I mean how many baseball prospects have come and gone and you've never heard of him again. Right. Right. So that is so cool. Yeah. So like that was I was I got the bug and I was like you know what I'm in.

I ended up a year later going to school there at the University of Miami. Some of those same professors were my professors. The woman who ran it was actually my advisers briefly. So, I mean, I don't know if it was Destiny or what have you, but like it just really worked out well, man. And I was meant to be there. That that's so And I imagine that's pretty close to where you grew up.

I mean, how far was the campus from? Yeah. Like, you know, 30 minutes, 45 minutes from my house. Yeah. Was that big deal for you staying home too or just was it the experience with the workshop that you're like I mean this is what I need, right? I mean it wasn't I was actually I had a couple other schools I was actually kind of leaning toward um it was a good combination of like good school.

I liked it there because I had spent time on campus and like you know they gave me the right amount of financial aid to make it happen. So it was a combination of things. I I would say that um it was a great decision in the end and you end up where you're supposed to be is what I think. I really believe that and um it it really was you know my lifelong friends come from there like most of us you know who spent time on on a university campus so everything you know my wife met her there you know so like everything so not bad right it it's like everything good that's come out of your life or my life at least a lot of it traces to that decision. I mean, we talk about all the time, we're two DEPA guys and we just had the head coach on talking about Monan Bell and stuff like that and how our whole you don't understand the decision you make at 18 just sets you up either not great or sets you up amazingly the rest of your life.

You can spend like years correcting those mistakes or you can spend years like benefiting from them, right? And so, uh, thank God I was on the right side of that ledger, you know? So, um, yeah, I and and I also, I mean, I was in a great position there to like, uh, have journalism experience with like a great football team that I could cover and and division one sports and so that was huge in my development as well. Uh, so really, really fortunate, man. It really worked out very well for me. We're talking the heyday of Miami Hurricane football.

I mean, I do I have this right? In your lifetime, they've won five national championships. Pretty pretty amazing. You had to be over the moon. I almost saw a sixth. Yeah.

almost. Yeah, you were you he kept it he kept it very uh neutral while they were into the Yeah, he was he's he's surrounded by Hoosiers, you see. So, it was except when I was literally at the games in the stand. It was not neutral that night. That's awesome, man. That's really cool.

And it's so funny you bring up the Dan Marino like, "Oh, we'll be back." What a lesson of championship windows and how hard it is to to get that done. And and you covering the NFL for what, 20 years, you've probably seen it seen it all. I I tell people that all the time, sports fans, right? Uh so I remember when the Bengals went to the Super Bowl, which is a crazy thing to say, you know, if you if you would have said that like 30 years ago, but um well, they actually have been the two, but anyway, the point is when the Bengals went to the Super Bowl, I think it was that 2021. Yes.

I covered that game and one of my assignments was to write about like how the you know, this is just incredible. the Bengals have come out of nowhere and they're in the Super Bowl and I talked to some fans and all that and and one of the sentiments there was like uh you know this is a new era of Bengals football like we are never going to be the same right and they didn't say the words like you know we'll be back we'll be here every year they didn't say that per se but there was a little bit of that sentiment in their statements and I I have thought about that in the years since because they haven't even been close no and granted there's there are reasons for and Joe Burrow's health primarily, but it is something that sports fans should never forget. Live in the moment, buddy, because you don't know when it's ever going to happen again. IU fans, I'm talking to you, too, right? I mean, I I like your prospects here.

You know, you just got in fact, right, I'm a Lawrence North guy, kids. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yes.

Got a little bit of a big prospect there. I was trying to steer him. He's one of my daughter's best friends, but uh No way, Monan. But, uh, hey, you know, thanks for nothing. You know, you could have gone to Miami, but I'm happy for him. He's a good kid and, um, he's going to thrive.

But anyway, um, look, I like your your potential at IU, but again, never forget, okay? Like you get sometimes you get that one bite of the apple and you better make it count, man. No question. And, you know, we talk about, you know, Jimmy Johnson teams and then we got Dan Marino and then you go to Miami. Okay. What's the biggest thing you learned that helped craft your sports journalism?

Because it feels like you got the bug. I mean, you were talking to a young Alex Rodriguez. We got the Miami Hurricane football success, the Miami Dolphin success. Now you're in college. Really formative years. What What did you take away from that experience?

How was it for you? Yeah, it's interesting. I I I learned I think I think covering your program in college, particularly a program like that that I grew up watching was very interesting educational experience for this reason because it's sometimes a little difficult to separate, you know, your fandom from, you know, your emotions, you know, from the objectivity of like I got a job to do. If they if they make a bad decision, we got to be honest about that. If they lose, etc. , right?

So, um, I learned, I think, at a very young age, how to separate those two things and and that is something that's such a valuable lesson because even if even if you're not a fan of the team, look, there over the years, like you you spend a lot of time, you know how it is, right? We spend a lot of time in these rooms with these athletes, with these coaches and what have you. You can't help but like develop some kind of relationship, good or bad, right? You want them to succeed, right? Like I don't I don't sit in the press box like I can't wait for the Colts to lose. I hate that.

Well, how am I going to smear campaign these guys after this, you know? Right. Uh in fact, like life's easier when they win. Let's be honest. Way easier. They don't hate you.

Yeah. So, there's no downside to them winning for me. But I would say that you you do learn to separate like your yourself from whatever. You're just an observer. Yeah. you know, and your job is to is to document.

You're a historian in a weird kind of way. It's not, you know, maybe they're not playing in a historic manner, but you are on the negative side. Exactly. Either way, it's history. It's going to go in a history book one way or the other, right? And so, you know, it's um the Pacers made history of two kinds in two different in two years back toback.

Right. So, that's an example. Well, that's the that's the best thing about sports is you never know. Yeah. That right. It's great.

I mean, how many Super Bowls did we think Pton Manning and the Colts were going to win? Now it's looking back like, well, there should have been more, but you know what I mean? So, that's a great point that you make. Yeah. So, you know, anyway, I I just think that that's an important lesson and it's something I impress upon young kids that, you know, are aspiring to do what we do. Um, I have that conversation a lot like, you know, this is, oh, you want to be a sports writer or sports journalist?

Why? Oh, well, I just love sports. I don't care. Yeah. Not it doesn't matter. A lot of people love sports.

That's not the point. And I I am very like bold about that. And sometimes it's jarring for them. Like, oh, you like sports, you know stats. Well, good for you, smart guy. Who cares?

It doesn't matter. That's not That's not what's going to make you good at this job, right? What's going to make you good at this job is being able to like understand the context and see the bigger picture and understand what you're seeing in the context of, you know, the entire season or in terms of whatever the story lines are, right? um it's bigger than just like you missed the layup and they lost the game. It's it's usually bigger than that, right? Um what is this?

What are the ramifications? Is there a trend? Those kinds of things and and you have to be able to look at it in that respect and and doing that requires you to take your emotions out of it. Yeah, you have to or else you will be clouded. I mean I mean I grew up a massive Colts fan and immediately when I got here I'm like all right, we got to check that out the door because as much as I wanted to win, it just does not help you. It doesn't help the way you formulate things.

the context you bring to it. Um, you know, as much as I want them to succeed, like if if Chris Ballard makes a mistake, we got to talk about it. You know, if we're going on a decade of nothing, we got to talk about it. You know what I mean? So, that's really interesting. And so, you you learn that during your time in Miami and then it's time to get a job and you get to stay home even longer.

Miami Herald comes calling. What the the first job, no matter if you're making $20,000 a year or $100,000 a year, it's very important and it means a lot. What was that like for you? Not only to get that job, but to get it at a very well-renowned paper in the Miami Herald, you get to stay home. What was that experience like? So, there's actually I got to give you the backstory first because So, the backstory is I believe my sophomore late my sophomore year, something like that.

Um, I got an opportunity. I had actually been working at the Miami Herald throughout college. Okay, nice. Making very, very little money to be clear. Um, that's another thing you probably tell kids. If you're in it for the money, leave.

Right. Right. The money might come later, but like definitely not a way later. Yes. You're going to have to have some patience. What I would say is, so I had a I had a classmate at Miami who who actually was in that high school uh journalism class as well.

We both ended up there in the journalism program. So, so funny. Anyhow, um he ended up I think going into public relations later. But what I'd say is he came to me and said, "Hey, you know, um I I got connected with this uh this editor and like they need, you know, kids basically to go go out to high school football games and just kind of like keep the stats and like, you know, put together a few paragraphs for the newspapers back then." like we covering high school sports was like the thing, you know, we had like two pages in the newspaper every Saturday morning dedicated to all the, you know, Miami high school football, right? You can imagine.

I was just going to say, yeah, absolutely. When and we will get into a list of guys that I covered in high school in a minute and it's it's going to blow your mind. And so anyhow, he said, "Hey, so uh you know, you can I'll give you his number if you want." So I mean, I called the guy, Bill Van Smith. I call the guy and he's like, "Well, you come down here, you know, one day and we'll sit down and see if, you know, see if you're a good fit." So, I go down there and he's like, "All right, you know, I I think I I took a spelling test, I think, literally."

And he was like, "Okay, you did okay. You can spell, so you're qualified." I was like, "Wow." Put together a few sentences. Yeah. And uh, you know, he knew I was a journalism student, so I wasn't like a [ __ ] right?

And so, he's like, "Well, you know, I'll I'll call you within the next few weeks and we'll put you to work." So, that Friday night, he called me. and he's like, "Hey, we got a guy sick and like I got a football game that's uncovered and it's like an hour from my house." And he calls me kidding kickoffs like at 700. He calls me at like 6:15. I'm like, "What?

What?" But I never done this before, right? He's like, "Don't worry about it. Just isn't by fire. Do your best. Just do your best."

And I went down there and I made chicken salad out of something, man. I um found a roster and I tried to get caught up like who scored that, you know, the first three touchdowns, you know? And um if you get there it's 21 nothing. It really was, you know, and so I made it work. And um I'm sure the stats were, you know, a joke, but like you know, you cobbled it together and it it made the paper the next day. And that was the start.

And I he called me the next week and the next week after that, and it never stopped. And uh so by the time I got out of college, I was actually I had interned for the Associated Press as a news reporter and I was they had offered me a job and like a full-time job, benefits, the whole thing. I was like, "Well, duh. You take that." Um, for news, though. It was going to be news.

They'd probably do some sports, but my full-time gig was going to be news. And, and I didn't hate that. I enjoyed doing that, too, which was incredible experience. Um, there's amazing stories there, too, but we, you know, we only have so much time. But, uh, I would say I was going to take this job and I tell my editor like at the Miami Herald, hey, you know, I think I got to do this. You know, it makes the most sense.

And he's like, you're going to leave? was like, "Well, you didn't guys did give me a full-time job." Yeah. So, and they actually were like pissed I was going to leave. And I was like, "I didn't know that you liked me that much." And it was like, you know, finding out a girl liked you like more way more than she let you.

No. And so I ended up staying and they gave me a job. It was like, well, that was easy. Yeah. Right. It's like early early uh learning the negotiation like oh I just had to tell you that I had this other job.

I was like man so so all I had to do was get another job. Okay. Anyway, so yeah, I ended up staying and uh within I was covering like you know high school sports mostly in some local our local colleges and um FIU preou um you know and and then within a year or so Miami football really just started taking off again after probation, right? And they're like think we need to add some coverage here. M. So they they had me go over there and uh and be a second person on that beat and they just took off and the first year they lost my first year they lost one game the 2000 season and then I think they they beat Florida in the Sugar Bowl and then the year after that they just went on that historic run in the 2000 um 2001 season which I firmly believe is the best college football team experience.

I was just going to say I mean that is Yeah. I mean, some of the name some of the guys. I mean, who we got there? It's like, well, first of all, if you go back to the 2000 team, and I've done this for stories over the years. Go back and look at the roster from the 2000 Miami Hurricanes. That's kind of the starting point of that run, right?

It was 200 one loss, 2001 national championship, 2002 back in the national championship game, which ended with that interesting call in the end zone. Anyway, not better. So if you go back to 2000, I believe 37 of the 80 scholarship players got drafted. Wow. Over the next like five years. That is insane.

37 guys. It's like 40% of the team got drafted. More than that. It's insane. Like so like 45% of the roster got drafted. They had I don't remember how many first round picks were, but there were it was well into the double digits.

Um, you had there's a number of Hall of Famers and I can't even remember, but um, Andre Johnson's there, you've got Ed Reid, you've got uh, not a Hall of Famer, but Clinton Portoris, Willis McGee, Frank Gore gets there and he is like the third string running back and he's like, "This sucks." And he tells the running back's coach like, "No, man. Like, I didn't come here to sit on the bench." And he's like, "Buddy, this is the University of Miami, right? This is the you." And so he tells Frank, he's like, and Frank Oris told me this story personally.

Frank said, he tells Frank, "Look, man, I'll tell you what, if by the end of training camp you can learn all of the protections, all the past protections in the playbook, I'll think about playing you." And he's like, "All right, I'm in." Got to challenge guys like that. Yeah. Two days later, he calls him. I'm not kidding.

He calls him at like 11:30 at night. He's like, "Frank, like, is everything okay?" And he's like, "Yeah, coach." Like, "You told me to learn those protections." and he's like, "I learned him, so I want you to quiz me." He's like, "Man, go to sleep and we'll talk tomorrow at practice."

But I appreciate it and and that was his way on the field. So, incredible story. Yeah, it looks like Shawn Taylor was a freshman on that team. Kell Winslow Junior was there uh I think in 2008. Jeremy Shocki. Yeah, Kell Winsow, you just said.

Oh my goodness. Philip Buchanan, who was another first round pick. Uh we I I can't even remember them all, but it it was it was incredible. It was incredible. Ken Dorsey was on it team. How about that?

I mean, yeah. I mean, what a master's degree for you. Just Ryan McKini. I mean, it was it was incredible. I mean, and you know, they're good players at the time, but you clearly don't have the perspective, right? Um Well, just like Alex Rodriguez, you didn't know, but then it takes years later like, okay, that was awesome what I got to do, right?

And what uh so who what were the best guys who were the best guys you covered in Miami High School football? Okay. So, great question. So, I mentioned Andre Johnson. So, Andre Johnson, I I covered him in high school, just not specifically, but among the the players that I I personally covered. Uh Andre Johnson, I remember his team.

So, you remember Rosco Parish, who was little slot receiver for the Bills, right? So, Rosco Parish was the quarterback at Miami Senior High School, which is a legendary basketball program. Udonis Hasslam and guys like that came through there. So Miami Senior High School, not a football power, basketball power. They were like, you know, this kind of okay football team. Their quarterback was a first round pick.

Okay. Rosco Parish. Okay. Wide receiver was Andre Johnson. And this team couldn't even get out of the first round. That is Miami High School football.

That's insane. And so I remember covering them in the in the playoffs one year and like and I'm like, well, you know, they got a shot and they hit those two guys and they lost in the first round. Wow. So, so anyway, those are two guys. Frank Gore, I mentioned him already, is one of the most prolific high school athletes I've ever seen in my life, just different. He, I believe, broke the Miami Dade County rushing record um as a senior, which and I think he broke Naj Davenport's record.

So, Naj Davenport was drafted by the Packers and played played at the University of Miami as well, was prolific high school player. Uh so, I think he broke his record. Um there were I mean, just name it. It was it was incredible. Um I mentioned Will McGee is at Miami Central. Um I mean it just it goes on and on and on.

It it was really incredible. Um I would like I need to go back and like make a list cuz I'm right I'm having a senior moment. Forget but well just so many. I mean I worked in Florida a bit and just in Tallahassee and like that area South Georgia high school football was unbelievable. But the kids and the teams that would come from southern Florida, they're just different. Like Santana Moss was another one.

Oh my goodness. Yeah. I mean, you know, and and like his little brother was on the team, too, and he ended up playing at Miami and played in the NFL for a little bit. So, like I mean, it's just it it really was incredible. It was incredible. That's so cool.

So, so you're covering I imagine you're quite happy at the Miami Herald covering college sports. I mean, right out of college. What an experience. You're covering Miami Hurricanes, winning national championships, doing the whole thing in your hometown. But I imagine there was some aspirations to do more, right? So, you spent eight years there.

Like I said, unbelievable master's degree in the education of sports journalism and sports writing and everything for a huge paper. But then the Tampa Bay Times come calling and was it St. Pete Times at that point? So uh in 2005 and this is where covering the NFL begins. So was that hard to leave home? I mean you were still in Florida but the chance to cover professional sport, professional football, I imagine made that decision a little easier maybe.

Yeah. So it's it's an interesting situation. And so after covering college football, I actually covered the NBA as I had a hand in the NBA as well. And so I did that for about three years. Um kind of on a part-time basis. And so I was kind of, you know, juggling football, college football, and um I would kind of be the the second man on both of those beats, right?

Um but, you know, you you're you're still like immersed in it while you're in it. And then the season the football season would end and I'd go over and uh dive in on the uh the Miami Heat beat. And so, uh, I loved covering the NBA. I mean, a blast. Really, a blast. It's it's the most fun I think I've ever had.

That's cool. Uh, but like you, there was a very clear delineation like it's NFL and then NBA, right? I mean, there's no question about it. So, I did this day, right? Yeah. I had aspirations of covering the NFL for sure.

I wasn't maybe going to do anything about it immediately until that phone call came, but um, but definitely like it was something that I aspired to. So, yeah. Um, so I definitely took that opportunity. I will say uh before we go on, some of my favorite times were covering the NBA. And why why is that? Well, just the the the interpersonal uh relationships with the players.

It's so it's so unique. Yeah, they play so often, too. It's unbelievable. Like my last year on that beat, we had second year Dwayne Wade and Shaquille O'Neal had just been draft had just been traded to Miami. Yeah. Shaq is covering Shaq is one of the single most unbelievable experiences I have ever had in my 27 years.

Wow. What? Just just the star power. Just Shaq was just he was just he's exactly who you think he is. Okay. First of all, and just like the down to nature, I'm sorry, down to earth nature of this guy despite him being this huge icon like larger than both physically and actually.

He's so cool. like so I don't even I should tell this story. I have so many shack stories. The first one is this. All right. So he was coming off of that that uh situation with Kobe where they had fallen out.

They hated each other legitimately. But you all I don't know, right? I wasn't there, right? So I'm like I is this real? Do they really hate each other like this? Yeah.

Let me be clear. They hated each other really. And it was unbelievably real to the point I there are things I cannot repeat. Okay. That Shaq told me. I literally cannot repeat.

Not on this not in this egos or just I think so. I think that was part of and they were very different people. Oh yeah. So Kobe was like on all the way on 100 all all the time every single day. Shaq was like literally Shaq would play himself into shape. Yeah.

in the season and like you know in October 15th you'd be like my ankle kind of hurts I think I better get a scope you know and uh you know he's like ah practice free throws me they're overrated so how many uh points he could have added to his ledger exactly so you know Shaq was like I'm going to enjoy life and Kobe's like there's no life outside of basketball and so anyway I remember um I was very happy that they reconciled yeah before Kobe untimely his unttimely passing and they really did reconcile as far as I know and that was real. So I was very very happy to see that because I was like oh he really hates this guy. Um it it was it was a lot of that the two egos I think it was definitely a real thing. Um, the other thing he had this weird obsession with like Bill Walton because Bill Walton was considered one of the best big men of all time. And if you know Shaq, like Shaq really cares about the history of the game and where he ranks in the history of the game.

So I'm sitting in the the locker room one time, Eddie Jones, the old Laker and Temple star. You remember Eddie Jones. Eddie Jones was my guy and like I used to hang out in the locker room with Eddie Jones and we remember talking about basketball. He'd be talking to me about his cars and all this crap. He was a big Dolphins fan. Okay, there you go.

He grew up in South Florida. All right. And so I'm hanging out with Eddie Jones in the locker room just like before some like Wednesday night game against Milwaukee or something. Nobody's in the locker room. Everybody's just like, you know, half asleep in the training room. And me and him are sitting there.

Shaq walks in. He's got the NBA encyclopedia in his hand. Remember those things? Oh yeah. And he's got all the stats and it was pretty like, you know, all these websites now that have all this. and he's got this NBA encyclopedia in his hand and it's open to Bill uh to Bill Wash's I'm not not Bill Walton it's open to Bill Walton's page.

Yeah. And he walks over he's like you see this like Bill Walton career stats 12. 8 points 11 rebounds and something something. And he's like this is BS. He's in 50 greatest players of all time Hall of Fame all that stuff. He's like you know why?

because he's a white boy. Geez. And me and Eddie look at him like, "Huh?" Like, "What do you want us to say?" Right. So, I mean, it was just so triggered about it.

It's like he doesn't deserve this just cuz he's a white boy. And I'm like, "What? You are you are crazy." Literally, I was like, "Sha, relax." I literally said that to him like, "Sha, relax." And no, he he was unbelievable.

I I love that guy to this day. He is like he's in my top three or four alltime personalities I've ever dealt with. I love the guy. And just a stud also just I mean like you said Kobe outworks everybody. Everybody knows all the stories about Kobe Bryant. And then Shaq just physically dominant like whether he's in shape or not.

He's going to bully you in the post and just dunk all over you. So again, sorry for the tangent by the way. No, that's incredible. Please you keep them coming. But you have the Miami Hurricane stuff, Miami Heat. And so did you leave right before they won the whole thing?

I did. Oh man. But happily or luckily, um, I got assigned to cover their run to the finals the following year for my newspaper. They know you're from Miami. It's like they were like, "Oh, wait. You could do this."

So I had been I'd gone to Tampa Bay. I started covering the Buccaneers in 2005 and uh this Cadillac Williams rookie seasons. That was fun. Um he I think he was offensive rookie of the year that year. So anyway um so the 200 what 2005 and six uh heat going that run to the finals with you know with Shaq and Dwayne Wade comes of age. Yeah.

And uh so yeah I got to go back and and all the guy and it was weird. It was like I spent so much time with them the previous four years. All the guys were like where you been man like I was like oh they didn't tell you I left. And so um yeah I remember people seem to like you Stephen you got to let people know you're leaving. I have I have a way of fooling them, man. You know, so um I remember Yeah.

Like Stan Van Gundy had, you know, was the head coach when I left. I remember he called me and left me a voicemail like, "Man, I didn't even get to say goodbye to you." And so like it it was cool. Like they they were good guys, man. Like you know Dwayne was awesome. I love covering Dwayne Wade.

Um remember he met my son a couple times and like you know you know to this day like he uh he still remembers that he was like you know two years old three years old or something but he's like there's a picture somewhere of him Dwayne Wade. So like um yeah, it's just really cool experiences, man. So um but Tampa Bay was definitely like a new experience. Um the NFL was so different. It's um it just feels bigger, right? It feels more serious and like it's like, oh, this is not like, you know, a Wednesday night, you know, back toback in the NBA.

Every game just feels like it matters no matter what the record is. Uh so that was a that was a shift but in a good way you know um it's a it's a different approach. Um the locker room feels different. Everything feels different you know. Um I got to cover John Gruden um who is my biggest fan ever. He loves me.

Oh yeah though he hates my guts. Ouch. It's okay. Like he never let it show but like I know like we in our private moments it was like oh this guy really hates me but that's okay. I mean like it's not like he gets a lot. I mean, he kind of had that, you know what I mean?

So, listen, I I always tell people like every interaction I have like, you know, there a lot of times people don't want to tell you no or they want to let you down easy or like they feel maybe, you know, they don't want to be honest with you, that they just don't want to talk to you or something. And I almost feel like telling them and I have told some people, believe me, I have been told no by far bigger personalities than you. It's okay. Yeah, you're not hurting my feelings. I had Pat Riley tell me to go to hell one time, right? I'll be okay.

Again, not surprising, but but and he liked me. Yeah. So, it's fine, right? I mean, we we are very used to being told no. It's okay. So, uh but no, it was it was a a really cool experience and uh that was I think where I really started to figure out like who I was.

I I did one thing full-time and you start to understand like what it means to really like own a beat and that kind of thing. So that was a really cool experience. That's so important and that I I get jealous just working for a local TV like I wish so badly we had the staff that okay you're the IU basketball beat, you're the Colts beat because you're there every day and it's just different than like you know one day I'm covering the 500, the next the Fever, the next the Colts and like yeah you're there and they know you but you're not every single event for that team. I think that's so important and it's why they they respect those type of guys and gals who do that on a full-time basis. But what did you learn? And you mentioned coming of age in Tampa.

And I imagine too, and correct me if I'm wrong, but getting out of your hometown. It's I mean, not far, but you go to Tampa and you're on your own and you'd stay there for 13 years covering the NFL. That had to be awesome. Yeah. I mean, I was there for eight years and then um I I think what happened is like you you really develop like a a reputation, I guess, for lack of a better word because like in South Florida I was kind of like I mean I don't know but we didn't have social media back then. So some it's harder to know like you know how what people think about you and all that kind of thing.

True. But maybe for the better. Right. Right. Right. Which is fine.

I don't need to know that. But like you do have a sense like the longer you do this and the more people associate you with a particular team or sport, they start to know who you are and you know they understand they know a little about you that that type of thing. I don't think I had I don't think I was that ingrained right uh in in my early years working at the Miami Herald. you get to uh a place where you're only covering one sport and you do it for a long period of time like I did right there in Tampa Bay. Uh then you know you become synonymous with uh with that team and the fans of that team know you and you know you become you know sort of an authority. So, so that was that was definitely a nice experience and I think um but it comes with a big responsibility, right?

Because of course, you know, people like they come when they come to you, they're like, well, Stephen Holder reported that it got to have some valid validity, right? So, like don't be wrong. Yeah. Right. Right. So, um you know, so that's that's a that's an interesting part of it, too.

Um but no, I I really enjoyed it and I think um I think you do have to get away from home at some point. It wasn't wild, but but I think getting away from home um away from the teams you grew up around, you know, can can help, you know, be formative for you as well. Yeah. And I imagine those two experiences in two major cities covering major teams really crafted what it meant to build sources, to build relationships, to be trustworthy to your I mean, these are two huge well-renowned papers and you're covering the biggest things in those places, right? I mean, yeah, that had to be huge for you. It's funny.

The uh most people don't realize that like when I went to Tampa Bay in 2005, I mean, the the Tampa Bay Times was the biggest newspaper in Florida. Really, it was a little bigger than the Miami Herald, had a higher circulation. Now, they have probably no circulation, right? Because we're not doing that anymore, but um you know, we have it's it's a different delivery now, right? It's delivered online. But the point is um it was a it was like a there's a it was in terms of reputation that that newspaper had a huge reputation in the industry.

So um so it was a big deal to like work there and you know they have like numerous peer prizes the whole thing. So like it was it was a big deal and like they had there was a little arrogance there like when you worked like the management was like well you know you want to you're pitching a story to us. Well we've got to you know we've got to vet this you know. I'm like, "Hey, man, like I'm the guy on this beat. Like, I I know what I'm doing, you know? But yeah, trust me a little bit."

Yeah. But but that's okay. That was fine. I think um but but that was, you know, I think that that's good, too. Going and working in different places. And um here's something too that I think is applicable to anybody can relate to this no matter what industry you're in.

Uh when when you work somewhere when you're young, particularly in my situation, right? I was a college kid when I walked in the door at the Miami Herald, right? So, I don't think you ever lose a little kid reputation a little bit, right? I mean, I did good work. I mean, they sent me all over the world, right? So, like it wasn't like they thought I was a joke, but um I mean, I covered the NBA finals.

They did all that, right? But but at the same time, when I left and I now I'm going somewhere at I think like 29 years old, now you're looked at like, oh, well, you're a grown man when you got there with a resume, right? And so you're viewed differently, you're treated differently, and and I noticed that. And I think that was a very interesting like social experiment that I didn't intend to be a social experiment. Um interesting. Yeah.

So, I think, you know, if you if you're someone who's whatever industry, if you're in business and you start working somewhere when you when you're really young, your first job, um you're going to be seen differently in the second job cuz now you've got a resume, you've done things like you have uh people, you have references, you know, all that. It It's a very interesting thing. So, that was that was like a random lesson I learned through that. That's awesome. That's so cool. Miami, Tampa, then the Hooser State comes calling.

So, what made you leave the confines of Florida where you grew up, where you had this awesome reputation and you come to Indianapolis for the very first time? Talk me through that. I think I lost my mind. I was like, you know, sure, I love I love winter. Um, come on, man. So, all right.

So, I had kind of gotten a little stagnant in my career. Not this is not a bad thing necessarily. You want to grow, right? You want a new challenge, right? And I hadn't I hadn't nothing had really kind of like worked out. And you know, there had been some staff cuts and stuff.

I was like, "Well, let me just keep an eye open." So, I I uh like I even looked at a job covering the Patriots at one point. It wasn't going to work out. Cover your ears, everybody. Yeah. Yeah.

So, but I mean, I was like, "Well, I heard this Tom Brady guy's pretty good. I bet that job is interesting." So, um could you imagine? Yeah. Right. So, anyway, that that didn't pan out and I didn't really want to go to Boston to be completely honest.

Um, and so there were a couple of things I talked about and just, you know, just couldn't really, you know, come to fruition. And then I was like, "All right, you know what? I'm just going to stay. We're good. I'm I'm I'm not I'm not mad about that. I'm 3 hours from home."

And then one of the one of the editors from the Indie Star calls me and I this is one of my editors from the Miami Herald, ironically. He actually took a job up here and was running the sports department at the Indie Star. Okay. He calls me. And he's like, "Hey, you know, I've been looking for a cult reporter and um you know, people have recommended you to me. You know, your name's come up a lot."

And I'm like, "Really?" I was like, "Yeah, I lose my number. I ain't coming." Like, so I mean, so like I didn't say that bluntly, but I was like, he's like, you know, why don't you come up and talk about the job, you know, come, you know, meet everybody. And I was like, I don't know, man. I was like, and I actually didn't give him I didn't give him an answer right away.

and um even for like a visit and I was like I I can't imagine like I I was like I there's no way I don't know anything about Indianapolis other than those times I'd come in on road trips, covered the game and gone home, right? Which was many times but like you know or the combine, right? I mean I had never been outside of a square mile of downtown Indianapolis, right? So what the heck do I know? Um, and so I remember my wife was like, "Well, you know, you always told me, you know, like just don't write off job opportunities right off the bat." Because I had given her like speech before.

And she was like, "Well, you're doing the same thing." I was like, "Oh, [ __ ] Women are always right, guys. Especially your wives. Like, come on. You got to listen to them." So, I was like, "All right, you know what?

If you if you want me to take that trip, I'll take the trip." And so I came and they they really sold me on like, you know, we have a vision. We want to like make you we want to make this about you. Now I don't feel like I'm an egotistical person, but we all have egos, of course. And so they were like, you know, put see you on a billboard and all this. I'm like like we want you to be our expert.

I was like me. And so you know I think it was much more of a business decision than a personal decision. I'll be clear like on a personal level like there was nothing drawing me to Indianapolis but it made a lot of sense professionally and it was also there was also this like curiosity you know for for me and my wife you know we'd never lived anywhere outside of Florida you know it I'm not saying like I would have picked Indianapolis out of a hat it was definitely like a professional decision but it was also like this could be like an adventure it' be interesting you know and and who knows we don't even have to stay it'll probably just be there a few years and then we'll just come back home. Literally, that's what we were talking about. Now, 13 years later, right? So, anyway, I I come and I they they put on the squeeze and I end up I end up taking a job.

And um again, I come here not knowing or thinking this is going to be a long-term thing, but it ended up being a fantastic uh professional decision, the best one I've ever made. Um doors have opened for me. I've now, as you laid out earlier, I've worked for three outlets in one city, which is literally impossible in journalism. How cool is that? Right. I mean, that would be like you working for three of the four or five uh affiliates in the city, right?

That that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen. Come on. Two maybe. Yeah, that's it. And so, yeah, it's just somehow it's worked out.

And um and and it has been really interesting. One of the things that drew me that sold me on coming to Indianapolis, I've been talking a long time. So feel free. No, I love it. Okay. No one wants to hear me talk, Stephen.

Come on, man. Well, nobody in my house listens to me, so I'm not used to this. See, this is safe. Safe space. So, one of the things that drew me to Indie was, and I could tell this pretty early on, was that the sports fans were more invested. So, Florida is a very interesting place.

Um, you have a lot of transplants. Yeah. You have a I mean, take Tampa Bay is all transplants. Okay. Like, so go to a hockey game in Tampa and a very successful franchise, by the way. For sure.

One of the best. I would say half of the fans are rooting for the other team because they're Snowbirds, right? Right. Or, you know, they're playing the Canadians, you know, like h the the traffic in Tampa in like December versus June is like night and day. Everybody knows this. It's like, oh yeah, it's the traffic's bad.

It's it's winter time. Snowbirds, you know, and so like who are who are you even who is your fan base? Who who is your audience, right? It's a it's a very complicated thing. Same thing in South Florida. It it's a very interesting thing like the the the natives like me are like now few and far between, you know, so it's the place everybody moves to, right?

Indie like you're here because you want to be here and this is home, you know, generally, right? I'm the exception here. people like me and that informs how you how you digest your sports coverage. Yeah. And I find I found that to be the case very early on like oh like these people really care like yo what is happening? So isn't that where you want to be?

Yeah, that was great. That's that's why it worked, you know, and that's why it was so important to them like we got to get a good experienced reporter because like this audience really cares. And I was like all right, yeah, whatever. Um, but no, it was they were right. And and so now, you know, you're walking through Costco and people like, "Oh, man, I listened to your podcast or I saw you on, you know, on, you know, Station X or what have you." And, um, I'm like, man, people, they're really paying attention here.

And so, like, it was just very different. Um, and again, by the time I arrived here now, you're a much more experienced reporter. So that same effect I talked about earlier where you know you you walk in the door with a little bit of a you know with some cache I had even more of it by that point. Right. So now it's like oh no this guy's like he's he's a real like a real reporter. I was like guess I am.

Yeah. So no it so anyway it was awesome. I did not know how it would go. I had no expectations good or bad. And uh but that stuck out to you right away. I was going to ask you impression of Indiana Indianapolis just professionally and then personally.

Yeah. So, so I of course I had no experience like living here. I mean I I knew like I my my experience in Indianapolis to that point consisted of like you know sitting in the the lobby at the Marriott, you know what I mean? So what a city, right? It's great. You know I there's a big steakhouse here, you know.

So um funny I did fortunately I had already had my uh St. Elmo's cocktail sauce experience. Okay by then. So I had many years ago at the combine before moving to Indie had some colleagues who who duped me and were like yeah get some of that sauce. It's really scoop it up big. Take a big bite.

Yeah. Yeah. The whole thing, you know. And so I was a pro on that by the time I got here. So that did I didn't fall for that banana in a tail pipe. So, I was in that respect experienced in Indianapolis.

But it was it was definitely like interesting because the Midwest is so different. And I was I was going to say culturally speaking. 100%. But it but it was like you you realize like you know you think you know a lot about the world and then you realize when you live somewhere you don't know anything. And so I would I would like learn like or pick up on different terms like you know pop like what pop? Nobody says that.

What's wrong with you people? And so, um, yeah, just little things like that. It's just so different. Or even just, this is such a stupid thing, but like I remember driving out of Louisville one time and I was like, man, we're two hours away from another state. That's so crazy. Well, Florida's huge.

I know. I just like I remember driving, I think, uh, driving to Cincinnati once. I'm like, I got here in 90 minutes. That's crazy. You know, I couldn't wrap my mind around the fact that you live 90 minutes from from a state line. I grew up six hours from the state line, you know, so uh it'd be like growing up in like, you know, the middle of California, you know, so little stupid stuff like that sticks with me.

And you know, just even just like how, you know, the the seasons that was another thing like you know, I grew up in like basically a 10-month summer my entire life and I'd never even I obviously traveled all over the place, but I'd never lived anywhere that had had winter. So, I move here and the first winter we're here is a historic winter. Oh, no. It is awful. We had uh that was the year of the the Colts Chiefs like historic playoff game, right? Yes.

That game I remember that night everybody had to rush home cuz the blizzard was coming. And uh the next I think like four days Indianapolis basically shut down. It was that bad. They couldn't melt the ice cuz it was a cold snap behind the blizzard. They could not melt the ice on the road and the mayor's like, "Yeah, we're done." Yeah, everybody stay home.

Stay home. And so, welcome to Indiana, man. I was like, I hate this place. It take me home. And now it's it's so funny after now I have, you know, you climatize really quick. Yeah.

Now I just came back from back home and I'm like, my god, hate the summer here. It's like it's so hard. It's so hot. I mean, in Miami, you know. Oh, right. Right.

So humid. I'm like I went outside, you know, like get the mail or something and at my parents house and I'm like sweating by the time I get back to the door and I'm just like, how do people live here? How did you do it? You lived here, dummy. You know, but anyway, yeah, but Indie is just like it's it's big enough. I tell people this all the time, like it's big enough to be a city, but small enough to not feel like a big city, right?

Which is kind of like it's the smallest place I've ever lived, right? And I was I'm always like a big city guy, you know, like you know, my my grandparents um I spent part of my childhood in New York with them, you know, that kind of thing. So like I'm I'm a city guy. I'm never moving to a small town. Just I just can't do it, right? But this was it made me adapt a little bit, but also like it was a good thing cuz it's like, you know, there is can be so overwhelming like just traffic and just like the bigness of it all.

Sometimes it's just like sometimes it's okay to just like go places and like you feel like oh I can know somebody who knows this person. I can call in a favor or what you know it's like it's it makes the city much more accessible to you. And I don't mean traffic wise just like in terms of like who you can connect with things like that. I I I like that part about Indie, you know. Uh there's so many intersections with people um and relationships that way that you would not have in a bigger market, you know, but it also is a big enough market that we have big-time sports and it matters, you know. So, I love that mix.

It matters so deeply. That's such a good point. Not that it doesn't in other places. It just when you're in the Midwest, this is what you got. This is all you got and you grew up and your parents and your parents' parents and it's a different kind of fandom, man. like you know like the the people who the fans who who really became like Colts fans during the the Pton Manning era two things number one like the reason they're really disappointed right now is because they grew up and I mean you're probably part of that you rolled out of bed to 12 13 wins on so like this is they can't accept like we're going to win eight games every year what are we doing here right what are we doing that's just it like and I get it you know what I mean it's If you grew up in Chicago in the 90s, you know what I mean?

With Michael Jordan, you know, like said, rolling out of bed to 60 wins, you're not accepting a 40 win season, you know? So, a couple years maybe, but 10, 20 years, you're like, what is going on, right? And 40 might be pushing it some years for them. But, but my point is like I had to I had to learn the history. I mean, I knew it like they, you know, I knew what happened and when they won playoff games and all that, but you don't understand it, right? And that was actually a very interesting thing as as a reporter and you've worked in other markets, you know this, right?

Like you you have to learn that market, the people, and how they think and how they understand their team and view their team. I didn't know any of that. And so, I really had to learn that because I I showed up and like, 10 wins. What What are you What's that mad about? you know, I'm like, "Oh, I get it now." Like, they're not used to like just making the playoffs, you know, like and so that that took me some time, I think, to really understand.

And I mean, there's always mitigating circumstances and explanations, but that that's why it's it's really it's really good that you that you interact with people, that you listen to the people because that's how you learn what makes them tick and what they're thinking and how they're viewing it, and your coverage should reflect that. Yeah, absolutely. That's such a good way of putting it because there it's you cover teams differently in LA than Florida than Boston than the Midwest, right? And you it's help like it's helped me being from here because it's just kind of ingrained. For those who aren't, you have to learn it and it's it's just interesting. It makes you connect with your audience and they trust you and that's a huge thing in this industry.

And we'll talk about the Colts here very briefly, but I do want to talk about getting to the Athletic to ESPN. When you joined the athletic, it was kind of newly established. So you were kind of ground floor there of this new I mean I remember when the athletic came I was like this is awesome. This is because it was the coming of age of kind of the going away from the newspaper to viewing online and like I've been an athletic subscriber forever. It's awesome. I listen to you and Zach Kefir all the time playing video games in Florida like oh man it'd be cool to work in Indie.

Funny how things work. But and I I got to meet if you would have told me at like 20 years old, hey you're going to have be having a podcast with Steen Holder. I'd be like, "Okay, yeah, that's not happening. No way." So, this is pretty cool. But what was that getting into the athletic and then after that, you know, whether a kid wants to admit it or not, we all dream of working for the worldwide leader in ESPN.

So, you work for the athletic and like you mentioned, indie star, athletic, ESPN in like a 10-year time span basically. So, how did all that work and how were those experiences for you? Yeah, so excuse me. I I think I was I think this is correct. I think I was the first hire by The Athletic in Indianapolis. And it's weird, too, because I'm not saying I'm the only person they tried to hire.

They were coming into the market and they had been in other places, a few other places, obviously California and I forget where else were the early markets, Philly and so some other markets, but and it was working there, right? But it was if you didn't live in those markets, it was just like, you know, very nebulous thing like, all right, what exactly, you know, you didn't know. Oh, it's like do I trust this? Like what what is this national? Is this you know what I mean? They so they decided they had identified Indianapolis as one of their new markets and you know they were calling lots of people in the market to you know gauge their interest and and everybody was like yeah I don't know about that and and I they called me in fact as well and I I can admit this publicly now.

At first I was kind of like yeah I don't believe in this. cuz I don't I don't know if I'm I don't know if I can I got a good gig here. Like I don't know if I can sign on to this, you know, and um I was like I I went about my business. I was like I'm I'm perfectly happy, you know? Um and so if you're going to leave, it's like, you know, you don't want to take you don't want to feel like you're taking a risk, right? So or they call they eventually called me back.

I'm like, "Hey, you know, we wanted to revisit this with you." And I was like, "All right, well, they're pretty persistent. Maybe I should hear them out." And so I started talking to him and I started talking to people who worked there, colleagues in the industry and there were been some really like accomplished reporters who had made the jump in some of those markets. Yeah. Marcus Thompson covers uh who's in the Bay Area in in California who's you know is one of the most respected reporters in that market and is like you know a guy who um you know he's he's the guy who's like a direct line to Steph Curry you know what I mean?

That kind of thing. And like Marcus is like dude you got to do it. I'm telling you, I've gotta do it. I was like, really? He's like, I'm telling you, man. He's like, he's like, it's the best decision I've ever made.

I was like, wow. And so that really made an impression on me. Another friend of mine in the Philly market, same message. He was like, you know, do like, dude, you you got to do it. You're not going to regret it. Yeah.

And so I started getting I No one told me this is a terrible idea. No one I talked to was like, don't do it. Yeah. And obviously they're biased. They were working there, but these are people I knew personally, right? they're not going to steer you wrong.

And so I I took the leap and um yeah, I mean they they did right by me and they paid me fairly. Um which in in our industry is like it's hard to get a big raise, man. You know what I'm saying? I was like, "All right, you're going to pay me more money and I get to work less and do the stories I want to do, right?" Like maybe I'll take this chance. Yeah.

A lot of freedom it feels like. Yeah. In the early days of the athletic, it was like heaven. Yeah. It was not It was unstructured. It was like do whatever you want, but buy a plane ticket, go wherever you want.

But you're so right. It was some of the most respected people. Like I just remember getting my first experience Chicago Cubs beat report and I'm like I mean this guy is good and if he's believes in it, you know what I mean? So yeah, how cool. And they wanted you to craft your own approach to the beat and and so they allowed you to be you. Um granted everything that as it gets bigger, it gets more structured, right?

So they're not it's not the same today and and they did the the right thing. They have to scale of course right so they I understand it and they you know New York Times has a different approach all that it's still a great outlet I would work there tomorrow I love it I left on great terms um very difficult decision um I love all the people there I have nothing bad to say about the athletic I mean what they did for sports journalism was incredible because at the time they did it yes right because it was such a pivotal time where you know newspapers were trying to reinvent themselves and doing doing it poorly ly and it just it's a difficult business. The media business is a really difficult business. I know people always have takes about oh the media sucks and all that and some things about the media do suck, right? But I think generally I I think what we do is really important and I think it plays a bigger role in your life than you even know whether you realize it or not.

And you want the media you want the media to be a part of your life, believe me, even if you don't think so. And so, but we were losing a lot of that at that time, right? And I think the athletics stepped in at such a great time where as a sports fan, you now in at least the markets they were in, you now had access to hopefully, you know, the top reporters in that market, you know, basically unburdened by, you know, being able to do what they wanted to do, being told what to do. Yeah. I mean, you know, I went from working for a daily newspaper, right, which is a different approach, um, where you have to you got to fill a product every day. You have to cover every little sprained ankle, every morsel of news, right?

Every transaction. The athletics was like, "We don't care about like the practice squad move." Yeah. Don't you ever send that in. We don't want it. Tweet it and go on with your life.

And that's literally how I approached it. And so I spent my time and effort on the stuff that mattered, right? And one story that I am really proud of, um I remember uh Darius Leonard had just been drafted that year and no one knew anything about him because he played at South Carolina State and you know we saw this rookie the first day of training camp his rookie season. Swear to God, he goes he f he drops back down the seam in in I think cover two and Andrew Luck throws a laser down the seam to like whoever Ty Hilton or somebody and he goes up and takes it out of the air and leaping makes a leaping intersection on the first play of 11 on 111. Wow. And training camp.

Yeah. And we just looked at each other like oh my god that was the first play he made in training camp. Who is this kid? And I mean I knew I thought he was a good fit on paper, but I didn't know I didn't watch South Carolina State football. And um so by week two, I mean he was setting franchise records for tackles. I mean it was incredible.

So anyway, I had started I I told myself like got to tell this guy's a story, but I don't know what it is. What is his story? So I would just like, you know, kind of work work my way over to his locker while we were in the locker room. And while the other reporters were having to chase the quarterback or whoever was talking on that day, I knew like I don't have to write a story today. I should work on something big, right? And so I'd go over and talk to him and he every time I go over there, he'd like drop another like bombshell on me.

Like well, you know, when my brother died, I'm like, "Huh?" And then he's like, you know, well, you know, I had this other brother that played for the Saints in the Super Bowl run. I was like, wait, what? and you know talking about his story and how he got to where he is and you know after like three or four times of this I realized oh my god I got an incredible story here and and what a great guy to tell the story if you know anything about Darius he is as passionate as they come right so best um yeah it ended up being just an incredible story and I you know everyone eventually wrote about him but I was the first one to be able to get that opportunity tell his story and in the format that in this new format in the athletic And I just remember the impact that story had on people who were like, "Who is this kid?" And then I was like, "Oh, here's who he is." And they were like, "Oh, not only is he incredible, his story is unbelievable."

Right. So, and then people he enders himself to everybody because of you telling that story and how rewarding, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I I I really uh enjoy that part of the job and it's it's a big responsibility. Of course, I think that, you know, if someone's going to open up, you know, open up to you to tell their story, which is can't be more personal than that.

They're telling their story, right? Yeah. But they're putting themselves in your hands. Yeah. That is a big responsibility. So, um I'm very I this is not to say you never screw up, never make a mistake or don't have stories that maybe you would do differently, but um but you have to take it very seriously, you know, and so um you know, I think a lot of times, you know, we look at I I see feedback a lot of times on social media when a story gets written of a very personal nature and it's like, oh, they feel like they're exploiting this person or what have you.

What what people don't realize is that no one is coerced into any of this. Um it is somebody entrusting you to tell their story in a very personal way. And I think that is something that you earn, you know, by endearing yourself to them. So um everybody's eyes are open, I think, if if you're doing it the right way, you know. So I I I take those really really personal and I try to really like live up to that expectation. So, but anyway, I the back to the athletic.

That's a great fantastic experience story though. I mean, and Darius Leonard, I mean, what a those few years. I mean, what? Let's call it a five, six year stretch. Best in the league at what he did, right? I mean, unbelievable.

Um, okay. So, ESPN, you love the Athletic, you love the Indie Star, but it's like continuing to elevate, elevate. You don't have to move, I don't think. So, you're just like chilling in Indianapolis, and then ESPN comes calling. I believe the departure of Mike Wells made this happen. So, how how did that happen?

Because ESPN, you know, we talked off air. You know, people think one way or the other about ESPN. It's still ESPN. Still the worldwide leader. That had to be a Wow, pinch me moment. Sure.

I mean, so the thing that no one knows is, and this is people think I'm crazy when I say this. Um, ESPN offered me a job in 2017 when I was at the Indie Star. Oh. Similar job. I It was the Miami Dolphins beat rider, which is crazy, right? You're thinking you didn't take that job.

So, here's what happened. I did not know that. Yeah. Well, I don't talk about it publicly, but like, you know, it doesn't matter now. So, they had offered me this job in 2017. I would have had to move back to Miami, which, you know, all right, I'm in.

But it was bigger than that. You know, that at that point, you've got to take your kids into consideration, right? And, you know, we had moved them up here already and it's now like four years later, we're going, you know, we're moving them again and things like that. So, there that was a complication. Obviously, economics play into that, you know, little bit different cost of living. So, like, you know, you're running those numbers and all this stuff.

So, I don't know. I there it was a close call and I ended up saying, you know what, I just I don't want to move the family right now. It it's it's going to be tough. And I I was like and I had gone to Bristol and done the whole thing and met everybody and they were really excited and I was like and then I had to tell him no. And I was like, we just my wife and I just didn't agree on it and I was like, you know what? Let's just don't do it.

If if we don't feel if we're not all the way in, let's just don't do it. So now you got to call him back and be like, "Hey, you know what? I don't think I'm going to do it." And I was like, "These people are never going to call me ever again." Right. And so then Mike and Mike decides he's going to take this faculty job at at IU.

And I've known Mike Wells at this point for 20 years. Really? So he was an NBA guy, too. Hilarious. So we've known each other for years, you know, have some of a lot of the same friends. And so he calls me.

I'm at the Super Bowl in LA. I'm at the LA Super Bowl. And he calls me. I'm getting ready to go to the airport on the way home. when he says, "Hey, I'm giving you a heads up. Um, I'm probably going to take this IU job and ESPN's probably going to call you."

I was like, "Oh, man." First of all, I didn't know he was leaving. I was like, "You're leaving? Really? Oh my god." So, um, so I'm like, "All right, now what am I going to do?"

So, I'm thinking about this the whole time and and we ended up talking and I I wasn't sure because I loved my job. Yeah. At the Athletic. When I say I loved it, like it was the best job I'd ever had. Wow. I mean, I was covering the Colts, but I also had this role on the national staff as well.

You know, that's why I covered the Super Bowl and I did all kinds of things, draft stories, all sorts of, you know, features, etc. And and the goal was for me to like maybe do that full-time even, right? And and leave the Colts beat behind. I actually um asked to remain involved with the Colts. Oh, they were actually migrating me to a different role. and and I was like, well, you know, I'm here and I have like all this resource.

I was like, I still want to keep my hand in this. So, they were like, all right, that's fine. Zack Keeper was still with us. Um, I was still working with Zack at the time, so we both, you know, were able to, um, tag team and so forth. So, anyhow, um, so I was not necessarily like blown away. I'm like, I love ESPN, but I'm like, I don't know what am I leaving behind, right?

And grass is always greener, right? And so ultimately what it boiled down to was I think number one it is ESPN, right? And and that is the the bottom line and I was like there is so much opportunity for growth at ESPN now. It's hard to grow at ESPN because you're a small pond. You're a small fish in a huge pond. I was this big fish in a small pond before um working for a much smaller organization.

But you know I think I don't think my life would be any different one way or the other. I I there was no bad decision. Right. Right. But I would say like being at ESPN has gone a long way in terms of uh credibility which is I think the people I've been dealing with for many years like it didn't affect that, right? Like they, you know, I have agents and coaches and players who I've known for 20 years and like didn't change anything for them.

But if you don't know who someone is and it's like, "All right, I'm I'm calling you about a story or some news development and then I'm reporting about it on Sports Center and you make that connection like, "Oh, yeah, that's that guy." Okay. So, like, you know, that happens. I remember Shane Styen did this thing with me when he first got hired. We had like pizza and beer with him just to kind of like, you know, introduce everybody. Yeah.

It was arranged by the team and it was, you know, just we this is the kind of thing that happens from time to time. And so, um, we have pizza and beer and, um, and we're going around the table and everybody's introducing themselves and it gets to me and he's like, "Oh, no, no, I know Stephen. He's on Sports Center." Cuz I was like, "Geez, you're trying to embarrass me." I And I think um, that's awesome. Yeah.

So, I think we had been in the middle of the Jonathan Taylor holdin. Oh. So, I was on a lot. I was like, "Oh, I bet you know who I am. I bet you're tired of seeing me." Yeah.

So, anyway, um, yeah. So I I didn't um again like I said it wasn't a slam dunk and it it wasn't it was no wrong answer. Uh but yeah, I I I think that it has really it has given me different challenges, right? Um I have you are you are much better um at the broadcast aspect of this than I am because that's what you do, right? I have been in front of many many many cameras. So I'm being on camera doesn't bother me, right?

But it's different when there's, you know, when you just do analysis. I was I worked for Fox 59 for four years and and on a part-time basis doing, you know, their pregame and, you know, various other roles there. Um, you know, just sort of a freelance basis and I I loved that, right? I got to give my opinion and, you know, I would I was their expert, right? Right. And so I was like, ah, this is easy.

But actually, what's different is when Scott Vanpelt sits there and says, "All right, well, let's go to Indianapolis. Go, Stephen. Talk to us." Huh? What? What?

You know, and so now you've got to you got to tell the news. And then as opposed to just telling them what you think about the news, you've now got to to explain what happened and why and who said what and all. And you know, it's you know, you got a minute and 15 seconds to do it, right? you know, so that is a really daunting thing that you have to like it looks easy because the people you see doing it on TV are really good, right? U but it's it's terrifying. It is terrifying.

It's terrifying. And um and now it's not terrifying anymore. Um you know, I'm could be a lot better at it, but like um it's it's second nature to you. It becomes second nature, but you're still you're always improving, you know, all the reps. Um yeah, so it's uh it's a it's a pretty cool thing. It gives you another challenge.

Yeah. Even this late stage of my career, you know. So, um, that part's cool. That's so cool, man. You do a great job. I I mean, seriously, like I've said, I've followed you for for years.

I mean, you're not that old. All right. I am actually I got into sports at a young age. Okay. But, uh, that that's really cool. And wait, you want to know how old I am?

I have covered two generations of Pitman's. Oh, is that right? Tampa Bay Senior and Michael Pitman Jr. Wow. I am old. Well, let's talk about that.

I mean, you've covered the Colts for a long time, and it hasn't exactly been sunshine and roses. There's no question about that. From Andrew Luck retirement, Jonathan Taylor Holden, Chris Ballard, I mean, this mediocrity we're experiencing right now. What What has it been like? I mean, just to put it simply covering the Indianapolis Colts. I mean, is there an easy answer?

Probably not. Never a dull moment. Yeah. I I would say it it is interesting. You know, even my my bosses at ESPN, they acknowledge like the Colts are not a marquee team for us, right? That that's I'm not breaking any news there, right?

Like I mean, we spend a lot of time talking about like a handful of teams, right? That and that's just that's just the world of media, right? You talk about the things that that move the needle the most. That is what it is. LeBron, the Cowboys, the Lakers, Josh Allen, Pat Mahomes, etc. , right?

So, whatever. That's just that is just how it's always going to be. And the reason there's a reason for that. I know it sucks if you're a fan of another team. The reason for that is it's a method to the match. People respond to it.

We we measure everything. We have focus groups, metrics, the whole night, right? So anyway, um there's an acknowledgement like yeah, like you're just kind of like one of many teams, right? They they understand that. Um which is why they involve me in a lot of other roles in the NFL as well, right? But they always say to me like, you know, but there's just something about the Colts.

It's always something crazy. And I'm like, isn't it every time they're like cuz the Colts actually drive a fair amount of traffic for us, but it's because it's like some bonkers stuff is happening. I mean, Jim Ers, Jeff Saturday, Matt Ryan, Carson Wentz, Philip Rivers. I mean, we're getting to Browns territory with the quarterback jersey, right? Yes. I mean, it's crazy.

Yeah. So, but it keeps you on your toes. It does. So, they're they're like, you know, that's why we got to have somebody go on the Colts because the Colts are crazy, you know? It's and and so that's what covering this team has been like, you know, from from my first year on the beat, right? The it was the uh the I mentioned the Kansas City Chiefs playoff game, right?

I mean, you can work a long time and never see a game like that. Um you know, the second year there in the AFC Championship game, we have the flake gate. No, which I mean, been crazy, right? And so, you know, Andrew Lux injury is 2015. I can go every year and give you just a ridiculous bonkers story. You know, um 2016, I don't remember what happened, but oh well, I mean, you know, Andrew played hurt.

You had Matt Hasselbeck coming off the bench and, you know, playing, he had his own flu game, you know, if if people don't remember that story, Google it. It's insane. Um 2017, insane. Four and 12, right? And so it just goes on and on and on. 18, Andrew Luck comes back, they make the playoffs, they win nine out of 10 games down the stretch, you know?

So, um, it's never been like anything just normal. There's not a normal season. There's not. Last year wasn't a normal season. And you know, it like immediately in training camp. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. I mean, even even this year, you got I mean, what in your mind is the biggest question mark this season? You have Daniel Jones. Can he play 17 games? We don't know.

Anthony Richardson, that whole situation. Jonathan Taylor wants a new contract. Is Alec Pearson? Maybe we'll have an answer by the time this airs. Alec Pearson, DeForest Buckner's health, a lot of rookies on defense. Chris Ballard, Shane, Stiken, question marks.

Like, where do you start? For me, it's two things. Um, and they're related. They have to recreate what they did on offense last year. Yes. For this to work.

I'm not saying they there's not a scenario where they can't be good on defense. There is a scenario for that. We can touch on that. But I think this team, their hope is built around them number one having a really sharp offensive coach and Shane Stikkin. And I know there's mixed feelings about him, but he is like he's the real deal, right? You can't deny what him and Jones did last year.

No question. Right. And that has that that's different than than being a good game manager and and actual head coach, but you know, there are different questions. But like in terms of what he puts together, his scheme and his play calling ability, that's real. That's real. So they've got to find a way to become I mean I think that coach and QB pairing is so important in this league, right?

Would Patrick Mahomes be Patrick Mahomes without Andy Reid, right? May never know, right? But we know that that duo is a good duo, right? And so you're seeing it with Ben Johnson, right? Caleb Caleb Williams. um you know so I think that matters and I don't know if this will ever you know reach those heights but this pairing but I think it's a good pairing and the question is along with that can Jones stay healthy and is he is he the same guy coming off that injury I think he's going to play for sure he looks great I mean right the question for me is how does he play right right now Miles Garrett's not chasing you you know and so what is it what's it going to look like when they get into, you know, week one.

And I actually don't envision, we may have some answers on this by the time this airs, but I do not envision that he will play in the preseason. I do not expect that. So, if that's the case, we won't get a true picture until opening day. Yeah. And and we're talking just nine months post Achilles tear. Yeah.

It's an aggressive. That's quick, right? And he OTAAS, I see him sprinting. He looks good. Yes. But we're talking about a 17game grind.

First half of the season, not easy, right? also and a lot of pressure on this team and mobility is a much bigger part of Daniel Jones game than I think people recognize. Unscripted. Yes. Someone chasing you for sure. And I I think you saw that in last year because Shane Stiken started implementing his mobility into the game plan a lot more.

Not to be a runner, but to throw on the run, to move the pocket, things like that. And that is that was a fundamental element of the offense. So, you can't lose that. Is he gonna have to dial that back? I don't know. Right.

So, those are the things that that we can't answer right now. Um, and you know, look, there's going to be some adjustment. Like, they're going to have to do this without Michael Pitman. Look, he was not, you know, he he was not like prime to0 last year. I'm not telling you that. But, um, there was a lot of volume there.

He caught a lot of balls and I think there was a comfort level in throwing to him, all that. So, well, and his he's he was tough as nails. Correct. He's been there a while. He's one of the leaders on the team. Same as Franklin.

Is he as fast as he used to be? Absolutely not. But was he a leader on that defense? 100%. Kenny Moore, for sure. And so all these all these veterans, I think defense, that's a great point.

Like they went from being a very old defense to now being a super young defense. Yeah. And you know, they could have like five rookies out there. I know. It's crazy. Aggressive.

And talk about flipping the I love the guys, the players, but I also understand what rookies do. Rookies screw up, right? So, they're going to have to minimize that. You're going to have to help them. You may have to simplify all these it a ying and yang there, right? So, uh it's it's an interesting approach for a team where like everybody's tail is on the line to be completely honest.

Everybody. I mean, everybody. And we're talking about the Ravens and the Chiefs, Bengals late in the season, the Eagles. This is it's tough out here. Yeah, they did. We might get some answers early.

Yeah. Like this. It's not a People have viewed this team as like they're they're running it back. They are, but not completely. Right. The defense is completely new in many cases, at least in the front seven.

Brain Smith's gone. That's right. Right. I mean, and you know, like I said, your second leading receiver is gone. Well, your leading receiver is gone in terms of catches. you know, and um it's going to be interesting.

I this is what I this is the bottom line I give people about the Colts this year and I don't everyone's answer for this is different, right? But like all these questions we're talking about, that's the problem. They have a lot of questions. So many. And it is very possible that these could be answered in the affirmative. A lot of these things could work out well, but that doesn't typically happen across the board.

That's just not how football works. Everything works out at the same time. Like that's the best case scenario. Have you ever covered a team where it was the best case scenario? Right? So everybody's mad about something always.

Even the Eagles who won a Super Bowl the year after everything's terrible, right? There's someone's going to get hurt. Someone's, you know, whatever. You're going to get a bad call, whatever. I mean, there's always going to be a situation where your plans don't pan out the way you hoped. And so, they have these questions in like four, five, six different areas.

They're not all they're going to check all those boxes. It's just not going to happen most likely. Well, we we'll see, man. I mean, look, I like the offense. Like, if you told me a healthy Daniel Jones, can Alec Pierce be a number one receiver? I mean, that's a huge question, right?

He's getting paid like one. And then we got Josh DS, Tyler Warren, Jonathan Taylor. I love that on paper. Love it. Can they outscore everyone they play? Not quite sure that's going to happen, but yeah, look, I mean, we'll see.

I mean, who knows? Did I think they were going to go eight and two last year? No, I didn't think that was going to happen. Things were great, right? I talked myself into one seat. I don't know, right?

Maybe Sauce Gardner is like prime Deion Sanders, right? I mean, like, maybe, no pun intended, prime, but um maybe Lu will get double digit sacks. We don't know. All those things are possible, right? I think I I I can paint you a very very easy scenario where those things happen, right? But again, what if they don't?

So that's where we are. It's a it's a very interesting team, I think, to follow in 2026. No question. All right, I got two last things for you before they break down the door here. Jimmerce, covering him, what was that like? Because a lot of people don't know the behind the scenes.

He gets painted, you know, this way. And for right or for wrong, and deservingly so, maybe not, but you dealt with him personally. So, how was that? Well, first of all, if you if you put your phone on silent before midnight, you might miss a call. I I have literally woken up to voicemails from Jim Mercy. Um I woken up at like 3:00 in the morning and looked at my phone and like, uh I missed Jim Mercy.

That's not good. 12:15 and there's a 3minut voicemail. So, look, he's one of one. I have dealt with many many owners uh most of whom never talked to you and in the end I would much rather have the Jim Mercy approach than that approach because there's no question about where he stood. Now you may not always agree may not always like his management style but he certainly was was very clear about where he stood and and you knew and you could engage him and I think I I I just think that that matters a lot. I think that fans are so they're so um immersed in these teams.

Um I think it was relatable to fans for them to see that their owner like really cared. I mean that's how if I owned an NFL team I I can look at Jerry Jones and Jim I'd be talking to people all the time you know he was a fan. Yeah. I think that's why like if you talk if you mention Jim Merc like nationally there's a different I think approach than if you talk to a Colts fan about Jim Mercers. I think the Colts fans get Jim Mercy. Yeah.

And they understood like, you know what, he's just a big fan, a very very rich fan, but a but a fan, right? I mean, he grew up with this, you know, and um look, I could criticize a lot of decisions he made for sure, right? Like I mean, why are you firing a coach in the middle of the season, hiring Jeff Saturday? What? Why? Huh?

But oh my goodness. Be that as it may, right? I mean, you you can't I think the good outweighed the bad, there's no question about it, right? I mean, um, the Pton Manning decision alone, and I mean, the decision to bring Pton Manning to Indie, not the one to send him elsewhere, but I mean, look, the Ryan Leaf versus Pton Manning debate, I don't know how close that ever was, but like, you know, that was a Jim Merc decision. He was like, we're taking that guy. Like, this is Bill Polon.

No, this is not a conversation, right? And so, was it Bill Polon? I can't remember. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So, um, yeah.

So I I think those kinds of things he he also Jim Ers besides being an incredible storyteller he would tell you stories sometimes and you'd be like there's no way this is true midway through you're like and then you go and you Google it and it really happened like how his like dad fired a coach on the team bus after a game or something uh about how a Cessna plane crashed in the upper deck of Three River Stadium after a a Colts Steelers game one time in the 70s and I was like BS there is no way this is true. I googled it. It happened. Oh my word. I was like what he's got like there's no way. And so stuff like that.

So he's great about that. But the other thing is like he understood football like really understood football. And his daughters do too. They do too. Yes. Much more than people give him credit for.

Um Carly in particular, man. Like we can I I know the question is about Jim, but like Carly is from in that regard is very much like her father. Yeah. Like she understands and wants to understand all the permutations and from a football perspective like she likes she just loves ball, you know, and uh but yeah, Jim like had instincts, you know, he he'd like press his coach and GM like, "Well, wait a minute. You said this, but what about that?" Right?

And I think a lot of owners just defer because they're like, "Well, I don't know, man." So, they just defer and if it's a bad decision, then the bad decision just goes through, right? Jim would be like, "Well, wait, wait, wait. Let's take a step back because I've been through this before back in 1986, you know, when X, Y, and Z happened, right?" So, I I think that was a very I think that made him a very good owner, you know, that nothing if not informed. Yes.

Don't you want your owner to be that way? 100%. Um, but no, he is one of one. Um, I will never cover anybody like Jim Ersce ever again. And maybe that's that's a good thing, right? Who knows?

Depends on if it's uh 12:15 a. m. or not. Right. That's really cool. And yeah, Stephen, this has been great.

I mean, just learning about the Ersay covering the Colts, your journey. I I can't think enough. This is awesome. But last thing I ask all my guests, um, and we kind of talked about it earlier, but what makes sports special in Indiana? I think it's the fact that it means more here. I mean, like, I'll give you an example.

Like, you watch the you watch that Knicks coverage after the the finals and and I get that New York is a melting pot and the people from all over the world, but the the New Yorkers like it's like the greatest thing that ever happened to them, right? Like they there's so much pride in their city and all that. There's a lot of that same sentiment here. Like I mean, imagine if the Pacers ever won a title. Could you imagine? They were this close.

I know. You know, talk about that one bite at the apple. But the point is like I I just think that Indianapolis is such an easy place to just overlook, right, from the outside, right? I I was that person before I moved here. I'm like, Indianapolis, who cares? Yeah.

It's such an easy place to overlook. No one, you know, there there's there's not, you know, uh there bunch of like social media post, you know, you know, Indianapolis or what it's not trending. And so I think when we when you see that success from one of the teams that you cried over as a kid um and it's in your town that no one seemed to care about that's why I think that Pacers run land like the city I have never seen the city feel that way. I walked out of that arena I covered that series. I walked out of that arena two hours after a game and the streets are packed. Yeah.

And I'm like it's 1:00 in the morning. What are we doing? people. I mean, you can't duplicate that. I don't know that there will ever I mean, a Super Bowl run by the Colts would do it. Yeah.

But that's about it. I know. And I I saw this city in a way I have never seen it in 13 years of living here. And that is that is it in a microcosm. That's what only sports can do. That that's it, you know, cuz otherwise in the middle of a on a Wednesday night, it's a sleepy downtown, you know, everybody's just doing their own thing, right?

That was one of one. And that is a situation, a scenario you can't duplicate unless you have something that brings everybody together and gets everybody just amped up and excited, you know, no matter who you are, race, creed, otherwise. Um I and I I wish you could bottle that. I know that was a great feeling and just such an incredible time to be alive. I'll never forget it. One of the best things I've ever had the opportunity to cover and why I think we got into sports.

Yeah. unifying% excitement, happiness, good vibes, people coming together, and that's how we're going to end this right here. Stephen, this was awesome. Thank you. We're gonna have a lot of fun at our Colts camp. Hopefully, it's not too hot.

Hopefully, nothing crazy is happening, but inevitably it will. That's Stephen Holder of ESPN. He's the man. Hope you listen to this cuz you will not regret it. That's Get In Sports. I'm Don Miranda.

We see you next time.