I've been through more than I'm telling you. When you don't have forgiveness, you think of revenge. Revenge belong to God. At that point, your innocence as a child is lost. You gotta learn about that and losing your friend. That's deep. And he's not a playing victim. He's saying, I want to get these chains off me so I can do more for my community.
What was the hardest relationship to mend, or who is the hardest person to give forgiveness to for you?
From South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between. This is Get IN, the show focused on the Hoosier State and the incredible stories happening here today. I'm Nate Spangle, founder of Get Indiana, and I will be your host for today's conversation. This episode of Get IN is brought to you by Indy Grills and Outdoor Living.
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Now let's get into today's episode. My guest today is Vernon T. Bateman. He's an Indiana based artist, author, and activist who is wrongfully convicted in 1998 and spent over 25 years incarcerated. Before his release in 2023, he was raised in Gary, Indiana and he learned to draw before he could read and during solitary confinement, he created children's books and complex murals that now fuel a growing movement for his full exoneration.
I'm also joined by Professor Derek Ford. He's a professor at DePauw University, go Tigers and a visiting researcher at Korea University (Tokyo). He's also the organizational relations director at the Indianapolis Liberation Center. He's a great friend of Vernon's and played a crucial role in helping share Vernon's story.
Today we're gonna learn about Vernon's life. Growing up in Gary, how he ended up. Incarcerated for over 25 years, 13 of which were spent in solitary confinement. Uh, we're gonna just hear a little bit more about the story and this movement of from children's books to art and murals. Like everything you're doing, everything I've seen thus far is this is gonna be a wild episode.
So lock in. Uh, gentlemen, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, bro. Guys. Okay, so this story begins, uh, a little bit. If we talk about your grandfather, Bill Franklin, right? Yeah. He was a painter, a poet, A framer, yeah. Yeah. Right. Uh, and he's the first person to introduced you to art. Do you have a memory? I did see him demonstrating, yeah.
Doing this thing. Yeah. Okay. So this story starts in Lake County. Yes, sir. Right up in Gary. Yeah. Take us through what it was like growing up. You were born in 1980. Yes, sir. Growing up in Gary in the eighties and nineties, like, what was life like up there for you? Drugs, poverty. Yeah. You know, like, what was life like?
You, you know, you get to be, let's say 10 years old. Okay. You're 10 years old. What is a day in the life of you as a 10-year-old in Gary, Indiana? Look like probably playing basketball. Yeah. Like school. Yeah. I play school. Yep. After school. Play some basketball. But like, you go home, like, what's your family dynamic?
What does life feel like for Vernon and when he's 10 years old? Okay. The real, I'm gonna give you the real, yeah. My, uh, growing up my mother was like a. On drugs and stuff. So it was difficult to be, you know, but she overcame that. So just being a part of her struggle with that and overcoming it. Did you have siblings?
Me and three sisters. You and three sisters, yeah. Living with your mom? Yeah. And Gary. Yep. What was your house like? It was overprotected over me. You know, my sisters, everybody I fought, they fought. Paint us a picture of what it, like, what a day in the life, what walking into home felt like for you and Gary and, uh, roaches.
Yeah. Real life shit like, uh, roaches and, uh, you know, uh, roaches and rats. Yeah, roaches and reds. Man and poverty man. And just trying to, uh, make it. Did you know, did you know that you were in poverty? Like at the time, did you know that this is not how Before that, before I lived in Glen Park and the house that we lived in, in Glen Park was haunted.
You know, so it was different. And even talking about that type of thing. 'cause that's like, people don't believe that type of stuff. But now I guess, uh, people starting to see that, uh, I guess it was a movie that came out from Glen Park that people say, don't watch the movie. Yeah. Something like that. So we moved from Glen Park to, uh, the projects in, uh, when you say projects, like what, what does that mean?
That's like the lowest, uh, Section 8, like $28 for rent. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like so and so there were other families, other kids and the around you. Yeah. Yeah. And you're in Gary. Yeah. Um, Gary gets a bad rap, you know, like the stereotypes of Gary is not good. Um, and like some of it is just of time and other parts of it are like probably some undeserved pieces of there.
Every place where it's poverty needs some hope, you know? Yeah, from Chicago to the poverty places, it just needs some hope and somebody to do something different to show that it, it's possible, you know? Yeah. 'cause we only see a structured family through Bill Cosby, a black family. You know what I'm saying?
That was the only black structured family saw beside, yeah. Good Times and something like that. Like who were your mentors or who were people that you looked up to when you were growing up? My mother. Your mother? Yeah. My who, what about like, uh, like a male influence that you looked up to that said, Hey, one day when I grow up I want to be like so and so.
Probably my grandfather, he off and on 'cause he traveled a lot. He did art, so he did his thing. You know, for a lot of people just in general, take a. These normal everyday things like breakfast, lunch, dinner for granted, take, you know, a roof over our head without cockroaches and rats and things like that.
Yeah. Like I, I would love to know, man, like are there memories from before you turned 18 mm-hmm. That just stick with you today, that you linger on of like, being a kid and realizing this isn't, this isn't normal in those places. A lot of your friends die, you know, like in while you're a kid. Yeah. While you're a kid.
So what was the first time? Like gun, gun violence and stuff like that? Yeah. What was the first time you lost a friend to gun violence? My buddy, uh, Darnell Abernathy. Uh, they said he, uh, committed suicide. How old were you guys? Uh, I was like 11 or something like that. No way. Yeah. And, uh, he didn't commit suicide.
He got robbed. It happened on my birthday, so I'm thinking that he gonna be there at my birthday party and stuff like that. You know? So when I, uh, lost him, I felt, and this was like the person that showed me how to dribble a basketball to, you know, yeah. Play G.I. Joes with me and stuff like that. At that point, your innocence as a child is kind of Yeah.
Lost, you know, like you're 11 years old and like the normal 11-year-old is expecting, although my friends are coming over, we're gonna like, hit a pinata and like eat some cake and Yeah. You gotta hear, you gotta learn about that and losing your friend. Yeah. That's, that's deep. Did you start to feel deeper emotions?
Like, I would say the average 11-year-old that goes through their day is like, I don't know, today you're worried about Xbox or Fortnite or whatever, you know, like you're not really feeling these deep, uh, mature feelings like did you? And if you look at your, your art, and we're gonna start to get into that as we get on there.
Like you can see real emotion. Like you can see real feelings and deep thoughts and processes. Like, did, did this come at a young age for you? Yeah, actually they had a thing in the projects that, all the projects in Gary, a art contest for a fireplace, for fire, for firefighters and stuff to, uh, spread the word about fire safety and stuff.
Yeah. Different, the top three in this project, the top top three in that project, the top three in this project. So a contest. Yeah. Art contest. So I end up winning it, you know? No way. How old were you then? I think I was like seventh grade. Uh, I don't, yeah, something like that. So you're seventh grade, you went in art because you learned how to draw and to do art before you learned how to like fully read and write.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. So like, were you going to school and just like my, I don't wanna say, 'cause my mother was doing her best, you know? Yeah. Even under the struggles that she was having, she was doing her best. It's just the fact that school was d difficult for me. Yeah. And if I wasn't. I, I was still like peeing in the bed, you know what I mean?
Like, at a older age I was still peeing in the bed. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I ain't embarrassed and all that type of stuff. So even though she'll make sure I get out the house, I wouldn't, I skipped school, you know? Yeah. And it was more poverty, kids skipping school too. So Yeah. They all, and it's like you and your friends can go, like, play basketball down at the park, like find me any 10-year-old that's gonna choose to go to school versus play basketball at the park.
Yeah. Yeah. Especially getting with the t-shirt. And they, and they dirty too, you know what I'm saying? Like, they was, they probably didn't have the most expensive clothes or shoes at the time, you know? Yeah, yeah. So whenever I had Jordans, I, I'll go to school, but when they, and I play in them, so they'll be beat up and told, 'cause I'll play in 'em, you know?
Yeah. You started to grow up, you end up getting to like a high school age. But you, I, I believe you told me before, like went to one week of high school maybe. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know. Did you have to start working or like, how, what was life like as you were, you know, 15, 16, 17, 18, coming into maturity, becoming a man.
Before that though, before I even, you know, I told you the situation where I got kidnapped. I got in a, a car accident, well, not a car accident. I was riding my bike and, uh, the lady that while I was riding my bike, a lady hit me and put me in a car with her, you know? So you got hit by a woman? Yeah. Like driving her and she kidnaps you?
Yeah. How long and how long do you end up staying with this woman? I think like close to like a year or so. So you end up staying with the wrong woman who's not your mom for almost a year, because you're like, like what, what were the injuries from the car accident? My legs was broke. Your legs were broke?
Yeah. So you can't even Yeah, I was in wheelchair. Like you couldn't get away if you wanted to get away. Yeah, I was in a wheelchair. How old are you? I can't know for sure. I don't know for sure. 'cause once I went to prison, I started forgetting about numbers and Oh yeah. And really, people don't know this, but your age kid is all about your mindset on your age.
You know, like you could forget, I forgot my birthday 'cause I was hating to celebrate it while I was in prison, so I forgot it, you know? Yeah. And forgot my, so you're a kid though, and you get hit by a car and you end up, how do you end up getting back home to your actual mom? Actually, uh, I was at the mall and I remember this 'cause I started getting all my memory back, you know, and my, my mother, she gave me, uh, she gave, when we moved to the project, she, I remember my first house phone and it was (219) 938-1320.
That was the phone number. Yeah. So I remember that number, you know, and I was in a wheelchair, uh, in, at the mall with my little brother that the lady called that's told me it was. You were like not real little brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, back then they had the thing like a wish and will. They got quarters and stuff.
So at the time, the payphone was a quarter, so I, uh, called that number and my real mother answered the phone. And after that, she, uh, told me to stay there and all this and stay, don't go nowhere, but I end up, the lady came and got the phone and she talking to my mother. My mother, bro. No, my mother, she talk like a gangster.
She ain't, she cussing, holding profanity? Yeah, it's just, yeah. I mean, she stole her. Yeah, she got her, her son. Yeah. So, wait, did she end up coming to the mall and picking you up? No, I ended up getting back in a car with the lady 'cause listening to the lady, you know, and the lady, uh, pushed me out the car on the highway and while was the car was going.
What? Because she knew that you had Yeah. So I, so you're on the side of the highway and then. Did someone stop and help you? No, people was trying to do that, but I already had a fear of getting into somebody else's car. Oh yeah. So how do you end up finding your mom? Uh, I would crawl to the, uh, gas station, like the closest gas station bro.
Station. What? Okay. My mother and my auntie have pulled up and uh, there was another guy that was there that stayed, that stayed I the call, uh, some guy that was, stayed there with me. 'cause my mother has sent a lot of people out there to look around. Like I heard my son. That's just like something that like, I mean, you could make a movie about that.
Like you could, there's just so much there. Like that's a lot for anyone at any age, at any point in your life to live, man. And that's like, just where the story starts. Yeah. Take me to when you're 18, um, and your life. It's already been a, a challenge at this point. Like, and it might not feel like it that much when you're in there and like, that's all, you know, and like, this is the struggle, this is life.
Like this is the projects of Gary. But like, as someone who like grew up in a rural, you know, two parent household in rural Indiana, like, that is not the, the situation that I've like, that is crazy for anyone at any age to have experienced that. Yeah. And it gets even more crazy. Yeah. So you're 18 and your life changes forever.
Yeah. I'm gonna take you to 15. 15, yes. Okay. Take me, take me to 15. 15. They, uh, accused me of shooting a police. Yeah. You get accused of shooting a police officer when you're 15. Yeah. So I do, I think I do a year in, uh, juvie. Yeah. In juvenile. Okay. Attempted murder. And how do you end up, what ends up coming?
Like did, police officer said it was a guy in the mass. Shot me with braids, you know, so that wasn't enough evidence and they released me, but it took me a year or so to How did it feel internally? You're 15 years old and to come under acqui accusations like that? Yeah. Just for the way that you appear, just for your appearance, how you look, how did that make you feel as a kid?
Bad things was being glorified, you know, even wrong or Right. You know what I'm saying? Well, and go into that. What do you mean by that? Bad things were being glorified. Like say if it, even if you was accused of it, it was like, you, you, you, you the cool guy. You know what I'm saying? So like, the people in your community were praising like, oh, so and so is, you know, just like certain rap music.
You know what I'm saying? Like, that's like you, they glorify certain things and not really knowing the consequences. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's why the, as I elevate and mature and learn a lot things, that's why I try to give the knowledge in a different way to the different Yeah. You know? And so like Yeah.
And, and you talked about it like your grandfather was around sometimes. Yeah. But like, your positive male influences in your life were not that many of them. And if the people that you are maybe looking up to are glorifying Oh, catching a case or doing whatever, like that whole thing, like Yeah. You know, like everyone wants to, I think a lot of people wanna feel approval and want to feel like they belong to a community.
Yeah. And especially if you think about the way that the police interact with the black community. Yeah. Uh, with, and the black poor communities and the projects. I mean, you know, uh, I would say even if Vern did do it, it would be in self-defense because of the way they, you know, treat those people. It was, it was times where that was the case.
But in my situation, it wasn't 'cause I was at school when they arrested me on that, you know? But still, I mean, come on. Yeah. Get the, get out our schools, you know? Yeah. But they was doing, it was a lot going on at the time with like, even after that situation, then I get accused for a murder. So wait, after that situation at 15, you get accused for a murder again?
Yeah. In 72 hours they release me. This is where it starts. Okay. Yeah, that's where really where it starts. So what happens there? Give me the story. How old are you at this point? 16 or 17, you know? Yeah. You're 16 or 17 and you get accused of murder. Yeah. Okay. So take me through the pro. What does that look like?
Like someone is accused of murder, you're at your house and you get arrested or like what? Well, I, I think I turned myself in on it. Okay. So you found out there was a warrant for you? Yeah. No, not a warrant. It was just like more like I, I believe, I don't know if it was a warrant or what. But I went and got the interrogation thing about it and all that, and I remember it.
And, uh, once they seated, uh, I didn't have no involvement. They released me, you know? Wow. Yeah. But they were looking for you. Yeah. Why did, why do you feel like they, like in these two scenarios getting brought up as a suspect of these crimes? The environment was, so, it's like everybody lookalike, you know?
Yeah. The environment, like everybody. And that was, that was the style to lookalike at the time. That was the style, like bone thugs and harmony, you know, that was, that, you know, the, the braids that, that type of thing, you know? Yeah. That was the style, you know, so if a person, and then it just, you still, you just need somebody to be, if there's a crime, like, you know, at some point someone did something.
Yeah. You know, like whoever, whether they're. You know, looking alike or not looking alike, whoever it is. Like, okay, and, and so yeah, if every, that's hard. Yeah. That's, that's difficult. But you're not knowing this and you're not, like right now a lot of they say like Y.N.s, everybody wearing a ski mask and shut even all you like people wearing it in the store.
People. So if they say, if a person did this with a ski mask, you fit the description, you fit the ski mask. You know what I'm saying? But people not knowing this and not aware that your fashion is, uh, make you a suspect. Yeah. Okay. But people don't look at that. And our youth don't look at that because they don't.
And they just trying to look at who don't want to look like Michael Jackson? You know what I'm saying? At the time, who don't want to, that's the Michael, the escrow was the style. You know what I'm saying? I saw that fit the thing. You get released in 72 hours. Yeah. So now you've been. Uh, the suspect of two different crimes that you did not commit.
Mm-hmm. Uh, by four, you're 18. Yeah. Is there, is there the next one is that when you're 18, I did have a gun and I, uh, shot somebody in the butt. So now you have a gun. Yeah. How did, how did that, how did that end up coming to bay trying to be cool type of thing, but I, uh, was playing with a gun and shot a guy in the butt.
Like, how does a kid Yeah. Anywhere get their hands, get their hands off hand, hands on a gun? You from the country? Yeah. No, no. I think not. No. I think like people got guns more than they got money and more than they got food. Yeah. And even to this day, you know? Yeah. So that's why it took some, it takes somebody to be in the fire, to sit in the fire and see the consequences of people that, that you think that, you know, that, that made mistakes that.
And that's, that's why I designed what I did with the corporation. Yeah. Was that common? Like you're growing up, you're Yeah. 15, 16, 17, like people playing with guns in your community Yeah. And people getting killed with guns, people getting like killing they friends and it's a lot, it, it happened, you know, that's what was going on.
So then you go do, do you go serve time for shooting somebody? Yeah. No, no. What ends up coming out of that? Probably this situation here, things advance when you're, you become in 1998 Yeah. You end up getting convicted of multiple counts of violent crimes. Correct? Yeah. Yeah. And you end up getting incarcerated, uh, in 1998.
Yeah. Take me through that process of you are now, this is now, I got a daughter now. I got a child on the way. I got a child mother now. Yeah. Well, she was pregnant with my daughter. Yeah. My daughter 27 now. Yeah. Congratulations man. Yeah, that's really cool. Appreciate it, man. But yeah, she, uh, my mother, my daughter, mother died while I was in prison.
Your daughter's? Oh, yeah. My child's mother. She died while I was in prison. You know, you're an expecting father, a grandfather. Like at, well, at that time though, you're 18. Yeah. Yeah. You're an expecting father. Yeah. You're, and you're currently getting convicted Yeah. For, uh, violent, like, violent crimes. Yeah.
And take us through that, bro. Like when you're standing there, you're sitting there. I don't know how that feels. Like when someone says you're guilty and we sentence you to 25 years in prison. 30 years. 30 years in prison. Yeah. How does that feel? I couldn't believe it because I'm like, how can I even like.
Prove myself, you know, without no DNA without no medical records, without no. And they said like the lady had gonorrhea and different things and Yeah. You wanna take us through? Uh, so I filed a, I filed a, a motion in 1998 to get a DNA test and judge denied it, so I didn't know really even, and then the guys that's in prison helped me do that.
That was in the, uh, county jail. So like some, another prisoner in the county jail helps you file a motion or a movement Yeah. To get a DNA test. Yeah. For this woman who was accusing you of sexual assault. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, what the fuck, like who, what 18-year-old anywhere is gonna know what you're supposed to be doing here.
Yeah. I didn't even know how to read, you know? Yeah. The average 18-year-old probably know how to read, you know? Yeah. Well not technology that made it, you know. So do you have like a court appointed. Like lawyer. Yeah. You get a public defender. Mm-hmm. I didn't go, my public defender was trash. Well, he wasn't good.
You know, just a couple of examples. Yes. I mean, in early January, um, uh, two people, uh, Isha Nash and then Angela Truitt show up at the hospital, um, called the Police and his case, it's Angela Truitt. And, uh, present the exact same stories, um, about, uh, the, they placed at the exact same part place and time.
Yeah. Um, one girl said four guys raped there. The other girl said three guys raped there. Yeah. But the guys that they said and ejaculated inside of 'em, they let everybody go. Yeah. I was the only person that was arrested. Yeah. Well, me and the other, but Saron, right? Yeah. Saron Foley. But here's the thing is that it wasn't until a couple months later that Detective Mary Banks showed up at the alleged victim's house.
Angela Truitt with a photo book. Yeah. Right. And that's where, um, apparently she ID'd Bateman. Right. However, Truitt did not show up to the first two court hearings. And so she had to be subpoenaed by the judge to show up. The only eyewitness is the co-defendant, Foley. Right. He's not allowed to testify.
Instead, Mary Banks delivered his testimony depriving Vernon of the right to cross-examine. Right? Yeah. Now, meanwhile there's, and she says, she says, yes. Um, I took Ms. Truitt to Methodist County Lake Hospital or whatever, uh, sexual assault kit was performed. Do you know where that is? No, I do not know where that is.
Um, she says, you know, uh, and then they have the nurse come up. She signed for it and yeah, she signed for it. And then they have the nurse come up and they ask her, what goes into this, you know, sexual assault kit, et cetera, et cetera. Lemme, you know, DNA, et cetera. Lemme pause for a second. Yeah, no. This or one?
This detective? Yeah. Or remember I tell you, they accused me of a murder in seven, two hours. So this, it's the same son. This, the, this is her son, the guy that they accused me of. His, this is his, uh, mother or stepmother through marriage or something. Wait, the guy Oh yeah, the guy that got murdered? Yeah. That signed for the rape kit in DNA.
Wait, wait. Okay. So, so the murder that happened where you got released within 72 hours? Yeah. That was this detective's son who was killed. Yeah. Mary Banks. Yeah. Or nephew or something. Some relation, yeah. Yeah. So she had it out for him. You get arrested in March of 98. You're 18 years old. 18 years old, and then you go to trial.
Yeah. And get convicted. Any DNA evidence, without they, without any alibi. They never ask for his alibi. Yeah. Without any due process, uh, without following any protocols, without any sexual assault, without nothing tying him to the scene of the crime. So what was like the final, like, Hey, we have this statement from, uh, the, the detective basically like, I fit the description, you know?
Yeah. So now since we've been fighting and everything, and they, the prosecutor, I filed a subpoena duces tecum while I was in the hole. They like, what are you, uh, going to the hole for? I, they don't have no reason to put me in the hole most of the time. When you say the hole, what does that mean? I'm sorry.
That's imprison and that's isolated confinement. That's, uh, solitary confinement. So like you be in, you're imp prison three hours, then go into the hole is solitary confinement. Yeah. You don't know if it's night or day. So at 18 you get sentenced to 30 years in prison. Mm-hmm. Can you like, I wanna know Okay.
That, that moment when that verdict is delivered, I was broken, man. 'cause I really, I didn't know the di I didn't know, I couldn't under comprehend the time at all. Yeah. I mean that's, yeah. I couldn't comprehend almost twice your life. Yeah. Look that you had currently lived at that point. Yeah. So I couldn't, I couldn't even comprehend really the language that he was saying.
Yeah. I didn't even know the, the real, I didn't know the difference from guilty of innocence. I didn't that the verbal word play, I didn't know as a, felt like a slave. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I didn't know what's the definition of a innocence or guilty. I didn't know the def, I don't know how to read and stuff, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. I go to the county jail, so the county jail was like how everybody was like, you know, the guys the back in the jail's, like, how is this possible, bro? Like, how, you know? And I just saw a guy, uh, I can't even remember his name right off right now, but he's. He just, he had got sentenced to 20 years and killed himself, you know?
Yeah. He had hung himself, got sentenced to 20 years and killed himself. So I'm thinking like, man, you know, the pressure of everything and most people is like, that's 20 years and you've got 32, 30 year sentences to be served. Con Con, concurrently. Concurrently. Okay. And you should see the, the, just the justifications for it.
Right. The risk that he'll do it again. Right. His characters as follows. Dishonest, violent, manipulative. A lot of these are coded words, you know what I'm saying? Like, basically a black man, they're trying to say he is black. Mm. With all these words. And I'm thinking still, like when I wrote, reached out in prison, you know, I was, guys was helping me for, for, for a long time.
I thought that I was the only one in prison for rape. You know, because I'm the only one that could like show my paperwork to get help to try, I gotta show up to get help, you know? And people that was locked up for rape didn't. Didn't want to say show made paperwork or didn't want to come out to say, little shit, I'm locked up for rape.
You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like the people was hiding that type of charge. So people glorify the dope and murder and stuff like that. Those charges is more respected in that world, you know? Yeah, yeah. Instead of like child molesting and rape and stuff like, yeah, like that's really harsh, you know? So take us through what that looks like of you.
Like show up day one, like of prison, you get put in a cell. Like how do you end up going in and out of solitary confinement and you spend 13 years there. What were you doing that caused them to put you into solitary confinement? They tell me if I stop writing children books, they'll let me out the hole.
That was in 2022. 2023. Okay. So this is, I mean, there's a lot of time between. Yeah, that's a lot of time. Okay. So. Yeah, you're in. Like, take me through what the day. Well, we used him through what a life of a kid in Gary looks like. Yeah. What is the life of someone who's 18 years old and who's serving 30 years in prison look like?
Oh man. It's hard, man. It's hard. Yeah. Yeah. And the most, the most hardest thing was education. My neighborhood at the time was like gang related, you know? So I was in the gang, you know, in the gang. And So you're in a gang? Yeah, I'm in a gang at the time. And, and when you go to jail, county jail, you better tell 'em what gang you in.
You tell 'em up like the jail, what gang you're in. Yeah. You better tell 'em. If not they, you go put you somewhere the wrong place. Yeah. And they, you'll be, this is the interesting piece that I do want to dive into. Okay. A little bit. And 'cause it's just so, uh, foreign to me. Yeah. Of like, 'cause I didn't grow up in the projects.
I didn't grow up, like I grew up around guns, but like, they were hunting and this is a rural Indiana, you know? Absolutely. Like we had to go through hunter safety and stuff like that. Yeah. So like, you're in a gang, you have a gun. And like this, like this lifestyle is just so, uh, different and unique. And like, talk to me about like, uh, the, the forces that were in your life.
Like what was impacting you and like what was modeling you and shaping you and where were you learning about how to grow up and what was cool? What, how to be a man, how to be a man. I'm learning that like through. Once I learned how to read and understand, like, was someone in there saying like, Hey, actually it's not cool to not know how to read.
It's like you should have, you should learn how to read. You should educate yourself. You should be better the gang like and gang. So the gang was helping you be better. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The gang, it was, 'cause it went from a, see the, the first misconception of it in a was a bad misconception of gang, you know?
Yeah. And so you think of drivebys, you think of shooting, you think of killing, you think of robing, you think of gangs, you know? Yeah. But it transformed from growth. Yeah. And development. Well, when you're on the inside too, like having a community, having people there. Mm-hmm. That was, that was who giving me like, these are the guys that's giving me spelling tests and these are the guys that's giving look and you need to learn this literature.
So gang ain't just colors and blue, red and blue. Like we think, uh, that the TV give you a misconception. The literature is more, it's structure. Mm-hmm. You can't, you can't rob nobody. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. You can't steal, you can't disrespect the person. Why do you think that, uh, the gang culture really glorifies, you know, like what you talked about, like crimes and guns and all that.
Like why? 'cause it was, because it's a form of, uh, at the time, it's a form of like trying to find a way to eat. You know, these people is, they can't get jobs. They don't believe at certain levels of, to get jobs with no knowledge. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. You gotta have an application to get jobs. You gotta have this type of knowledge you gotta have.
But when you really understand it, now, the next level of it, like at first. Being a gangster and all that. That was something cool, you know, because they were, if I can interject, go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead. Because I teach some of this now in the 1970s, uh, that's when neoliberalism, as we call it, took, takes place.
And that's when the state basically, uh, but the withdraws all its funding from the, uh, projects from the inner city. And so who takes over, right, to fill that vacuum? The gangs. Right. And so the gangs are the ones who are. Educating the youth who are providing jobs, lemme say to a protecting the community and doing a lot of positive things.
Yeah. Also negative things. Yeah. Yeah. But positive things. The drugs came in and made it negative. The drugs came in the CA brought those down. Yeah. But, but however that came in and brought the, you had to, you had whoever brought it, you had to option to use it or don't use it or sell it, or don't sell it.
You know what I'm saying? My thing is this, it was first form to shape the community because the police was doing a lot to the communities that was destroyed, whatever. And it was, even though we need the police, 'cause if something happened to my child or whatever, I want people to call on the police, you know what I'm saying?
To if they can't call on certain people, you know? Yeah. It just, those things was being shaped. So when that was being shaped, it was, that was why gangs was what the structure of it. How formed the structure of it, how formed? 'cause now you get the chance to see the OGs. Now you got OGs, you know, and you got revolutionaries.
Yeah, revolutionaries is like, they hate drug dealers. They hate people that do that glorify that. They hate that, you know, revolutionaries 'cause they fought for to sit in the e equality. Yeah. So they, they don't respect a person that's fighting for a, a block or a neighborhood. That's child. That's so kiddish.
That's like, your mind is that simple. You shouldn't be more broader. 'cause we was fighting for a whole community, you know, instead of a whole, a whole like, revolutionary. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. We weren't fighting for just a, a block or a street or something like that. What, what was the first time you got sent to solitary confinement?
Uh, he had a knife and they was like, man, where is this knife at? I was like 19 at the time. And that, and the only person at the time, uh, knew what a knife was. That was me. They like, man, get outta there. You, we could, uh, they want the knife, man. It's a, it's a kitchen knife. They, and I just felt like I needed to protect myself from so much, you know, going on in there.
I'm watching people get raped on watching so much going on inside of prison. And this was before it was cameras in prison, you know. So I'll go, I go to camera, I go to prison before the cameras. So right now, like you go to prison, you, a person could, you'll sit at your desk and you could see what everybody doing.
If this time, nobody knew what nobody was doing, you know? And there was a lot going on in prison. What was a moment or two that shaped how you saw the world? I believed in God. You believed in God. Yeah. But you're probably seeing a whole lot of. But I, not, not, yeah. Not God. Yeah. I saw a lot of not God. Uh, absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah. But God took me to another level to see things like different, if you said, what made me change. Yeah. Do you think, do you think you are a different person 25 years later, from 1998, the kid who goes into prison, who now you're, you're a grandfather? Yeah. Oh, I don't wanna do public math, but like, it's 2025 and, and you're a grandfather and you spent a lot of time incarcerated.
But I was providing for my family while I was in prison. Here's the thing about Vern, is that no matter what they did to him, he didn't let it break him. You know? Yeah. I mean, there were times where, you know, he, he might've lost his faith in God questioned it, right? Yeah. But built it back up and every single time.
That they put him in solitary for bogus reasons mostly. Right? Yeah. Um, what, what did he do? I mean, he was in, so the first children's book he wrote from solitary confinement because the mother of his child was killed by a drunk driver. And he was like, how can I parent my child from solitary confinement?
And so that's why he wrote illustrated and published his first children's book. Yeah. Uh, mommy, I want to Fly. Mommy, I Want 2 Fly. And that is like, it's as a father, you know, I mean, this is, this is, this is who he is as a human being in 2010. Right. So 2010, you write, illustrate and publish your first book mm-hmm.
While you are incarcerated? While I was incarcerated, but in the whole but in the, in solitary confinement. Yeah. Your in solitary confinement. Did they give you paper? Yeah. The first time I was in solitary confinement with this book, I did, uh, I went to. Well, I was accused of throwing feces on a guard. Oh.
And that's a guy named Vernon Beam. And Vernon Beam. Uh, he was like real radical, whatever. Yeah. And he threw feces on the guard, but it was close to my name. They put me in a solitary confinement. For how long? Uh, 18 months. 18 months. Yeah. And that's common. And that's how, like did you, you didn't talk, like, do you get to talk to another person?
I mean, you was, you talk on the range and people on the range, mostly people that's on the range is taking medication. So it's a different level of conversation, you know, and everybody is like, you know, and people throwing feces. Feces is like a war weapon then, you know what, yeah, bro, 18 months you're, and how big is your, how big is the room?
This is different 'cause they took me from that room and put me in another room. Okay. This room, they only gave me two books in the Bible, you know, but it was a camera watching me 'cause they thought I threw feces, you know? So I did. I had a piece of a little, a little piece of pencil I found in the room.
And that's why I did this book. I did this book. Uh, on the walls. On the walls, yeah. No way. I first had the concept and I was visualizing like, being a father to my daughter and stuff in there. And uh, I was doing it on the back of request lips. So I'm like, man, when I make it to population, that's how I was like telling you how valuable anything that's in color, it is in that isolated confinement.
It's like you, you got crayons, like, that's like gold, you know, to a artist, to a person, especially like me, you know? 'cause that's my voice art, you know? Yeah. So, uh. So I got, when I finally got out, really who got me out at the time, and I'm just being hon honest with you, Andre Carson saw like this too much I, and got nothing to keep this man in that hole, you know?
Yeah. So he got me out the hole and, uh, how did he learn about your story? I wrote him, I reached out to him while I was Yeah. Incarcerated. Yeah. And, uh, I wrote everybody and he responded back. He was the one never respond back. You end up getting out of solitary confinement. How long after 18 months. Yeah.
And I mean, how many times did you end up getting sent back into solitary confinement over your time? I altogether added up to 13 years. 13 of your 25 years. My influence. They feel like my influence is too, like doing something positive you would think like, man, this is what, but if they can't make money off of it, why do it?
Why would we want you to do it? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So when did you start? Making money while you were incarcerated. I was already like selling food and selling, saving my food and stuff. So you, you were like selling com, like the store man, if you buy a roll tissue, bring me back too, type of thing.
You know what I'm saying? I was trying to do that to just So, just like hustling. Yeah. Because I ain't want, I was, I ain't want to so keep depending on my family to do it, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. But that's what's going on. It's a big extortion and there's, it is times where say a Roman noodle soup costs 50 cents, but now a commissary price has changed.
They say they raising it to $2 and it's like, well, it is time to not buy it. You know? Let's stand up for ourself and our family. Let's go on hunger strike. Let's, and, and you went on a hunger strike. Yeah. No, no way. Yeah. I went on hunger strike like more times than how, like how long? Sometime I go on hunger strike for, uh, 30 days or something.
30 days. Yeah. What? Yeah, but I, I go on a a a talk fast too, though. The talk fast is more, you just won't speak to anyone. Yeah. I won't speak like a, the, like a game of silent treatment, but like for a extended period of time. Yeah. Like I went on a si a talk fast for a year and uh, like a year and four months or something like that.
You didn't speak to anyone for a year and four months. Yeah. What caused you to do that? It it, it helped you. It, it, it's a different, it's, it's hard for me to just say it 'cause it sounds so, you know what I'm saying? Sound like far out, whatever. But it make you govern your mind. It make your, you govern your tongue.
You watch what you say, you speak positive. You wanna put energy in the, the influence and everything, you know? Okay. So hunger. Strikes mm-hmm. And talk fests. That's intense. You know, like a lot of people have, have no idea how that feels, you know? Um, or have been con like, had so much, uh, gumption and conviction to like, go on and do something like that.
Wow. Okay. And so how many children's books do you, oh wait, well, I was gonna say, and at the same time he is filing, uh, you know, the help of jailhouse lawyers, uh, motions, you know, jailhouse lawyers. Yeah, jailhouse lawyers, basically like people who are in jail and who studied up on law and, uh, yeah, that know the law more that know that study, the law library, like it's, it is times where people say, say this, the law library and this recreation in the gym, in the weight room or something.
This, the games and basketball and video games they brought in there. Now you probably see 70 people go here and you probably see two people go here. Yeah, because people gave up the fight or put the fight in their attorney hand, right? Yeah. So I was one of the people that was going to the law library with the guys, but our work out still different, you know?
Mm-hmm. And so because in between like 1998 and 2010, right? The victim recanted three separate times within one year sworn deposition. Yeah. Uh, wrote a letter to Bernard Carter, um, that said, uh, basically help put a innocent man behind bars. Um, and for that, I'm sorry, I, please beg of you to forgive me. I beg Mr.
Mr. Bateman to forgive me. There is a further one, uh, where she goes to court and does it, um, and says that Mary Banks pointed him out of the lineup, um, between 2003 and 2004. Um, and so, uh, that is also happening. I'm truly sorry, but the shock of all the events leading up to the police department placed me in a position to simply want to get the matter over.
I'm sorry. I give you my address and confidence if you need to contact me. Um, and I, I wanna do anything I can to help in the future. That's to Bernard Carter in 2000 and, uh, who's Bernard? Carter, uh, prosecutor at Lake County Prosecutor. Yeah. And that's in 19, uh, this, this why I was bitter of a lot of things before God.
You know, just, and then a lot of people in prison say they're innocent, you know, some people not, not innocent. And there, I mean, and there's, there are people in prison that are innocent and there are people that are not innocent. And it's, that has to be a challenge, uh, when it does probably sound like a lot of people have that have that talk track.
Yeah. It's a guy, but then there's people on the out like this. This is the, the woman who accused you Yeah. Mm-hmm. Is like recanting on multiple occasions saying that it's not true. Yeah. Yeah. Chris Veal, uh, the brother in 2009, um, wrote, uh, uh, just a notarized letter and it said basically, uh, my sister Angela Truitt, um, suffers from a, you know, bipolar psychiatric disease.
Yeah. And she actually just returned, we didn't know which it was for three days. She came back and she told the story basically similar to what she's told, uh, the police detectives in, you know, two in 1998. And, um, and I will do anything I can to clear Mr. Bateman's name. But a recantation, the way that a prosecutor fight a recantation is through bribery.
Oh, you bribe the, uh, victim or something like that. So they think that dealings are going on outside where like, Hey, we'll pay you or do whatever to get you to. So, so now when she come back to court, or my, I'm thinking I'm about to get exonerated after she done recanted and she come back to court, we like from the psych ward?
Yeah. From in her residence was a mental ward. So she get on the stand and say, well, the, I think the prosecutor, she said my sister gave her a hundred dollars to say that she, that I didn't rape her because she was a drug addict. And, and all the time that if they would've saw the time that she took her medicine at the mental ward and the time that she took the stand, it would've showed that she was incompetent to even, so I asked her, 'cause the story I tell my attorney, I said, okay.
She said that day or whatever, or that night or whatever, she walked her dog. I said, I told my attorneys, asked her, what's her dog name? I don't care what it is, you gonna know your pet's animals' names, you know, so it's just a, and he like, I don't think that'll make sense of it. I said, just ask her, what's our dog if we go go with stories since everybody take it.
'cause everybody could change stories, but can't nobody change time and can't nobody change DNA, you know? But if the DNA is out the case, I'm fighting the case with no DNA man. Yeah, a drug addict. Yeah. You can, you know, get a hundred dollars through a lot of things once, but you can't give a drug addict a hundred dollars and get rid a can three different times over a year.
Different year. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I like that. Just don't make sense. 2003, 2005, I'd be like, all right, a hundred dollars, first time, $200, second time. You know what I'm saying? Like, come on. Yeah, that's bs That's like, but they, but they believed it in that when he appealed in 2007, 2008, they said, um, they said that we conclude that the evidence does not support a finding of, you know, appellate and effectiveness and that the claim that the, uh, alleged victim or cancer testimony like is, uh, believable and the defense.
So I, I went back now to the point that now I'm looking at it like, you know what? I ain't even mad at the victim no more. I'm mad at the system because this where it, this, where it showed a miscarriage of justice right here. Because now it's to the point that, uh, where is the DNA? 'cause that's what impeach everybody Credibility.
Yeah. You know, where, just where is the DNA, you know? So the prosecutor said, the woman said the perpetrators wore condoms, but that was a lie. The woman never said that. So that was they defense. And we showed, when we went back to court, uh, the, to the prosecutor. The prosecutor, well, that guy got fired. He shouldn't have said that.
And this, that. So now we went back again. We like, now I go, I supposed to have a respond on the 26th one. I wanna talk through how you end up putting out more children's books and two, how you end up getting your freedom and where you're, where you guys, your paths crossed in the first place. Yeah, let's start there actually.
Well, through Leon Benson, um, and, uh, when we connected the next day, um, like I, you know, at the Liberation Center where, where I volunteered there, I paid a volunteer there. Yeah. You know, um, it's all community supported. Um, and I was like, all right, well this guy obviously needs to be liberated. Something about him, like I could, you know.
But like, and we believe him before he even walks in the door, because we know Leon, we know how many people are behind bars there, should it be. And so we just get to work. And I respect that, you know about Vernon and I can see that he's out there not only fighting for himself and he's not a playing victim.
He is, he's saying, I wanna get these chains off me so I can do more for my community. Because like within a two months of working together, uh, we organized a mural uncovering, uh, there was a, a gift, a philanthropic gift Dave Vernon gave to the District Theatre. And this dude's got no, you know, it's hard for him to get a job, got no money, you know, the money he gives, he gives it away to homeless people.
Right? Um, like, and, and he's doing these things for the community. Painting murals, right? Talking to kids, organizing art shows to educate about gun violence and. That is like somebody I wanna help and I want in my community. Right. But also, um, you know, then we just get to spend the time together and we got a lot in common and, you know, we both move at the same speed.
Um, and it's kind of like, uh, like you, you might not look at us and be like, oh yeah, those two are natural, you know, friends. But Vern's smart about that strategically. Right. Like, and he, he teaches me a lot. He's taught me a lot about what, like what's the biggest lesson you've learned from Vernon? Yeah.
Well, I'll say, I'll bring in my school to, to teach my students, you know, um, he's taught me a lot about the criminal injustice system. He taught me a lot about how to be a kinder, uh, more forgiving, gentle human being, right? How to, how to be patient and try to see both sides of, or, you know, all the sides in this story.
Yeah. Um, and he's taught me about, uh, art. And that's actually right before I met him. I published a book on art. My first, 'cause I finally thought I understand, understood it. Right. And like, uh, you remember that time I came over to your house? Yeah. And uh, and I was showing you that the book release launch and somebody was talking about my book and you were like, it was like they were saying the exact same about thing about what I was saying as he's, as he does with his art, you know?
Yeah. So he teaches me a lot about art too. Yeah. Yeah. How many children's books do you end up publishing while you were incarcerated? I got like 13 books, but I, I published five while I was incarcerated. What's the process look like of publishing a book while you're incarcerated? Like, I could just go on Amazon today, go on my laptop, you know, PDF scan up some things and it's out.
How are you doing it? How were you doing it? Yeah, I was doing it from the whole, at this time, like I got, it's like, uh, I got the connections in prison and stuff, so. Uh, even while I'm in the hole, the guys that's at the law library, I could get 'em a coffee or something and they, uh, edited and try to, you know, help me as best as the way they can.
And how, how could you get them something while you were in solitary confinement? I could have like, my family to send them money or something like that, you know? Dude, it just seems like a really high stakes, like, scenario situation and like learning how to navigate that seems intense. Yeah, it's, it's so much man.
Like, it's, it is, I did a board game. I did this book, I did, I built a board game. It took me, uh, four and a half years to build a board game on this book. So the board game, and I built it outta popsicle sticks. So they, at the time they stopped, uh, serving Popsicle sticks, selling Popsicle sticks to prisoners as a guy made a knife out of it, you know, and uh, end up stabbing somebody or whatever.
So that's why they don't even serve pork chops 'cause. God took a pork chop bone and killed a person. Like, like there are bad. Mm-hmm. Like you've seen, you know, you talked about being God-fearing, like you've seen innocent people and you've seen evil. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And that, how should someone who's never been in that space think about that?
Because I do think it's this blanket of like, yeah, everyone is the most evil person you've ever met. You could think that way, or you could think that somebody could be the best person too. Mm-hmm. But most people as a defense, and they think like that, like, I know people like, man, why you, who, you probably just met this person.
That's what you always say. How long y'all been? And it'll probably be 20 minutes from now with me. You know? And people are like, man, you talk to, like, you talk to strangers is this type of stuff. Yeah. But I just, I just feel like, man, you gotta give up. Like I, I learned, I like in this book, and they can't hurt me no more.
I taught, I try to teach the art of forgiveness. Yeah. That's what was missing, you know? Yeah. And one of the books, uh, so this was, They Can't Hurt Me No More! No More!. Yeah. This about the art of Forgiveness. Yeah. What was the hardest relationship to Mend? Or who was the hardest person to give forgiveness to for you? I've been through so much, man.
I've been through more than I'm telling you, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, really, like way more than I'm telling you, you know? Yeah. No matter what, just put revenge. 'cause you think of revenge, you know, when you don't have forgiveness, you think of revenge. But when you have God, you know, revenge belong to God.
You know? Talk to me about, um, the other book, I'm, the title's escaping me, but of, uh, about gun violence. If Bullets Could Cry, If Bullets Could Cry. Yeah. You wanna show that to the, yeah. Okay. Yeah. What, what's this book about If Bullets Could Cry? It's about like social injustice, but I gave bullets, emotions and the concept and ideology.
Perception for they could feel and they could, they could go through it and they could they not. The ones that's killing, it's the people that's using the bullets to kill. Yeah. Because some people really love they guns, you know, it's, people love they guns like, so that's why I try to find the bridge because I really pr you gotta think, I've been in prison with people that principal levels probably don't line up with mine, but we still stood in the same line to eat.
Yeah. You know, and we still had to pray over the food. So I look at it like, uh, guys that really made mistakes while they was children. It's no bridge to make remorse. It's no remorse bridge around. Like even if a guy killed this person and they get sentenced to the death penalty, what's to me? Uh, just only my opinion, what's bigger?
What. How that guy greater 'cause he killed a person with a gun and you killed him with a needle. Mm-hmm. To me it don't, it don't, it's still the same, you know, like prisons are supposed to be rehabilitative. Like if you a person do believe in prison, like I know you gotta believe in me, you know, because I been through with a broken, I am like the face of fallen humanity where everybody that gave up and everybody then like, said this and said that, but no matter to be accused of rape, to me that's like everything against our stand for, you know?
So that's why I gotta fight beyond the walls, you know. How did you end up getting released? Uh, parole. The Innocence Project in the, what's the Innocence Project? Innocence Project is attorneys from New York and uh, the Exoneration Clinic is attorneys from Chicago and Notre Dame. They came together in. Form asked my attorneys to present me in parole hearing, and they released me from parole, but I'm being on parole stipulations.
I probably got the hardest parole stipulations out here. They're unconstitutional. Yeah. According to Indiana law, I'm, I'm the only parolee that's out here that's allowed to wear a body camera, you know, because the last parole officer I had, he tried to do some extra stuff to me, like try to spend the night at my home and try to do, uh, make sexual proposals and stuff.
So they fired him and, uh, I filed a restraining order against him. The restrictions or what? Oh, they're unconstitutional. Yeah, actually, yeah. Are they called restrict? What would they like the terms? Mm-hmm. The, like what are, like, what are some things that like, uh, like, uh, being in a, a relationship with a woman, I gotta get approval to go on a date to like hold a hand to tell a person I love them.
I gotta it feel like. That's against my parole. Yeah. Um, and I can, because here's the thing is like, uh, you know, the meet the artist gala, uh, yeah. The premier, like African American art, you know, exhibit in Indianapolis, uh, you know, Vernon was in Invite. Vernon had pieces there, but he couldn't go there at the library 'cause to the library because there could be children in the vicinity.
Yeah. I'm not allowed to. So everybody who gets out, you know, has like stipulations, you know, drinking, stuff like that. But he's got like an additional 35 and many of them have to do with minors, even though his alleged crime had nothing to do with the minor. So that's that. There's a, there's a 2014 court case in Indiana Supreme Court, Bleeke v. Lemmon, which says that's unconstitutional.
He should be able, he should be able to be, be able to be around, uh, children Right. Without any car, uh, you know, without violating his, his parole. Right. But he can't even walk by a, a library or a park where children are known to play Congregate. Yeah, congregate. They denied him, uh, going to visit his lawyers in Chicago because it was gonna be at a park.
They denied him the right to go to church. He had to have a pastor, Dell Howard come in and fight for him to go to church. 'cause there could be kids there. There's not like a reason as to like what they say as to why they don't have to say anything. The reason is they're afraid of what this man's like, like the, what the case will reveal.
And I think they're afraid of his power to heal our community. They're trying to protect themselves. It's a, I was speaking on you before, like it's a thing called a blue code of silence. Like whenever he was, I was telling her. To pull it up or whatever, but it's, they try to stop me from writing children books, you know, but I know how valuable these books is.
Like, I know what, I know how necessary our youth is, you know, that's like the key, you know? But, uh, yeah, that's one of the major things, man. That's like, I, I never touched my grandson. I never, you know, and I got a situation now where I won't speak too much on it, but, uh, I had a, a child inside of prison. You had a child inside of prison?
Inside of prison, yeah. Because you were, you weren't expecting, you had an expecting mother while when you went in? No, this, my child is 16, another child. So this is in 2007, 2008. Well, he's incarcerated, af you know, been incarcerated for nine years. 10 years. Yeah. I mean, we could. There's a lot. Yeah, for sure.
That's why I say it's a lot. We probably do a part too, man. Yeah, right. Because we got, like, right now, even in my case, the evidence, they saying, uh, the evidence room burnt up. So it's like how I'm fighting some, like, I'm, I'm like, when did the evidence room burn up? What's the, if you had an overall message of the story of Vernon Bateman Yeah.
That you wanted people to know about, what would that be? I really want it to be a law of Vernon T. Bateman law. That it won't be another 18-year-old coming inside a prison and have to fight for its life without no DNA, without no just being a, a description of being, uh, profiled. You know, that's what I really want it to be a loss.
So it won't be, but it's so many people that is fighting still and really, like when I first got. Locked up and I was fighting and fighting. You know, I called The Maury Show for a DNA test 'cause that's what I was looking at thinking He, and they was telling me, no, you need to connect with the Innocence Project or something like that.
You know? That's because I didn't have the knowledge to know where the, I'm just thinking DNA tests and DNA tests, you know? So I called The Maury Show to try to get help, you know? What does the road to getting exonerated look like? It's bright now. What has to happen for that to happen for you? Actually what you're doing right now is so major for me.
Yeah. To you giving me a voice, you know? 'cause some people see me and even though I'm smiling, that's because I've been through a lot, you know, I've been through a lot. So I saw death in there. I saw everything. You could see I, I saw it in there. Yeah. I just given the world this part of me and the best part of the best version of Vernon T. Bateman that you could get.
That's what I'm trying to, yeah. What do you hope your art makes people feel when they see it? Just encouraging man to know that like, perseverance is like the backbone of everything. Don't give up. Even though it look like it's all is all. You could give up. Don't give up. I did it with nothing, man.
Probably if I didn't have a paint brush or nothing, I probably would've did it in blood, you know? That's powerful. If I didn't have a paintbrush, I would've done in blood. It's true. The final thing I, I think that I'm, that I wanna talk about, there's a lot of gray in whether it's, you know, the people that are incarcerated that are innocent and the people that are guilty, and the people that are like bad and good and God fearing and not God like that is, there's a lot of, and then similar, I know, um, Derek, uh, just from hearing kind of your sentiment and like your opinion like.
Then on the other side, it's like not every person is, uh, out to, for a family vendetta, that's like a prosecutor, that's an attorney or that's a whatever, for sure. And so I feel like a lot of this world that we live in gets painted in white and black and it's this or it's that. It's innocent, it's guilty, it's good, bad.
What would you talk about to people on all sides of all of all these, whether it's political, whether it's race, whether it's I speak on that too. Yeah, yeah. I speak on the internet. I'm gonna just say, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna read this to you because you said that what you said. Yeah. It's called deliberate indifference.
If I was to rob a bank and I get, or me and you was to rob Bank, you get, uh, two years and they give me 200 years. They deliberately gave me 200 years because of our indifferences. Okay. And that was, so it's a law called deliberate indifference. You gotta give me a. Yeah. Justice as you give the next person, you know?
Yeah. And I said deliberate indifference. Uh, we all just witnessed a generation that we j we all just witnessed a generation that chose to sacrifice their lives through a airborne pandemic and march over the mercy of the innocence. Sweet baby Justice. I meant just us deliberate, indifferent. Speaking for the gray, what's the difference from black and white?
What is the difference in Republican and Democrat? What is the difference between Crips and Bloods? What is the difference from superior supremacists and terrorists? I hope and pray that God used me as he used the people in heaven above the ones who made us all forget about the difference and marched together as one to stand against our differences.
I was just meaning like what you, it just brought me back to, like you said, we speaking for the gray. Like what's the, it's a lot of gray and the gray is the difference. The gray is like, if we could put our differences aside and just see the principle of things, you know, the morals of things. Yeah. I think that's a, um, an interesting piece of getting to host the show is I get to sit in, um, in conversations like this and hear people talk about their life experiences that's far different from mine.
Yeah. Whether it's your story or the story of professional athletes or like just people that grew up in different ways from all around the world that have now somehow landed in the great state of Indiana. If there's one thing, just from listening to this story, uh, as I reflect on what you've taught me in the last 60, 75 minutes is.
Creating the space to listen uhhuh and to be curious. Even when, I mean, I, I won't lie, like there are a lot of these questions that I was going to, that I don't really know how to phrase. Just say in a way, you know, like, we made it through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was like, oh man. Like, I didn't grow up. Like you grow up.
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know what Disrespectful or disrespectful. Yeah. But I really care about what you saying. Yeah. Like, even when a person read my book, I wanna, I, I wonder what they see or what they feel. Well, you know, and it would be so easy. Like there might have been questions in the back of your head, you're like, how the hell is this guy asking this question?
Like, because that's what you've seen. That's your life, that's how you grew up. But I think that the level of patience and understanding that you showed when, and I'm out here asking like, yeah, fuck. Like, I don't know, like, I don't know if this is gonna be the wrong thing to ask, like, all those things. Um, it's a hard, that's a hard conversation.
Like, I'll be honest, like at the end of this, I'm like. I didn't want, it was just a challenging You didn't wanna rubbing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a challenge. And I would encourage people to have more conversations like that. And on both sides of the coin, be willing to, um, ask where you're being guided. Like ask the questions that, that I have, that I'm sure listeners have and for, for people on your side, um, that are, that might have interesting backgrounds.
Yeah. To be slow to anger or blow that off because people grew up different than everyone. Yeah. And like no one's, no two stories are the same. Right. Yeah. And, you know, you know, that's why I choose art because it's a universal language. Yeah. Like hunger. It's a universal language. Laughter, it's a universal language.
Yeah. Pain is a universal language. Music, you know? Yeah. These universal languages. So that's why like I art and when I started, wrote my first book, people were like, I you go make it black characters, white characters, I use insects. So to get the principles and morals out. I use insects that you still I know.
You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And like you can relate. Well, no matter where you are in the world, you can relate to a bug's life. You know, like Yeah. It's, it's a bug's life. Like to just break the burial of the, the versus it being like, uh, versus it being for people that grew up in rural Indiana. Right. Or versus it being for people who grew up in the projects in Gary.
Yeah, yeah. You know, like everyone can put themselves in who's, is the main character a caterpillar? Yeah, Modesty. Even like, you know, the Koreans in Japan. Um, yeah. We're talking about how to get him free and I, if I can say a couple of words about that. Yeah. Um, in addition to, you know, the things that Vernon's taught me, it's not just about his experiences, but it's about like academic, like history.
He's taught me. You know, uh, I walked into his house one time and he was like, do you know the real Tarzan? And I was like, what? Yeah. And he was like, no. The real Tarzan. Yeah. Ota Benga from the Congo. And he taught me all about it. And there's a connection. I was bring so much art here when I was like, I'm gonna say, yeah, well, but there's a connection because like my grandfather had a, uh, world record in swimming and he beat Tarzan's, like the guy who played Tarzan's record.
So they called him new man to beat Tarzan. So I was like, I'm like, Dan, this dude sees about, about my own family and this academic history. And then I think that though, the key thing is that the, the juries and the judges, right, they respond to the power of the people, the pressure of the people, right? If nobody knows about a case, they can decide whatever they want in the quiet.
But if you bring it to light, and that's all Vernon's been trying to do. Yeah. Right. And that's what also I learned from him is like, look it like. You know, if we don't, you know, we gotta be strategic about it. But if the people are there and they're aware of it, then they're gonna be watching and people will know that they're watching.
Yeah. You know, and so we also have a petition@freevernon.org. Sign it. Every single signature counts. For real. Yeah. Because we gotta show that he's gotta a broad base to support and we gotta like just manifest it, you know? And the books made their way to Tokyo. The Koreans in Japan. Yeah. They, they can relate to it off my, uh, website.
I don't think you saw the website. baby22gunsafetyllc.com. And they now use the, the school, the books, uh, for their English language curriculum. Vernon T. Bateman books. No way. So we're, we're doing do fundraising, so when we go back in January, we can bring more books there. I'm kind of saying this in general to listeners out there.
It's good to put yourself in situations that are different and that are, I mean, at times like, might stretch you in places and make you think different ways and ask different questions. Mm-hmm. Um, and not just always take, uh, an easy route out. Uh, learning about growing up in the projects of Gary. Yeah. I had never talked to anyone.
I've lived in Indiana. I am the self, uh, proclaimed Indiana guy. I have never talked to anyone who grew up in Gary, Indiana until today. Oh my. So hearing your story about, uh, how you grew up, how life was different there, um, and about what you're doing today. I think this is a, an incredible story of Yeah.
You talk about forgiveness. Yeah. You talk about. You resilience not giving up. Um, you talk about, I mean yeah. The guy that you knew that got sentenced for 20 years and ended his life. Yeah. I think that it takes a lot of courage to keep going and keep fighting and, you know, and, and trying to spread this positive message through your books and through your art.
Not being, not being bitter, just being better than a situation, but not on a t-shirt, not being bitter, just getting better, man. Mm-hmm. I really appreciated this show and I'm really excited to go out. Uh, for those that are watching, we're gonna go out and we're gonna see a little bit of, uh, the art that you brought for us to see.
Cool. Dope. Cool. Alright, so take me through This is, this is the beginning of art for you. Right here is, uh, he walking with a dog leach with shackles on his ankles and a spit bag over his head, and he's going to the shower. Here is a guy that was trying to commit suicide. So he was spelling help in blood.
He was spelling help on his window. This was another guy, this was the same guy and the nurse giving him his medicine. And this was another guy that's on his way to the shower by the prison guards. It just, you gotta have shackles on. Yeah. And every time you come out, you gotta have shackles on you. Wow.
And this was before, so you just had one pencil. This was a rubber ink pen. A rubber ink pen. Yeah. So then how do you, how do you end up getting crayons? Crayons. This guy right here, he swallowed a pack of batteries and they pumped his stomach. They took him out to the hospital and pumped his stomach. And they told him, if you be good, we'll let you color these, use these crayons to color while you here.
And after the surgery they, he used them in color, but he smuggled them back. And I gave him my breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a month. You gave him your breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a month to get a pack of crayons? Yeah. What is this contraption that we have here? How did you get, it's called a Cadillac.
So his side, his door is under my door is, is I can look out my door and see him and his cell is right here. So he, we made a string using, uh, probably a piece of the blanket and a end of the toothpaste that you see right here. Mm-hmm. And we, that way it'll slide and I could slide him my sandwich and he could slide me the crayons.
What. Yeah. Through the door. How did you guys negotiate the terms of this agreement of for crayons for 30 days of food? He knew that I was talking about art while I was back there, but I had no art supplies. Yeah. You know, only thing I got is this, so that's why I'm using, that's what you see all this is through this using this ink pen to draw all of this.
Yeah. And that's was, I was praying, um, before I got here that I knew what I was gonna come out to do with gun violence and my mascot and everything and yeah. To do a gun violence play and everything. Yeah. And donate and stuff. What was the idea? The idea was first the book and then the board game and turn it into virtual reality, the board game.
Oh, so that's what that was in the hole though. So you end up getting crayons. Is that, did that lead you to one of your hunger strike? I mean, you don't get breakfast, lunch, or dinner for. A month. Yeah. Most of the time I'll do a hunger strike to let people let my family know that I'm on in lockup. 'cause I get snatched from lockup and they're like, what did he on lockup for?
Now? What did he do? Yeah. And most of the time it just be having dudes doing goals. You gotta think every day is the same. Yeah. You know? Okay. So then you end up here. So now prisoners drinking coffee, watching tv. Uh, one guy got put out the dorm, he taken his mattress. And, uh, that's, and that's, that's, and this was, you made this on tv?
Yeah. Inside of prison. Inside of prison. You, they had like, is this like watercolor or is this No, this paint. This acrylic. Acrylic, yeah. Acrylic on canvas. Okay. Yep. So how'd you learn? You just like taught yourself how to do this? Yeah. No way. The first painting I've done since I got out of this prison, I visualize holding my grandson 'cause I never had the opportunity because of the stipulations to the right to touch my grandson.
Yeah. So, and it's like a patio, me standing on the patio and this is where I live, my apartment, man. It's wild. Yeah. This is, uh, the evolution of your art. This show is made possible by our friends up at Sweetwater. Whether you're looking to start a podcast or take your content to the next level, click the link in the description to see all my gear recommendations at Sweetwater.
If you want a behind the scenes look at everything we're doing across the state. Make sure you follow me on Instagram and TikTok at Nate Spangle. Thank you so much for listening and being a part of what makes the Hoosier State great. We'll see you next time here on Get IN.
