Inside the Indianapolis Zoo with Dr. Robert Shumaker

we acquired the last chimpanzee that was in Puerto Rico the most intelligent chimpanzees in the United States reside in the Indianapolis Zoo we can Inspire those one and A4 million we're doing something pretty fabulous and what were the other Blockbusters from then till now from South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between this is get in the show focused on the hooer state and the incredible stories happening here today I'm Nate spangle founder of G Indiana and I will be your host for today's conversation today I'm joined by Dr Robert Shoemaker president and CEO of the Indianapolis Zoo a distinguished evolutionary biologist renowned for his expertise in primate behavior and cognition his career spans Decades of groundbreaking work from the Smithsonian National Zoo to the great ape trust and now leading the Indianapolis Zoo in its conservation efforts today we're going to be talking about the growth of the Indianapolis Zoo over the past few decades the Indianapolis prize and what it means to have such a a prestigious National Global award board based right here in Indianapolis and what's coming down the pipeline for the zoo what to expect and we'll end with a little zuil round up uh Robert welcome to get in that is such a great intro thank you so much I'm so pleased to be here I am super excited for this one I just know the zoo is doing some incredible things I do I think on social media the way that I see the zoo the most is for sure on zuban so I'm excited to round up there but I think before we get into all the ins and outs of the zoo talking about your experience coming from De Moine Iowa to Indianapolis and when you were compar comparing and contrasting what it was like in De Moine versus Indianapolis and what was appealing about coming here well actually I I started my career in Washington DC and as you mentioned worked at the National Zoo for about 20 years and so I'm originally from the national uh sorry the Washington DC area wow that was a big difference going from Washington DC to De Moine but I loved it I mean DC is kind of what everybody thinks I mean it's it's busy it's congested it's hectic there's unbelievable opportunity unbelievable Global Perspective and I moved to De Mo Iowa which is at the time really kind of the opposite of that not congested an absolutely fantastic place to live wonderful quality of life um and I really welcomed that and then I had the opportunity to come here to Indianapolis and the amazing thing for me is Indianapolis has the best of both of those places I think it has the best that has to offer and the best that De Moine has to offer meaning a Global Perspective tremendous opportunity but a really small town feel a a tremendous quality of life to me it's just it's just been a perfect Community for me and my family we love it here I think we hear that a lot but I always love having uh I love having the lifelong hooers that have you know grown up in Indiana Indianapolis that just love the place but it's always great to have guests on that have a different perspective yeah right that have seen different things from DC to De Moine I mean that that's definitely a big transition cuz that was in what year did you go from DC to De Moine was that 2003 I think 2002 200 and how did you feel about that like going from busy hustle bustle of Washington DC to the Midwest it was a difficult time because the country had just experienced 911 uh about 18 months before that and living in DC after 9/11 was dramatically different than before 911 in my lifetime um you know every day it was normal to drive by the Pentagon the Washington Monument the White House that that was just nor that's normal if you live there but for the first time in my life I would drive by and there were armored vehicles in front of those places people with weapons protecting the places it it was a a a shocking time so I also had recently been married and and my son was only 18 months old at the time and I think my wife and I were just we were ready to move it it was kind of a just a difficult moment for the country and and I think even kind of Amplified in the DC area of course for New York and so on so we really welcomed it and we moved to De Mo and it was literally like just relief I mean it was comfortable people were wonderful uh the community was beautiful had you been to Iowa before never so no I I'd never been there I I think I maybe I went there once to meet the people that were hiring me or something but no I had had never lived there of course and had never spent time there when I lived there and I could say it CU I was living there and I loved it we lived there seven years and and we and we used to love say um uh man it's a great place to live but a lously place to visit you know there just wasn't a whole lot to do when you came as a visitor now this was you know this is a number of years ago but but a fantastic quality of life so it was it was just a great place to have our kids when they were younger and we lived there for 7 years and uh it was a great time to move on and and come to Indianapolis after and what was so appealing about the Indianapolis job I had done some Consulting for the Indianapolis Zoo when I lived in De Mo what was super appealing is that it was a zoo that was poised for growth and it was certainly a very good zoo uh but it it was poised to make a big impact on the community and and I think regionally nationally and and internationally and I was very excited to join an organization that was already established but was ready to really accelerate really change its trajectory in terms of what it was doing um and that was that was um irresistible to me well give me a size or or just give me some details about the size or the scope or the amount of visitors that the Indianapolis Zoo was was attracting in 2010 let's see when I arrived in 2010 maybe a million visitors a year which is not insignificant no no no not at all it's at at the time I I should back up up and say that the Indianapolis Zoo is accredited by the Association of zoos and Aquariums that is the highest standard that a zoo or aquarium can reach anywhere in the world and there's about give or take about 250 institutions that meet that mostly in North America not all some are outside of North America too indianapolis's always been accredited um by AA Association of zoos and Aquariums but uh we were like considered like a midsize zoo and that's based on your number of acres and your revenue and your number of visitors and so on so on so on it was a good mid-range Zoo like a million dollarss sorry a million visitors uh a year and that was pretty good but but sometimes maybe dipping slightly below a million in its past but but comfortably around a million so then as the zoo started to accelerate as it started to grow uh and I think that again had started in 2010 really totally new plateau in 2014 which I'll get back to um but but we were seeing this nice trajectory in terms of growth uh when we got to 2014 we opened the um Simon Scott International orangutan Center that was what really changed everything in terms of our growth we went from a a zoo that had no great apes to a zoo that had the largest um orangutan facility anywhere in Aza um an absolutely uh spectacular exhibit still is still still the best anywhere for orangutans um and that changed everything that took us up to almost one in a quarter million visitors so an increase one exhibit one exhibit helps yeah it did oh my gosh and that's and that's and I would say That's Not Unusual for zoos if if you do that one and and in you know in our um vocabulary we call it a blockbuster you know a lot of a lot of museums will say that theme parks will say that oh you had a blockbuster exhibit so we opened that Blockbuster exhibit but it really changed our zoo in terms of how people saw it so we we became a leader rather than a good local zoo we became a leading zoo in the country um and everything we've done since 2014 has continued to accelerate that so we now comfortably come in um around 1.

2 million visitors a year it fluctuates a little bit our uh Revenue has increased our operating budget has increased our influence has increased uh really in every way um and so when I came in 2010 we were a good local zoo we became I think an important Regional or National Zoo with the opening of the orangutan facility today I I would say all of that is still true but now we have international influence largely through um certainly through our exhibitory through our programming at the zoo but through our conservation efforts now that has grown exponentially since 2010 so if I look in the last 15 years at least that's of course my perspective because that's how long I've been there um we've we've gone from a good solid local Zoo AA called it a mediumsized zoo now um for Aza we're classified as extra-large that that doesn't extra large that doesn't mean we've increased the footprint of the zoo although we've added some other space for example for parking and so on but but the zoo is landlocked um but it's really our our influence our Revenue our visitors we fall into that large extra- large category now I I think we're we're easily one of the very best zoos in the United States without question is there like an award or a ranking is there like the zooies like the awards that the award I love that the zooies there if not if anyone from the AA is listening to this let's let's talk about hosting the zooies next year there there is not every single Zoo has something distinctive uh there's no one zoo I I don't believe I don't think there's one zoo that can say oh we have the best of everything or we're the number one in everything no no Zoo can say that and if they do I you shouldn't believe them but I think there are things about individual zoos where we can say wow that's really good or wow that's really extraordinary so you know I I look at what we're doing at Indianapolis certainly what we did with the rangit Tans our elephant program our dolphin program a number of our our MAA program now uh recently our chimpanzee program uh and facilities and then all of our conservation efforts that we've invested in that are just growing those are things that are super super distinctive about us that that really have given us um the kind of stature we we absolutely we didn't have this kind of stature five years ago never mind 15 years ago well let's talk about The Balancing Act of the spectacle of a zoo right where you know you bring your kids and you or anyone and you want to see all the animals and then the other side of that is conservation and I guess when I think of it right as I I don't have a background in anything animalistic at all so when I think of a zoo I think of it as an attraction vers uh the conservation side I mean you just said that one of the the key factors that have have put you on a national stage is your conservation efforts right so let's talk about that Balancing Act and and how you think about that sure yeah it's a great question the the first thing that I would say about that is you know again I I mentioned that that round number about 250 accredited Jews and aquariums in the United States one of the things that I really learned about that and this has been I think a fairly recent insight for me every single one of those institutions is unique the things I know about my zoo or the things I understand about my Zoo those are not necessarily transferable to any other Zeus or many other zoos and I think my colleagues would say the same thing about their institutions so some of the things that are unique about the Indianapolis Zoo we are the largest accredited zoo in the United States that that receives no public money so many many many zoos receive money from you know a city or a county or a bond or a levy or something like that we we don't receive any of that the National Zoo in Washington DC where I grew up where I worked for a long time um they receive all the majority of their money from the federal government those that's from tax dollars that's the only zoo in the country like that so we don't receive any of that so we are 100% responsible for our own operating budget yeah we're a for-profit entity right we're not for profit but we have to earn all our money yeah okay sense yep so and we do that in in in really two big ways it's what we call in park spending that's when people come and buy a ticket or a membership or go to the gift shop or buy a drink or lunch or whatever all that provides Revenue to the zoo and then the other big issues for us are all of our special events like zuil which I know we'll get back to um and philanthropy people are very generous personally in providing maybe an annual gift or if we have um a capital campaign like for chimpanzees people are interested in donating to that if you had to break that down like what percent of the zoo is funded by like the business principles of it versus philanthropy yep amazingly year after year those percentages stay pretty consistent it's about 2/3 from uh in park spending and the other third is a combination of philan anthropy and special events and by the way and this is all public information our um annual operating budget hovers around $40 million so we have to earn about $40 million a year and 2third of that if I'm doing quick back of the napkin math right two-thirds of that comes from people going in and buying memberships and spending and that's a pretty significant amount of the philanthropy side too I would say philanth we have a great philanthropy Department great great folks that do that and a great Community to live in so that that's a very philanthropic community so to your question how do you balance all that the way it works in my mind is that the success of the zoo is the economic engine that allows us to do everything else so our heart and soul is right here in Indianapolis in our local community we we love our local community I think we understand our importance in the local community we're a we're a tradition for for families for generations to come and enjoy our Zoo um but but we also know that our commitment to the community and their commitment to us which we really acknowledge and appreciate by the way that's what allows us to do everything else we do regionally nationally and internationally and we do a lot that's the balance for us and and when you mention there's nothing at all wrong I I think in my own career I used to avoid talking about zoos as an attraction I don't know I I just maybe I just wanted to philosophically be more pure about I was going to say is that from your background you know coming up working with the animal side of it not necessarily like the visitor and attraction side I think that's true I mean I always like doing public education through my whole career I always liked interacting with visitors I always love that side of it it probably was formed a little bit by being part of the National Zoo as part of the Smithsonian you know at least when I was there now that was more than 20 years ago now but it certainly wasn't visitor Focus the way visitor focus at the Indianapolis if your if your zoo is 100% funded by government dollars so you don't need to worry about how many like 10 people could come through or 10 million people could come through and you're going to get the same amount of money it's not the same when the own has put on the zoo to create a really good product and then the better your product is the more money you'll have for the conservation efforts right you're 100% correct then it's like hey the better the better customer experience we have the better else we're going to have yeah you're 100% right and I think that was part of the mindset of like Museum Smithsonian it was it was a little bit well not a little was a lot different perspective I'm not saying wrong just different but but here I embrace the idea that we're an attraction I embrace the idea I love the idea that people want to come visit that's what we should be doing we should be excited about that and it works so now almost 1 and A4 1.

2 to 1 and a qu million people a year come through our front gate and that is fantastic we love that now here's the the thing which I can say we attract more visitors in a year than all of the major sporting events in Indianapolis combined wait it's true it's true you attract more visitors through the zoo than Pacers Colts fever Indians Indie 500 combined combined because think think of those are hugely successful but think of how many games there are at any of those in a year that are home games think of you know Indie 500s one day those are phenomenal wonderful things let's do the let's do some public math here so you think I think it's 70,000 in Lucas Oil I I can't help you with the math individually I I see that I can see cuz it's 1. 2 something I think one and a quarter million people a year one and a quarter yeah it's probably pretty close it's huge I mean but you think of the impact on Sports in our community which is massive I mean those are phenomenal incredible organizations and what they do for our community they're incredible and then you combine all that and and we have more than that many visitors in a year it's incredible it's incredible so you know we take the power of that and we want people to come to the zoo and have an unforgettable experience we we want every visitor to be be changed in some way when they have visit a visit at the zoo that's our that's one of our aspirations so that means on the broadest level even though we're an attraction we have a million and a quarter people who are ready willing interested and able to walk away with something fantastic so we want to provide that we want to provide that with our animal experiences with the educational content we provide with the interactions with staff with our programming that's that's the largest number of people reach directly in terms of our mission which is to protect nature and inspire people to care for our world so if we can Inspire those one and a quarter million or even most of them we're doing something pretty fabulous and then we can narrow we we can say well we do that in all other kinds of ways that are more specific and more focused but but that's the broadest reach we have so while I think of ourselves as as an attraction as a public institution as a um one of the found in Indianapolis that is all true but the impact we can have with all those people is absolutely humbling actually that is it's a privilege to be able to do that I guess I I knew that the zoo was super super popular a staple within the city I guess I didn't know by the Numbers how big of an impact it made huge well when you're thinking over the last 15 years what were these big so that first Milestone you said was the orangan exhibit that look we had all kinds of good things every year by the way because of our model being you know know not getting public money we have something new every single year that's not true for every zoo or aquarium but we have a new exhibit every single year so we had lots of when I came in 2010 that was the year we opened the cheetah exhibit which is fantastic and so we um have something new every single year the first Blockbuster since I've been here was uh the orangutan exhibit and what were the other Blockbusters from then till now it's been every 10 years so we opened the orangutan facility 2014 and the chimp py facility this year exactly 10 years later how much of that cuz your background is with orangutans right orangutans but but all primates primates like how how much of that uh is influenced from the top right with your your interest there of like oh these are our two Blockbusters I think a lot right the reason I was recruited was um to build the orangutan facility so the the decision had already been made to build it but then they needed somebody to do that for them so I was brought in for that and of course I didn't come in as a CEO I came in managing all the animal departments but the first big project that I was involved in when I arrived was well hey we need you to build this orangutan facility so so that's what we did so designed that worked with great local Architect by the way uh bdmd Jonathan hes and uh they did the an incredible design for us with uh the orangutan facility it's the same firm that we hired to do the chimpan Z facility okay take me through the process of creating an exhibit yeah how much of it is like the architecture designing the space versus like the animals versus the staff like what all goes into that yeah it's such a good question of course it depends on the exhibit some are a lot more complex than others let's put it that way it depends on the species so if you have a species that is easy in terms of the habitat they live in they don't need a very complicated space like think of giraffes for example we haven't built a new giraffe exhibit since I've been here but you know giraffes need a large outdoor area they're fairly easy to contain uh the an indoor space is pretty straightforward for them so it's not in fact if you get too complicated it it doesn't work well for the giraffes they they need a you know a lot of flat space they need that's right so that that can be pretty um straightforward by comparison with something like dolphins for example so you got to be really serious about water quality depth air quality so so many important things that you have to think about that are way more complicated in terms of water filtration water quality Air Quality Lighting that that's a much more complicated kind of thing so when you get to something like I I could talk about chimpanzees because that's our most recent facility this is the penny and jock Fortune International chimpanzee complex just opened this past may we have 21 chimpanzees the largest community of chimpanzees at any zoo in the United States um absolutely fantastic really distinctive for Indianapolis that started in December of 2019 and so for our Zoo here's how it works um we had to get the permission of our board permission and approval of our board to launch a capital campaign to fund that project and at the same time begin design of that project knowing the money is just going to be that we're going to find the money well right the largest uh the largest Capital campaign in our history which is $53 million now that's a big number for us at the Indianapolis Zoo that's not a big number for like a zoo in Chicago or New York or LA or Miami that or Texas you know those those are not big numbers just depends on the community one of those other big differences and the costs are less for us too think of the difference of construction cost for us compared to even Chicago which is nearby way more expensive in Chicago even with you guys being landlocked you know like that's another piece where you think about like the land or figuring how to position that like that has to be expensive that can be very expensive for for this case with um the chimpanze facility um it was quite amazing because we did something very different which I'll get back to answering your question instead of building one big building with an outdoor space attached to it obviously in in our climate chimp need an indoor space to go into in the winter we didn't we built multiple smaller indoor spaces through about 2third of the zoo and connected all of those with an enclosed trail system that is much more appropriate for chimpanzees they like to they have a a a Fusion Vision Society where the the whole Community um comes together occasionally but most of the time they divide up into smaller groups and go travel hang out uh come back together once in a while so lots of different spaces all connected different features in all those spaces those that's what works best for chimpanzees so like one little click runs like this part of the playground that's exactly right and the members in in those little social groups can change during the day or from day to day or whatever year like Johnny chimp you can't hang out with this anymore like you got to get going beat it that's that's exactly it that I I wish we had a chimpanzee named Johnny that's a great name for chimpanzee oh absolutely right but we have others named like Arthur and Billy and so on so we need a Johnny in there there so you're right so that that started in 2019 and so we started raising the money we started doing the design um and then the construction was very elaborate because it was all throughout the zoo uh our visitors were very patient with us while we disrupted some of the normal Pathways and so on so over the course of that fiveyear campaign how much of your time is focused on the product like you know getting it all set up and designed the capital campaign right going out sitting in there raising the money talking to the donors or visualizing the experience for guests how do you divide time between those two yeah such a good question this was an enormous effort on the part of all the departments in the zoo and a number of the members of our board so lots of different departments are working on this so if you if you looked at our our fundraising Department that was almost full-time for some of the people in the fundraising department for the people in the animal Department there are now there were people are spending full time working on acquiring the chimpanzees transporting the chimpanzees taking care of the chimpanze how do you acquire a chimpanzee chimpanzees are different than all the other types of gr Apes in the United States at least today you can find chimpanzees in a whole variety of settings you can find them in zoos that are accredited you can find them in unaccredited zoos you can find them in private ownership you can find them in entertainment and you can find them in former biomedical facilities where they're not involved in testing anymore but they still living there and you can find them in sanctuaries they're all over the place in the in the US there have always been more chimpanzees in the United States than any other type of great ape and they have been used in a whole variety of ways compared to other great apes and honestly that has not been beneficial for chimpanzees for example chimpanzees in entertainment chimpanzees in private ownership chimpanzees in biomedical research that that may have benefited humans but it certainly didn't benefit the chimpanzees so what we did is we looked around and we found out there were almost no chimpanzees available in the accredited Zoo Community there were a lot of stable groupings stable communities nobody really needed to place their chimpanzees we had an unexpected event where one Zoo needed to place three females so those were the first three we took that was several years ago and we like well we better take them we'd love to have them that so did you just like toss them not that's a really bad way to say but do you just like put them in a different exhibit or something until you're ready open it look it's a great question I forget and I'm glad you're I'm glad you're asking those questions because I forget that I have a very unusual career this is this is odd to a lot of to me it it's incredible it's a dream for me too but I'll tell you I forget that this is not typical for most people right so what luckily we had a facility at the zoo that was off exhibit not where people could see it and that's where some of the orangutans lived before we opened the orangutan facility we had built it for them so it had been used for a few other things but it wasn't it was only a few years old still worked great kind of like a holding like hey wait here until we get your house built it was a great outdoor space and one a a single outdoor space and then a building attached that had several other rooms in there so good indoor really nice outdoor um and it was great for a small number of chimpanzees it was very traditional in terms of a design very traditional what a lot of other Zoo have actually and again what we built was actually something quite different so we said well shoot we have that facility we can take those three females let's do that and then next call there was a sanctuary in California that went bankrupt and they had some chimpanzees and they said well can you take another chimpanze that was Bill when you take it are you purchasing it or they like never purchased so we don't purchase any of the animals at the zoo there's there's one there's I can tell you one exception every year when we have our our butterflies in our um Conservatory that's a seasonal thing uh you know most butterflies don't live very long naturally they live you know a few weeks maybe or a couple months uh there are people who are butterfly farmers and uh they send us the the butterflies and the cocoons uh and they're breeding them and we do buy those uh and then uh those hatch out uh spend their whole lives in our Conservatory which are little short little LIF fans and then that's it but otherwise no we don't that traditional for for every Zoo like you don't have to like just trade them that is very true for accredited zoos for zoos within AA that's one of the huge benefits is that we all work together so even if it comes from a private owner like you don't have to buy it from them we we don't that I mean some private owners might want that but but we don't so with chimpanzees for example that was never an option we were going to consider and and we took and now why is that I'm just curious right I thought it was more like oh we have to go buy enough you know animals for our thing no look it's a great question so when it comes to chimpanzees you know there's some really big ethical concerns of chimpanzees being in a situation where people breed them and sell them that still exists in the United States and it's not illegal to own a chimpanzee in Indiana it it varies from state to state so a private individual can own a chimp Indian you can own multiple chimp I don't even know where you would go to be like yeah I'm looking who's got a chimpanzee guy there there are there are a few breeders left in the United States and um you'd need about $100,000 to buy chimpan um so the the whole it's usually an infant so you got to imagine well what happens you know a female that that has that baby and then that baby's taken from the female that's really hard on the female of course that's her baby uh and it's really hard on the Infant not to be raised with other chimpanzees and then what happens as that chimpanzee grows in mates living in a household's going to become more and more difficult very quickly so a lot of the chimpanzees and private ownership don't have good endings doesn't lead to a good quality of life and here's the kind of the big thing that I would say is a lone chimpanzee meaning a chimpanzee alone is not a chimpanzee that chimpanzees are intensely intensely social they crave being around other chimpanzees they absolutely require it when you have a chimpanzee that has never seen another chimpanzee or never lived with another chimpanzee that can have devastating consequences long term oh so for us we we don't want to say to someone well I know you bought that chimpanzee out from a a private breeder yeah let us buy it from you because basically then we're perpetuating that industry and that trade so we don't want to do that no so we actually not only we don't want to we won't yeah so cuz then it's like oh the breeder still has more buyers they can sell and they they raise 10 chimpz and there's a million bucks buy another one and then or when it gets older somebody buy it from me no we just we we want that trade to end we want that to stop so we did take probably the most dramatic example we we took a uh at the time he was 8 years old 8-year-old chimpanzee that was owned by a private individual who realized it was not the right thing and and she said she called me and she said would you take him so we did is that hard to take a chimp that has never seen a human or sorry never seen its own kind in eight years and introduced them into like this new Society it is hard for that chimpanzee that's for sure and it's devastatingly hard can be devastatingly hard for the person who owned that chimpanzee because it's they they it they've had it like their child so it can be devastatingly difficult in all kinds of ways and and in that in that particular case I would say I have the greatest dis respect for the person who called me and and said would you take the chimpanzee cuz she just did an incredibly difficult thing because she knew it was in the best interest of of that chimpanzee and she remains a friend to the zoo she comes and visits so it has turned into a really a win-win all the way around and that that young chimpanzee is now unbelievably successful is living with right now I think he's been introduced to about 15 other chimpanzees he's living a great life living his best life as a chimpanzee right now and um that's because of that really selfless decision to give him up that's what I was going to say selfless right like it's like it's really cool you own a chimpanzee you're starting and then you kind of realize this isn't right that's right you know like they need to trade so we acquired uh a small number from private ownership a small number from entertainment a small number from sanctuaries a larger number that were retired from a biomedical facility and then a fairly small number from other ACA zoos and the most kind of dramatic situation is we acquired the last chimpanzee that was in Puerto Rico there was a a female chanine named Mara who was at a zoo in Puerto Rico that had been damaged in 2017 by a hurricane and the zoo had been closed ever since then no electricity um no visitors just kind of people were still taking care of her but the zoo was was essentially abandoned will never reopen and is now cleared out of all the animals so we sent our folks to Puerto Rico and they had to fly back with her and bring her here and she'd been alone there for about a year before she came here so uh uh that was a a dramatic dramatic story from a really another really difficult situation the two messages out of that are the incredible resilience of these great apes cuz now they're all socialized they're all doing great they're all fantastic but the other big piece is it's the story of chimpanzees in the United States and all of the the dramatically different situations they have been in and still are in the United States now a lot of that's changing they're not really in ENT entertainment anymore the way they used to be it used to be super common to have chimpanzees and entertainment that's extremely uncommon or or almost gone which is great and and by the way nobody should ever be supporting that don't buy things like greeting cards with chimpanzees and clothes on them or so on that all that all supports all of that don't don't nobody should be supporting that it's not in the best interest of chimpanzees yeah like you know the chimpanzees smoking a cigar right you know people grew up on that stuff thinking it was fantastic it's not for the chimpanzees you know things are rapidly changing but they're still surprising number of chimpanzees that are that are in private hands in the United States so they're the only great ape where that's true anymore and hopefully you know with like the rise of AI and stuff like that they'll never actually have to put a shirt on a chimpanzee ever again and you could just well I'll tell you what I mean I I grew up watching you know chimpanzees being used in entertainment yeah what's like the famous show lelot link yeah that was the original one L out link um and of course you know th those were all chimpanzees use occasionally in rangan in that also you know when I look back on it what were they they were being used as something for people to laugh at and frequently they were uh depicted as like you know comic relief they were degenerate people the idea something something to make fun of chimpanzees are are remarkable they have an inherent dignity value they're incredible incredible great apes with amazingly complicated mental abilities they deserve way better than that that change actually is really the result of of a couple the change of not seeing them in entertainment it's a couple things one um a lot of people uh refuse to support it any longer but the real difference was the original Planet of the Apes movie that was made a number of years ago that was all CGI there's not one real chimpan in that entire movie and I think what happened was the characters were so incred the chimpanze characters were so incredible they're so real so three-dimensional that people looked at that and then you thought about the horrible way chimpanzees were you know put in a shirt and a tie smoking a cigar like you mentioned and that was a joke and you think why would I want that look I can have the real thing a real character a real individual that's totally three-dimensional that CGI it it wasn't as if you're missing something look at what you gained by having essentially virtual chimpanzees they're so much better that why would we go backwards and have that nonsense we used to have so I I actually um love those movies I was Planet of the aps movies because they've just done an incredible thing for teaching people about great apes in a positive way so it's been fantastic all right folks Mother's Day is around the corner and I'm going to help you get prepared ditch the Amazon or Target candle and get Mom something from Warm Glow Candle Company they're based out in Centerville Indiana and they make some of the best candles I have ever smelled they have made my house smell unreal they aren't your average candle that burns out in 5 minutes oh no your mom is going to get tons of use out of this and every time she lights it she's going to be thinking about how you are her favorite I love the apple 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com to check out all their amazing scents now let's get back to the episode wow that's I mean that we just got uh like our master's degree in grade 8 we kind of went off the track I love that no this is what it's all about though I I love learning I'm just a curious individual and I love learning you know different stories and and like the learning about the great ape trade I guess I would say of like private owners I did not know that zoos did not purchase is that is that all accredited zoos are that like that I think that's that's super smart cuz when you do think of like show me the results right and you know you start to look at outcomes it's like if Zo are out there buying then that means that there is the need to you know have this the breeder the private breeders like you know look and I can't hide from our history you know every every profession has their history and there's some stuff to be proud of and some stuff that you regret there's no way to hide from the fact that that zoos historically historically were consumers of wildlife I I mean the the way zoos started and and this was you know more than a hundred years ago for some zoos but but every zoo in the United States in the 1950s 1960s maybe even into the 1970s they they were just getting animals right out of the wild it was a whole different philosophy a whole different set of Ethics that that would never happen now unless it's a occasionally there are injured sea lions that are rescued on the coast of California and by the time they're rehabilitated they're so familiar with people or maybe they have a a medical condition that that can't be resolved they can't be released so they can go live in an as a ASU of course but are they from the wild yes but no no one went out and and captured them for the zoo but the history of zoos right there used probably used to be people that would just go out into the jungle and like find you know trap a monkey and sell it that's exactly right that that's exactly what happened so that that's history though and I think it's good to talk about it because some people still think that's what we're doing of course we're not so we're not consumers of wildlife anymore in fact every accredited Zoo focuses on preserving populations of animals in the wild and their habitat so that you it's been almost a a complete and total shift in our profession and in our ethics and in our philosophy we're all about protecting wildlife in its native habitat rather than you know deep into our history we were consumers of wildlife well in that vein right with conservation at the the Forefront of zoos I mean we're home to the Indianapolis prize which is the largest conservation award or like the most prestigious it is the world's leading award for animal conservation and I'm so happy you ask about it because um I'm I'm so proud of it the Indianapolis prize this year in 20 well sorry this cycle in 2025 it will celebrate its 20th anniversary so we give the award out every two years so it's a two-year cycle so this will be the 10th uh award 10th time it's given out it is without question a a remarkable award what we do is we highlight the work of a single individual has to be a a person who has made a dramatic difference in in Saving a species or a group of species it has to be through their work so we don't give the award to an organization or a team of people or so it's for a single individual this person is obviously quite exceptional every single Indianapolis Prize recipient uh is a remarkable person who has done an absolutely incredible job at saving a species or a group of species and it's based right here in Indianapolis and it is better known internationally than it is in our city so but you know not a surprise that happens but it is a huge award uh the the winner of the Indianapolis prize gets a a cash Award of $250,000 um however I think that all of the media attention all of the lectures they do all of the attention that they gain as a result of winning the award is worth far more than that $250,000 now there's two other Awards associated with it we that's that's our the namesake for the award the Indianapolis prize we also just starting last cycle have have started a new award called the emerging conservationist award and that is for someone who is early in their career they have to be under 40 they are making incredible progress but you know being a conservationist is tough that is not an easy job job and it can be very discouraging so what we really wanted to do was Focus some attention on really promising individuals and help get them past maybe a point in their career where it might be a wow this is hard I don't know if I want to keep up with it and we say please keep up with it and the you know the world is behind you we want you to continue that we will give that out for the second time uh in 2025 and then one final award the Jane Alexander Global Wildlife ambassador award that's for a a public figure uh who has done incredible work uh promoting conservation so we've we've given out all three of those Awards now all three uh will be given out at our Gala in 2025 which is held right here in Indianapolis it is a a remarkable award that gains last cycle about 4 billion with a B 4 billion media Impressions around the world um we announced it from uh London our our last winner uh was a guy named Dr Pablo borogu who studies penguins and preserves Penguins in Argentina and around the world um we announced it in London had dramatic International media attention look we love NPR but this was what was so interesting NPR Co here in the US NPR covered it because the BBC covered it so we're a you know based here in in Indianapolis and Indiana but we had to go out of the country to get get attention from some of our major media folks in the country so it's it's crazy but you know it's the normal it's normal people are learning about us and once they know about us they love us and they ask about us thank you we appreciate you doing that well I mean anytime the Indiana host or or has the a world renowned anything I'm intrigued by it and the fact that we have a world renowned conservation award that's known internationally is incredible to me absolutely you can see on our go on our Zoo website IND or Indianapolis who this is so you've given out 10 Awards so it's every two years uh the 10th one will be in 2025 given out n nine th far how and I don't know this was obviously predates you a little bit but I'm sure you know a little bit about the history how does someone just start giving the most prestigious conservation award you know like who just sits around the table like you know what like we should give out the award to the most prestigious hooer and all of a sudden everyone respects it and loves it that's right well here so here's what happen so um my predecessor I'm glad you asked because I wanted to mention my predecessor Mike Crowder uh is the person he was the the CEO uh who started the Indianapolis prize so so that concept came and the first one let's see 1086 the first one was given out in 2006 and then it's every two years and then I joined the zoo in 2010 so we've given it out every other year since then and and the whole idea was that when you look at the level of attention we give to do performers singers actors musicians whatever The Zo exactly they got the zoo right even um you know sports stars I'm not I'm not saying they don't deserve the attention they do but but let's say well well why don't we give attention to the people who are helping to save the planet Elevate them to that same kind of status where people really admire them really look up to them think their accomplishments are incredible that's was the point of this so when you go back kind of connect the dots there's a lot of stuff we do behind the scenes and a lot of stuff we do with people working in the field doing conservation but just like the 1 and A4 million people a year that come to the zoo we want people around the world to know about these conservationists and these are conservationists that come again from all over the world we've had a remarkable diversity in the number of people um who have received this award I mentioned um Poppy the the penguin guy from Argentina and the emerging conservation W went to Fanny corn Works in Peru so we're kind of all over the place and it it has grown over the last cycle what I will tell you is the the growth in only 20 years has been dramatic we are now again internationally well- known with billions of media Impressions every single cycle that's pretty dramatic um now it's growing that and sustaining that interest which which we certainly are um but it didn't come easily it was a lot of work yeah I was going to say I wonder about that first year you like call up of someone you're like you won the Indianapolis prize and they're like What's that where's Indianapolis that's right so the first the first winner uh was a guy named George archabald and he studied uh crane all kinds of cranes especially whooping cranes he is still active as a crane conservationist he's in barbou Wisconsin the second winner was um a guy named George shaller probably the most incredible conservationist ever come from the United States studied animals all over the world gorillas giant pandas Lions you name it 92 years old I I was interacting with him over email last week still active in advancing and promoting conservation every single one of the the winners of the Indianapolis prize is still active and working in their field even though they may be in their 80s or 90s wow that's incredible I love and I think that the non I don't want to say non-c conservational like the people that aren't really pluged into wildlife and conservation on a serious level like don't understand how crazy cool it is to have the Indianapolis prize and the growth like if this is how far you've gotten in you know 10 Cycles 20 years imagine 50 or 100 yeah that's right you and I think that also when you're giving awards like this not that the money matters but like that gives you some serious credibility you're giving a quar million dollars out that starts to gain some attention for sure in in especially in an industry where I don't I don't know but I'm guessing it's not super lucrative right no one goes into conservation because I'm going to be a millionaire they go into it because passionate it's the same as you know the zoo Community you don't do this because it it's not a for-profit kind of thing it's because you care about the world you care about the planet you care about future Generations well man this has been incredible thus far we're kind of getting towards the end of the show I would like to know what's coming down the pipeline what can whoers expect coming out of the zoo in 2025 and Beyond speaking of the Indianapolis prize we do have a Gala in 202 5 is held right down here at the at the JW in downtown Indianapolis if you go to our website there's a page on the website about the Indianapolis prize all kinds of great information of that great information about the Indianapolis prize Gala and there are still tickets available for 2025 if you'd like to go when is it at in 2025 let's see do I have this right September 27th 2025 plenty of time if you aren't a conservationist when you come to that event you will leave as one that's a guarantee so you have an inredible time it's worth it to think about or if you just want to learn about the Indianapolis prize you can do it there in May of 2025 uh we open I'm so excited about this new exhibit and we've already announced it so I'm not giving anything away I shouldn't um we are opening a Tor a giant tortoise exhibit uh with both alabra and galapagus: I've seen like box turtles what's the difference between a box turtle and a giant T what are you talking about what's the difference I said about 500 lb different oh so yeah for I love that reaction so about five a big big male big big male giant Tor May 4 to 500 lbs and a little box turtle you know a couple pounds how old will uh these Tor tortoise ey T ttis tortoises there there are some tortoises now in their oh well over 100 years old well over 100 years old and we're going to get two uh oh no we'll have I I think the final count I can't remember if it's six or seven but this will be a really phenomenal exhibit we will have a range of sizes because we want to see people want people to see what they grow into also um but we will have some very large on isn't that great like like 20 40 60 80 that's that's so we we are um I am super excited about it and and it's because we when when we think about developing a new exhibit we have to think about well what different type type of information do we want to convey to people or what different kind of experience do we want to convey and this is going to be a really unique opportunity to help people understand about amazing tortois ISM and and so the link of course is we have uh Native box turtles in Indiana and a lot of people don't realize they're endangered in the state of Indiana everybody a lot of people grew up seeing box turtles everywhere it's not true anymore they're endangered one of our big educational messages will be you know you know there's not a whole lot that you can do for a galopagos or alabra tortoise in Indiana but you can do an awful lot for box turtles and other kind of tortois right here in Indiana so we use it to make that great connection and that opens in April May May Memorial Day Weekend Memorial Day weekend we have the new giant tortoise exhibit September we have priz Gala the gala you got it got it 26 we'll announce that we'll announce that later in 25 but uh but we're doing great and and not to forget uh we just opened International chimpanzee exhibit it's fantastic again 21 chimpanzees by the way 19 of those 21 regularly work on touch sensitive computers where people can see them working so and all 21 will be soon it's just getting enough computers installed and enough access you're telling me in Indianapolis there are 19 chimpanzees that use computers yeah and I think and about 10 orangutans so people are talking about AI like I'm let's look at the Indianapolis chimpanzee population what they're doing that's great what are they doing on the computers my research background and then my my good colleague Dr Chris Martin we we're both involved in that so Chris is managing all of the chimpanzee research I I do research only with the Orangutans at this point but there's a whole variety of tasks that they work on for me it's orangutans working with written symbols things like um Arabic numbers for uh the chimpanzees it's it's all kinds of tasks ranging from test are very easy to understand like Tic Tac Toe where they play against the computer to things like um you know if I if I talked about a memory card game where you take playing cards and turn them over and then you have to remember and match up the pairs um they do that virtually on their computer screen uh everything to learning sequences uh of understanding things from like larger to smaller or lighter to darker you name it all all kinds of tasks that they're working on um and we have a visiting researchers coming in it's it's quite remarkable so this is like the most computer literate AP population anywhere in the united states in the United States or the world well there are some chimpanzees in Japan that are remarkable working with computers they've been doing it longer than our chimpanzees the most intelligent chimpanzees in the United States reside in the Indianapolis Zoo I can't think of another place where you can see that many chimpanzees and arons working on computers working on the computer that's crazy all right and you look absolutely like delighted dude I just love it like these are the that I love to uncover like it's the most random stuff like you know the chimpanzees here in Indianapolis are using computers to play memory games that we played when I was like a kindergarten that's like really exciting but also like you're like it's kind of crazy and right in front of visitors you can come in and watch it that's wild all right I love it well hey we're at the end of the show I have a couple segments left some fun questions wrap up this is our younger years segment it's brought to you by our friends at or Fellowship they are a great organization here in Indiana helping develop young Business Leaders across the state Rob what advice would you give to your 22-year-old self it's worth it the work you're doing is worth it going to school working hard focusing on the future just say it's worth it I love that yeah it's worth it it's worth it amen just keep going keep going especially I mean that has to matter in a field again where we say it's not necessarily the most lucrative so you have to keep going because of the mission right oh that you're your passion matters it's it's worth it yeah that's what I would have said basketball fans listen up March starts here in India we are hosting the 2025 barbasa Horizon league basketball championships mark your calendars for Monday March 10th and Tuesday the 11th when the top four teams in men's and women's basketball will square off at the corteva Coliseum at the fairgrounds right now Cleveland State leads the men standings with Purdue Fort Wayne Right on their heels for the women's Purdue Fort Wayne is at the top just out in front of Green Bay and we're going to get six incredible basketball games over a two-day span four semi-final games on Monday and both finals held on Tuesday action starts at noon both days and you can buy tickets on the horizon League website or on ticket Master you also need to know about the allnew Horizon League individual membership fans can become Horizon League members and receive a unique Indie Centric shirt Horizon League glasswar Championship tickets and much more check out all the details at Horizon league.

org Indie remember March starts here in Indianapolis at corteva coliseum March 10th and 11th I will see yall out there well now we're here to the lightning round I have a couple fun questions and then we'll we'll round it out with the same three questions that we ask every guest so when you think of top exhibits yes okay the exhibits that attract the most visitors where if you announce if any Zoo across the world announced this exhibit it would attract a ton of visitors what would it be certainly chimpanzees chimpanzees are a big a big driver in in the world of it's not here yet but I could imagine it any kind of dinosaur um obviously that's hypothetical but that's what people ask could you get a dinosaur is there any way to get a dinosaur no there's not a way to get a dinosaur um but you can go to the Children's Museum and see incredible din dinosaur exhibit it's It's usually the animals that are really dramatic things like great apes big carnivores yeah I what the go-to Blockbuster exhibit like if any Zoo wanted to level up you'd say open up this and it's like a guaranteed Blockbuster uh it's it's usually great apes wow it's usually one of the great apes is is what's really remarkable what's the most low maintenance exhibit at the zoo we talk about something like snakes which I love snakes I'm a huge snake fan but of course you know they only eat like once AEK week and there's not a whole lot of cleanup and they're on the scale of oh no pun intended but if you're talking on scale of animals right the snakes are a lot less demanding to take care of than something like you know an elephant say what's the most high maintenance animal at the Indianapolis Zoo people but I said um high maintenance um if there's one specific like Billy the chimp or whoever um I think of high maintenance it's it's really uh most of the animals in our oceans building and the the reason I say that is again water quality water temperature um those things really are absolutely critical they have to be excellent all the time when I think of high maintenance I think of risk so if things go badly for I mean this is true you know any aquarium things go badly with water quality or temperature or so on you know the results are really really bad so that's what I that's what I think of as the most high maintenance is um where there's the most risk and and luckily we have a phenomenal um Department that manages all of our oceans animals what's the difference between an aquarium and an oceans building like are they all called aquarium sorry we have an oceans building that's all uh exhibits about ocean living animals um but it's essentially an aquarium okay so yeah okay got you I didn't know if there was like a difference it's just it's just a label we use at the zoo uh what's your favorite animal at the Indianapolis Zoo this is the true answer my favorite animal is whatever animal I'm with at the time oh the classic it's the truth it's the truth I would say there is something that is my favorite about every species I'm around but I I find whatever species I'm around is absolutely enthralling all right that's fair what's one animal you'd love to add to the zoo someday this is not going to happen because they're just not available but I would love to have platypus they're just such an unusual animal and most people don't know they're they're a mammal that lays eggs uh and there's only a few species they're called monot and so uh their babies come out of eggs and uh they're incredible they're fantastic it's hard to believe that they're real it looks like a a story book it looks like a something out of Harry Potter when you look at a platypus they're absolutely incredible and I would love it if we had platypus but they're just they're just not available they're they are they're from Australia so uh are they still like in nature in Australia yeah yeah they're still they're still in pretty good shape in Australia and but they're they're just not really available outside of austral very very rare outside of Australia where would be the nearest one like at a zoo San Diego zo has has I think a pair maybe more than a pair but I think they're great I think they're great platus all right it's on the list but don't think it's very possible oh I don't think it's going to happen for us but um but that it that would be a really really cool um exhibit probably not a blockbuster exhibit because most people don't get that excited don't get as excited as I do about them but um they are they're an amazing amazing interesting animal I love that all right now these are the same three questions we ask everyone who sits in that chair what's something the world needs to know about Indiana it's a great place to live and you will never regret the decision to move here and live here it's a great place that's spoken from someone who moved here uprooted their family and came that's right I moved here from DC yeah well originally from DC yeah it's a great place to live mik drop right there there we go it's a great place to live abolutely it really is and I always the guests that have gone and lived other places and then still choose to be in Indie like those are they say better I'm a lifelong Hoosier right so the more I say there's like oh he's never gone and done anywhere like you've been places and done things like and you're still choosing Indianapolis yeah my my justification for that is when you're living somewhere else cuz it was true for me like living in DC you think that's the only way that there is to live meaning sitting in traffic all day long and incredible high prices and you know all kinds of challenges you you forget there are other places to live and you forget that those are the things that make you happy if you move to Indiana I guarantee you will find the things here that make you happy I love that what is the Hidden Gem in Indiana it's all the Fantastic small Parks we have and small hiking trails that like Holiday Park for example it's an incredible place I think most people don't think too much about it they might think about oh there's a great concert series or oh there's a great you know Nature Center there or something but go on the in trail and what makes it great it's easy it's accessible you don't have to plan a trip to go hiking there you can do it on your way home to home from work every day so I think it's all the great approachable lovely hiking trails and hidden parks that are not huge but but they are fantastic and it can immerse you in a beautiful outdoor surrounding 5 minutes after you leave work every day it's incredible I love that that's a great answer I think around this we're in Broad Ripple right so you have like Holiday Park or morat Park like there are some really cool ones there Marat is another great one that one is it's you don't even realize it you drive by it every day that is a fantastic little park right on the river it's incredible it's cool if you haven't gone out and hiked there I definitely recommend it all right final question of the day who is a hooer that we need to keep on our radar someone who's doing big things the CEO of the Children's Museum Jennifer Pace Robinson what do you love about Jennifer everything she's fantastic she's a great colleague she's a great friend she is doing incredible work for kids and their parents in Indianapolis and Beyond of course everybody knows it's the biggest Children's Museum in the world it's fantastic it deserves the reputation it has and she is a not new but newish CEO there few years now I think she's a she's a treasure for for Indianapolis and not enough people know about her love She's fantastic there we go we'll uh we'll put a standing in out if she sees us she can come on the show and we'll we'll chat about all things will will I love it Dr Shaker thank you so much for the time today this was an awesome conversation I can't think you I love learning about this the past two three decades of the zoo and all the growth you've had there uh the Indianapolis prize and the ins and outs there and then just the conserv I I'm really intrigued to hear what people have to say about learning how animals or zoos get animals I I found that super fascinating um and I appreciate you sharing all the the insight and the amazing work you're doing for the zoo oh round it out Jubilation when when Jubilation next year we didn't even get into that but when's Jubilation next year uh Jubilation is in June and tickets go on sale oh is it February 2nd or third I can't remember somewhere around February uh you yeah it's early early February they go on sale 9:00 in the morning and they're gone in like 10 minutes so it sells out we sell about almost 6,000 tickets every year those those go almost instantly again go to our website indo.

com check on zuil when tickets go on sale and you got to get in the queue first thing when they when they go on sale um and that'll that's the first week of February and if you aren't familiar with Jubilation it's your guys's like annual fundraiser Gala type thing it it is the largest fundraiser of the year at the zoo it is biggest and best party of the year in Indianapolis every single year held on zoo grounds uh and it is absolutely incredible totally fashion forward every major restaurant Indianapolis is there you got to go if you haven't gone treat yourself it's fantastic and by the way a lot of people don't understand you get to Jubilation once you buy your ticket everything's included so you walk in you don't spend a penny while you're there you you walk in all the food all the drink all the entertainment all the everything people watching it's incredible animals it's fantastic I love it June 13th oh good man yeah we'll be there all right hey thank you so much for the time and uh we'll have to have you in 2026 when we open some new exhibits we'll have to have on I'd love that and I also wanted to mention I've got a I got a podcast my own podcast if anybody like to listen it's called worth your time me and Christy Lee from The Bob and Tom Show what do you guys what do you guys chop it up about we talk we do a little bit of everything and that's kind of what's interesting is we're about as different as two people can be and we love working together and uh we talk to interesting people doing remarkable things so some of it is uh from my background my profession uh Zoo Community conservations animal related topics but but that's only part of it Christy brings in incredible people um and you name it we'll talk to just about anybody that's interesting and compelling and so uh worth your time if anybody wants to check it out we sure appreciate that love it all right you know where to go and other than that make sure you check the website for jubilation tickets keep your eye out for September for the Indianapolis prize 27th and may the new giant tortoise exhibit open oh you're good man Nate thank you so much appreciate you thank you for listening to this episode of get in if you like what you heard make sure you leave us a review wherever you listen to podcast this show is made possible by our friends up at Sweetwater whether you're looking to start a podcast or take your content to the next level click the link in the description to see all of my gear recommendations at sweetwater.

com if you want to behind the scenes look at everything we're doing across the state make sure you follow me on Instagram and Tik toac @nate spangle thank you so much for listening and being part of what makes the hooer state great we'll see you next time here on get in