25 Million Gallons a Day… and People Are Panicking

In Lebanon, we have somewhere on the order of about 20,000 pounds of active bacteria.

It's kind of like a sourdough starter.

We love them. We let them grow.

The dam at Eagle Creek, one day could be like a trickle and the next day it could be like a tsunami.

Ultimately, we'll use all 10 of our treatment facilities to supply all of our customers. It's going into our system and serving the entirety of our system, including Lean. What is the truth about water usage when it comes to data centers in Indiana? From South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between, this is Get In, the show focused on the Hoosier State and the incredible stories happening here today. I'm Nate Spangle, founder of Get Indiana, and I will be your host for today's conversation. This episode of Get In is brought to you by Indie Grills and Outdoor Living, Indiana's go-to team for custom patios, outdoor kitchens, fireplaces, and four season rooms.

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You can visit their state-of-the-art showroom on State Road 32 at the Zansville, Lebanon border. It's open weekdays and Saturdays, or start planning today at indiegrills. com. Today, I'm joined by two awesome guests to talk all things water in central Indiana. Steve Barby is the director of water production for Citizens Energy Group, and Dr. Bob Holden, PhD PE BCE E is the senior vice president at Wesler Engineering and he's the consultant to Lebanon Utilities.

Now, for background for listeners, in 2022, the state Eli Liy in the town of Lebanon announced the Leap District. It's a large-scale development in Lebanon, Indiana, designed to attract advanced manufacturing and technology industries to the state. So, if you I mean, you probably have to be living under a rock if you haven't heard about the Leap District. It is a huge news coming to Boone County, Lebanon, Indiana. And today we're diving into the infrastructure that it takes to bring a project of this magnitude to life. Uh specifically around water.

I know that if you're reading the news and you see a lot of things, water is a huge point that people are curious about and want to know all the facts and the ins and the outs. And so today we're joined by two experts in the water space to talk all things water and Levvenet. Gentlemen, welcome to the show.

Thank you. All right, so we're going to dive into it. Um, again, for background, Leap District gets announced. One of the major components of bringing a project to life is utilities. You'd think of water power. Today, we're diving into water. So, talk to us about the need and the scale of just water in general that's going to take to bring this project to life. Like what is the current need for not only new growth that's coming, but also the existing residents that are in Lebanon?

Yeah. So the state approached us in late 2024 and asked for citizens to provide up to 25 million gallons of water per day to Lebanon utilities.

Like put that in perspective. What does like let's say what's the city of Indianapolis use in water a day in gallons.

Yeah. On average about 127 to 130 million gallons per day on average.

Wow. Okay. So a quarter uh no that's public math but okay. Okay. So, 25 million gallons being put up to Lebanon uh for this potential expansion. What is like the current use of Lebanon today?

I believe it their capacity is about 5 million gallons per day.

Yeah, Lebanon uses a little less than 5 million gallons a day.

Okay. So, I mean a pretty big growth there. I mean that has to be like an exciting project. Uh how long have you been with Citizens?

Almost 14 years.

14 years. And so to get approached to get to work on a cool project like this has to be kind of exciting.

Yep.

Yeah. Okay. So from an infrastructure perspective, the state approaches citizens and says, "Hey, we need 25 million gallons." Uh what are the ways that that's being used in the what was like the thought process of okay, we're going to need to 5x our water capacity.

Yeah. So we have an integrated water resource planning process where we project out our needs for the next 50 years, including the water supply projects necessary to meet that demand. Yeah. So when the state approached us, we said, "All right, let's look at our plan and can we accelerate some of these projects, put in that additional demand into the forecast and assess, can we do that in a feasible time frame?"

Well, and this isn't just a new thing for Lebanon, correct? Like I I believe that the area is kind of in an interesting geographical spot that has had a water I don't know, some interesting pieces with water in the past for decades.

Yeah, Lebanon exists in a water desert for all intents and purposes.

Really? Is that based on like just the natural like the earth underneath the ground?

Exactly. Yeah. Lack of aquifer.

Yeah. If you think about the continental divide that we all learned about in school.

Yeah.

Lebanon sits right on the basically watershed divide between the Wabash and the White River. So water flows away from Lebanon.

Dr. Holden, how long have you worked in Lebanon?

I've been serving Lebanon for about 30 years now.

Okay. So, so let's say 28 years ago. Was was water a discussion that you guys were talking about through the past three decades?

Yes, it it has. It's been around that long.

Wow. Okay. So, it's not just like, hey, this is a new a new problem for today. This is something that you guys have been talking about for an extended period of time.

Correct.

Okay. And then from a citizen's perspective, is the idea of of sending water to other places new?

No. Citizen serves eight wholesale customers already which are basically communities that are in close proximity to Indianapolis but may need additional water to supply their

like what's an example of that?

So Lisden for example, Brownsburg um Whitestown are all wholesale customers from citizens.

So when putting a project like this together from the like how does how does it actually happen? like how does water end up? Where does it start and where how does it end to like fuel the residents of Lebanon as well as future growth?

So, Citizens has 10 treatment plants throughout our system. Surface water makes up about 75% of our

What does that mean?

So, water that's in rivers, streams, water that you can see versus ground water is water that has to be pumped out.

So, 75% surface, which would be river, streams, lakes, whatever that might be. And then 25% like somewhere underground.

Yeah. a little bit above my pay grade.

So, we utilize all 10 of those treatment plants to serve our uh distribution system and then from there we pump that water out to customers.

75% of it comes from like what would what would be sources that we would know about?

So, the White River is the predominant one. Yeah. Two of our treatment plants are on the the White River. Um Fall Creek and then Eagle Creek. Why is the work that you guys are doing so important for whether it's residents of Lebanon to know about or just the general state and hers that are interested in in you know developments across the state or potential new moveins like why is this work so important for them to know about

the planning required to make sure that we can support growth our existing customers uh is critical to our uh the economic engine of central Indiana and the state

probably if you check Facebook groups or local forums like people are are up in arms a little bit because they want to know the truth and the facts and all that and they're worried that I mean you know there's a a lot of talk around rising utility bills and you know water's going to be power could be more expensive, water is going to be more expensive. What does that look like to a consumer in Lebanon? Like if you own a home in Lebanon and after this project comes to life, how will that affect the end consumer? So I think it's important to realize that this isn't a case where residential or existing customers are going to see any impact at all in their bill. All this infrastructure is being paid by the leap district and the people that choose to build there and that will be all those um funds will be recaptured through their user rates.

Okay. So explain that in uh in my terminology. Right. So

your bill doesn't go up at all

as a resident.

The industry bill goes up.

Okay. So I think IEDC was involved with that. Right.

Correct.

So they are helping make bring this infrastructure into Lebanon but that will be funded by you know if I open my business in the leap district or whatever then that new growth funds the infrastructure growth. Correct.

Correct.

Okay. How long does a project like this take to go from planning to I don't know water coming out of a faucet? So, the timing of bringing water to Lebanon, um, we expect to have the first two million gallons per day available by 2027, then 10 million gallons per day by 2028, and then the full 25 by 2031.

If I were to walk up in the Leap district right now, what does it look like? Like, is there is there like stuff happening and like, you know, buildings being constructed?

You bet. It Lebanon is a very busy place for a traffic perspective right now.

I think that Lebanon has just had a bunch of growth in general. Like has the increase of whether it be business or population before the leap district like I mean has it been growing? I feel like it's been growing the past decade.

Lebanon has been growing but not at the same rate. So LEAP is exponential growth for the city.

Yeah. Okay. And what are some of the common misconceptions that you think people might need to have a little more context into uh when thinking about the leap district and thinking about specifically as to utilities water? When thinking about water infrastructure as a whole, there there's basically a water cycle that occurs. So, drinking water utilities, uh, take water from the environment, treat it to the Safe Drinking Water Act standards, send it off to customers. They then use that water, return it to the local wastewater utility, who then treats it to a a clean standard, and then discharges it back into the environment. And that cycle is taking place upstream of Indianapolis, within Indianapolis, downstream of Indianapolis.

Like, I think that's an important thing for everyone to know. You you talked about I think uh I think you had an interesting way of putting this. The water that you know upstream downstream like I don't know go as far north as possible hits a water treatment plant then ends up back and comes further south. Like there's only a finite amount of water on Earth, right?

Correct.

Like explain that process in a way that would make sense to the the average Hoosier.

So we are water recyclers, right? When we clean the water, Steve generates the water, we bring it in, we clean it, we release it back into the environment. At some point in time, the water that we release back into the environment, Steve recaptures and treats and brings back. So, it's a constant cycle. You know,

I believe the phrase that we used was there is no new drinking water. Some portion of it has been waste water at some point in time.

Wow. Yeah. I think the the the term was the water you're drinking has probably been in someone's kidneys at some point.

Yeah. That's which is funny to like I mean it's real though like there's a ton of water uh and it is this just like there's a cycle for uh like you know it goes up into again this is like fifth grade science right goes up into the clouds and then comes back in the three stages or whatever there's from treated drinking water to treated waste water and then like back into drink drink drinking water again like that's an interesting thing to think about from the water perspective that I think the average person takes for granted like I definitely turn on my faucet and just think like, "Oh yeah, this is comes from the ground. It's brand new." Like, yeha. Which Okay, wait. What about well water? Like, if I lived out in the country and had a well, would that just be brand new water?

It's likely been in the ground for an extended period of time, but at some point it fell as rainwater and then infiltrated into that aquafer before.

Is that why city water versus wellwater tastes different? Cuz it doesn't like go does it does well water go through a treatment plant?

It does.

Oh, it does. It's a slightly different process because it tends to be more stable than surface water. You don't have the same uh transients that occur when it rains or or things like that. But ultimately, the the reason water tastes different from different sources or different areas of the country is is really the minerals that are in the water. So, every area has sort of its own fingerprint in terms of the minerals and things and and so that's what makes it taste the way it does.

Okay. There was a conference in Fort Wayne last year. The uh Indiana basically they brought all the local utilities around and they do a contest. Have you heard of this?

Did you guys go to the

We did not.

I was like a uh I was like a guest judge at this Indiana water. I don't remember the total name but I was a guest judge and they bring water from different utilities and it's like nine star and green field and so and so like all these different places come together and you are like I was like a site I was in a lab coat and I was analyzing drinking water and then the final one is taste and I just remember going up there and it's a bunch of people that work in utilities and I remember like the last advice before I go up there

was like if you drink all of the first one you have to drink all of the next three they will be very offended if you only drink a certain amount of each one of them like you have to stay consistent. And I'm like I'm just here like trying to make a video about water in Indiana and like and I'm like now u cuz the winner gets to go to DC to compete in like the national water competition and I had no idea all of the

I mean the really important impactful work that goes into and it's like silly to say that out loud, right? Because it's like oh I drink this every day. Like I should know that a lot of effort goes into drinking standards but you take it for granted.

Wow. Okay. From uh like moving water, wholesaling water, how does an agreement like that work? And is it just like one day you're like, "Okay, we shake hands and we flip on your spot and now you have water or like how does that happen?"

No, in in the case of this program, um because of the magnitude of the water, it's requiring two treatment plant expansions, uh four new booster stations, upgrades of one booster pump station, seven new finished water treatment storage tanks, and about 53 miles of main just in the citizen system. and that's to get it to the front doorstep of Lebanon. They then have infrastructure on their end to ultimately get it to their end users.

These are the things I don't know if people think about when you see yeah new development, new builds is like there is a ton of infrastructure that has to go in to uh bring this to life. Now, one huge question mark that people have around this project has to deal with this whole corridor, the district. Um, I mean, stretches kind of like towards Lafayette. And there was a huge announcement about um 100 million gallons being used for a microchip processor or something. I don't know. Again, this is above my pay grade, but a big development that was happening up near Lafayette that was kind of got cycled into all of this. talk to us about the difference in those projects and what you guys are doing and and just like clarify a little bit about that.

So that 100 million gallons a day was the very very start that was pre- leap almost. Okay. And it was the idea that this chip manufacturer was going to come in. They needed a huge volume of water and that was the original thought was to go to Lafayette and get it out of the Wabash.

That ended okay and is no longer part of the project that this is the agreement with citizens is up to 25 million gallons a day. the 100 million is no longer part of this.

Yeah. Okay. So, 25 million gallons a day. Where does that come from? Uh like, you know, make it make sense to the average person of like, okay, we're we're going to pump 25 million gallons of water up to Lebanon. That's coming 75% from service area. I think uh service water, not service area. I think that uh a big piece of this is people are worried that we are draining Eagle Creek to fuel the Leap District.

So our system capacity right now over those 10 treatment plants is 256 million gallons per day of capacity. So this project will expand two of our treatment plants. The TWW Moses plant on Eagle Creek reservoir as well as our White River North treatment plant. The White River North treatment plant expansions 25 million gallons per day. The TWW Moses expansions up to 6 million gallons per day of expanded capacity. Ultimately, we'll use all 10 of our treatment facilities to supply all of our customers. So, it's not that, you know, we're taking a drop of water from Eagle Creek and sending it up to Leap. It's going into our system and serving the entirety of our system, including Lebanon.

Expanding 6 million gallons from TWW Moses, is that the one on uh Eagle Creek? Like, will the average, you know, Eagle Creek patron notice a difference?

No, we expect the levels to stay basically the same as they've been. So it's a six million gallon per day increase in capacity. We expect the average usage of that treatment plant to expand by or to increase by about two to three million gallons per day. And that differential is because we as utilities have to have the redundancy within our treatment facilities. Make sure we can handle um transient loads, be prepared for emergencies like main breaks and fires and things of that nature. So ultimately it'll be 2 to three million gallons per day additional withdrawals from the reservoir on average.

Eagle Creek Reservoir was built over 50 years ago. We have not changed how we withdraw water from that in that 50 year span and we're seeing incredible increases in inflows into that reservoir. Uh average inflows have increased about 50% from 63 million gallons per day on average before 2000 to about 92 million gallons per day on average since 2000.

Okay. So, if we looked back, has the water level over the last couple decades risen in Eagle Creek? It hasn't risen, but it stayed incredibly consistent. So, in the past, uh the reservoir used to be drawn down numerous feet during dry spells, summertime, and in the past 10 years or so, it's basically been at the target elevations

cuz Okay, so it's a reservoir, so there's a dam on one end. Who runs that? Like, who gets to decide, hey, we're going to we're going to discharge more today or less or is it a constant amount? Like, how did that how does that even work?

Yeah, there's a few different aspects. So the the reservoir is owned by the city of Indianapolis. They dictate the operations of the dam. Citizens is a contract operator for them. So the city the city provides us the target elevations to maintain in the reservoir. There's a minimum release that has to always be maintained of 5.6 million gallons per day for two purposes. One uh to supply water to the town of Speedway for their drinking water intake.

Shout out for the month of May. Probably has to increase a little bit.

Yep. And then second just for ecology and the maintaining a minimum flow in the stream downstream when there's excess inflows beyond what you know we're withdrawing at the treatment plant they open the gates at the dam structure to release that extra water.

Like how often does that happen?

I mean it's a daily evaluation.

Wow. So like you could drive by the dam at Eagle Creek and like one day could be like a trickle and the next day it could be like a tsunami. Not really. But

so during a large rain event and that sort of max flows, that dam structure can release over 6,000 billion gallons of water in one day.

Wait, 6,000?

Sorry. 6,000 million gallons per day.

6,000 million g I don't know what that number is, but that's a lot of water. Okay. So the thought that you know that I you know you've seen whatever posts or things about like that we would be sacrificing Eagle Creek for the Leap District is like it's not just taking water from Eagle Creek and pumping it right there. Like it's also spread through your 10 plants as well.

Okay. I think that that's like a good clarifying, you know, I mean a misconception that when you start to hear things if you don't know the full details about, you know, increased water inputs, is that what you call them?

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The treatment capacity

you're increasing the treatment capacity by 2 to 3 million.

The the plant capacity will increase by six. We expect our withdrawals over the course of a year to increase by two to three.

Okay. And let's say there's like a heavy rain or whatever it could be and you have that excess coming through. What h does it just like go out?

Yeah. So anytime the inflows coming into the reservoir exceed what we're withdrawing and exceed the minimum release downstream that water all gets released downstream into Eagle Creek flows into the White River and ultimately goes down to the the Gulf. So, so we really what we're trying to do is leverage and utilize that excess surplus water for a bene beneficial purpose as opposed to just letting it go downream.

That's so interesting. I've never thought about all the things when you're driving by just like what is all going on there? Um and and bringing that to life. Okay, there is another interesting piece that is also again we're we're identifying and addressing I know some of the issues that the average user might have about this and a big thing people talk about today is data centers and I believe meta is it a meta data center that's going to be within the leap district

and I've heard like a thousand different stories of data centers of they use unlimited water or they have their own closed system and you have to fill it one time and then it goes for what is the truth about water usage when it comes comes to data centers in Indiana,

they all vary. Okay, so in the instance of Meta, you know, Meta has an agreement with Lebanon Utilities. They're going to use up to 8 million gallons a day at full buildout. Okay, they have a water recycling loop. They recycle the water three times through their system before they need to release it out of their system and then that comes back to the Lebanon wastewater treatment plant. 8 million gallons comes through, it gets recycled three times and then and then does that water then go back in to get treated? Like how what happens after the three cycles?

After the three cycles, they release it into the collection system and that comes to Lebanon for treatment prior to release back into the environment. Okay. So, 25 million gallon expansion

from uh the wholesale water agreement with citizens and 8 million of that goes to on a date to the full buildout of the data center.

Correct.

Okay. So then if you think about okay where growth funds growth like they will be paying I mean a third roughly of the premium if I get I don't know if that's like public math kind of but 8 and 25 like you know a third and some change of the the water bill for this increased build out right

correct

like from a utility perspective uh is that the most efficient way like or were there other ideas presented to get this water into the leap district? There was a study done back in 2014 with all of Boone County, including Lebanon, that looked at a variety of options for water supply. It recognized that we're talking about a water desert. It evaluated things like uh new reservoir supply from citizens like we're talking about today. It evaluated bringing in water water from the Wabash. And ultimately, you know, one of the the most economical options from that report was to get water from citizens.

This is the piece that I'm a little uh unsure of. It's like, so the city of Indianapolis is in charge of Eagle Creek. Like, how do you determine who what municipality owns the water source and how that's used? Like, who is who is like the controller of a 10mi section of the Wabash?

It's waters of the state when it comes to rivers and streams. Now, the Eagle Creek Reservoir is owned by the city because they're the ones that um ultimately gained ownership of the land and built the dam structure. Yeah. Now, it was done in a way to achieve three different purposes. One was the primary was flood control. This was after the west side of Indianapolis flooded multiple times in the 50s, but they also recognized the benefit of building a reservoir for water supply and for recreation.

And so, Speedway and the Indianapolis Water Company at the time negotiated with the city and the the board of flood control at the time to basically come up with an agreement to use the the surplus water in that reservoir for both purposes of recreation and water supply. Well, one of the ideas that I had heard again circulated in my vast water knowledge circle was using the Wobbash and like I don't know pumping or diverting a part maybe not diverting that's probably not the right word but using water from the Waw Bash River to put down into the Leap District. Why did we decide that water from Eagle Creek was better than or was the way we're going to go versus from the Wabash?

Ultimately that was the state that was evaluating those options. Um, from my perspective, Citizens already serves in Boone County. We're pretty close in the grand scheme of things. Those 53 miles of main that we talked about, the majority of those are within our existing boundaries and only an incremental amount is taking um water from the boundary of Citizens Energy Groups surface territory to the boundary of Lebanon's uh

service territory. So, it really comes down to a function of scale, available water, and cost to get it there. From a Lebanon perspective, when you Okay, so you get the email one day. It's like, hey, this is coming to town. We're going to need to get some water infrastructure in place. What were the options that you guys were evaluating to then determine that Citizens was the right one?

I was not part of that conversation at all.

Yeah. Okay.

So, by the time it got to you, it was like we've decided that we're going the Citizens route.

You bet.

Wow. That's just like fascinating to be a fly on the wall in the conversation. It's like think about like local leaders and it's like one day you're like, "Hey, we're bringing this new development." And the next day you're like, "Great, now we need to make the sinks work." You know, like how are we going to get the water here,

right?

Um what are the the determining factors when you think about maintaining the current status like serving the residents, you know, making sure that by bringing in this new development, we're not doing a disservice to the current Lebanon. uh what are the factors that go into that uh from the Lebanon perspective and how are you maintaining your local residents as top priority?

So I I just think it's important to come back to the you know the funding for this that the local residents service will not be impacted. It's providing new opportunity for them for growth. Okay, that wasn't there before because there's additional water capacity for the city.

And then you have the leap district that's also coming in that's being supplied. Okay. A common thing that I hear too is because you're wastewater treatment, right? Like water whether it comes wherever it ends up coming down a drain, it ends up somewhere with you, right? Correct.

So a thing that I hear is after you know water goes through a data center, it doesn't it's not going to taste the same. It's not going to be the same. From a treatment perspective, is there a difference in water that comes from a data center versus comes out of my toilet?

There there's a huge difference. Okay. And actually the water that comes out of your toilet is much dirtier than the water that comes out of a data center.

Okay.

Okay. And it's all it's a function of the industry. It's a function of what they're proposing to use um within their cooling loop. They put some chemicals in their their cooling loop to maintain that they largely biocides, right? And antiscaling units or scaling chemicals to allow them to use that water for that three times, right? They don't want bacterial growth. They want to just be able to maintain that water. And so that gets released and then what we do is when they tell us what that is, we evaluate that in relation to our ability to treat that.

Okay. And does anything have to change on your guys's side from, you know, treating what everyone thinks about from wastewater versus a data center wastewater

sometimes? Yes, it does. I mean, we had to take that into consideration in the design. To be frank, the the loading to the wastewater plant is a lot lower because of the data center because it's cleaner water.

Okay.

Okay. And so the way wastewater plants work is they're largely biological and so we need to feed the bacteria and there's not a lot of food to feed the bacteria.

Wait, hold on. I want to dive into this a little bit. So water comes from wherever it is, whether it's a data center or it's from a toilet

into a treatment facility.

Mhm.

How does it actually get treated?

Various unit processes. Okay. So it goes through a step of of different processes. It starts with screening. Take out large stuff that people throw down the toilet. Okay? You know, it

takes out plastics. It takes out baseballs. It takes out You name it.

Have you ever seen anything just like absolutely crazy?

Oh, it's it's amazing what will get I mean um jails are the worst. You know that.

Oh gosh.

Everything gets flushed down into jail.

Yeah. I can just imagine all the like elicit substances and crazy stuff that or like children's toys.

Children's toys, jewelry. Um, money. Yeah.

Cell phones.

All kind. Yep. You name it.

What happens to that stuff?

It gets after it gets reclaimed like that. It goes to the landfill.

After it gets rec that's like, yeah, our count is it's been 200 days since we've had an iPhone 14 fall down the door. It's like, oh, put that down to zero. There's someone's Blackberry. That's crazy. Okay, so screening first.

Screening. Um that's called preliminary treatment and then and primary treatment uh which is largely gravity settling. Lebanon does not have gravity or primary treatment but go then it goes into secondary treatment. Secondary treatment is biological in nature. So in Lebanon we have somewhere on the order of about 20,000 pounds of active bacteria that are in that Lebanon system. We airrate them. We love them. We let them grow.

Why does it smell weird?

You know it really smells kind of like Pete Moss. Oh, okay.

So, that the Lebanon system is designed to to

It's kind of like a sourdough starter, like you have to feed the the thing to keep it going. And is it like the same bacteria every day? Like

it's like a system.

It It's every bacteria under the sun. Okay.

And it eats the like gross parts of it.

Yeah. It eats the organics.

What?

Yeah.

Okay. And then how does water get out of that?

So then after that step, we um it's called clarification. And so it's a big gravity settler. The bacteria will naturally clump together and then they fall out of the water and then we take that water and then filter it, disinfect it, and then we release it back into the environment.

Whoa. How long does that process take? Like if a gallon comes in, how long does it take to get out?

It takes typically somewhere on the order of 16 to 24 hours residence time in the Lebanon system before it goes out to the environment.

Wow. Okay. So then with you talk about like the chemicals or whatever is put into the data center like into their cooling system there. Have you had to introduce new or different bacterias or methods to you know work with that?

Not really. What we did is we adjusted sizes to um maintain hydraulic resonance time because it's large volumes

hydraulic residence time.

So that what that does is it's the size of the tank, right? So you have a flow going through the tank. It's, you know, it it you have to adjust the tank to be bigger to make sure that there's more residence time or the water stays in that tank longer.

Oh, with the bacteria,

right?

When do you think that the like the 8 million gallons for this data center? Like when will that be online and rocking and rolling?

Lebanon has to the current expansion um phase one goes to 10 million gallons a day and that has to be online by January 1st, 2027.

Oh boy.

Phase two has to be online. with 15 million gallons has to be online by January 1st, 2028.

Obviously, you you have everything sorted from when it gets discharged from the data center. Is there anything that that happens for the water? Is it like the same water that I drink, what's going into the data center, what's going into all these water places?

That is correct. So, the the water that comes out of the distribution center is what goes to the industries. Okay. So, that's the same water that goes to Lily, it goes to Meta, and then they adjust their process based on that water. So they may do additional treatment or filtration of that water to get it to the standards that they want.

But then on the flip side, when they release it back,

they operate with what's called an IWP permit or an industrial waste permit. Okay? So they come to Lebanon and eventually they go to the state and they have to tell Lebanon exactly what's going to be in their wastewater to release it. Okay? And they do that to make sure that we can treat it effectively. Okay? Lily's done that. Meta's done that. They then in turn tell that to the state. The state writes an industrial waste permit for them. Okay? And that's what they have to abide by to make sure their water can be treated at the Lebanon facility.

Okay? And so that's like almost like a an outgoing meter or an outgoing test on their side of things. So water comes in, they use it the three times as it's going out. There is like what does that actually look like in in practice?

So their flow is metered. Okay. Okay. So, we know the volumetric flow rate that's coming back. We know how much they've used.

Um, and then there's sampling that's done and they look at a variety of different parameters in their permit and they test for that and they have to self-report that to Lebanon and then Lebanon goes out and also does blind sampling and checks that water themselves. Was there a model like a another community that had just built something similar to this that you had to do research into or study when putting this whole project together?

So we looked at a variety of different uh you know data sources on data centers, okay, to familiar familiarize ourselves with what that effluent looks like um so that we can understand what that's going to do to the treatment process. And then we modeled the treatment process with that in mind so that we could look at the or predict the performance of the plant.

Yeah. What about from wholesaling water and like making that whole thing happen? Has how long has citizens been wholesaling water?

Decades. I I couldn't tell you where it is.

This is new. This isn't like something again this is not new.

No.

I just think that Yeah. through whether it be social media or the rumor mill or whatever it is like you know something like a data center has just gotten uh a lot of people that are unhappy about that and whether they're unhappy that it's coming there this that the other thing but from a water side like do you is it going to change a lot about the quality of water that you guys are treating and then pumping back into the system?

It's not going to change very much at all. When Lebanon um discharges treated water, we operate or they operate under what's called a national pollutant discharge elimination system or NPDES permit. And what that does is it is a permit that um governs the operations of the facility. So they have water quality criteria that they have to meet before they can release that water into the environment. Just like uh you need to know what's coming in uh from the output of the data center then you are also there's quality control of what comes out of the treatment plant.

That is correct.

Okay. Well, is there like factors? This is a weird question probably, but when you talk about the taste of water, like if you guys are, you know, I don't know, pulling your lovers or doing whatever as it comes out, are there things and and variables that you're looking at that would make water taste better than other places and you're like, "Oh, you know, if we had X, Y, or Z in this, it would be tasty."

One thing we do do um at our treatment plants is we have a powdered activated carbon system. So we can feed uh activated carbon very similar to what's in a filter in your refrigerator.

Um so we can feed that into the process if there is some you know safe but objectionable you know taste or odor in sort of the natural water that's occurring. Oftentimes that's from algae growth and they create some byproducts that again are

safe for you to drink but have sort of an odd flavor.

Where's the best tasting water in the state of Indiana?

Oh citizens.

There you go. I mean is there like is there like scoring? Is there a rubric on that? Like I know that I scored it, but I have no idea what I'm talking about. Like, is there different factors when you're looking at water that would equate to taste?

I'll just say no. Not not that I'm familiar with.

Not from like a sc like a research bag perspective.

Yeah. I mean, you could get into again all the different minerals and things. And you know, a lot of bottled water, for example, they'll use reverse osmosis to strip everything out and then they'll add minerals back in.

Come on, you guys got drinking water coming out.

Yep. The Citizens Indo.

Yep. Indh2O. So that's coming from our White River treatment plant being bottled by or canned by Circle Beverage.

Yeah.

And it's the same water that would come out of your tap if you live in the vicinity of White River.

Come on. There we go. I feel like I mean what a cool initiative there. Locally sourced in central Indiana. Hey, did you guys know Citizens Energy Group was founded in 1887 as a public trust and operates for the benefit of customers in the community?

I did not know.

The more you know. 1887. That's crazy that there's been the business of treating and like, you know, moving water since 1887. Like that's just wild. Like I think that there were still like pumps and like outouses in 1887, but like citizens was rocking and rolling in the water space. Are there any final pieces that hooers or the residents of Lebanon need to know when it comes to the infrastructure in the water that's going to support the Leap District and the city of Lebanon?

I think understanding that, you know, while this project is large, we're implementing the same planning and, you know, water resource planning and treatment that would be utilized with any of our projects.

Yeah. um the wastewater return that Bob's been talking about. Um you know, treated water, you know, coming into each of our reservoirs in central Indiana. There's already upstream communities discharging water uh treated water into, you know, the various streams upstream of uh Eagle Creek, Morris Reservoir, White River, Gist, etc.

Citizens have been doing work like going out and telling telling the good news in and across the Lebanon community, right? like have you guys had to sit on panels or do anything like that to you know have this same conversation?

Yeah, we've been presenting at um numerous community groups. Um

what's the number one question that people from the community groups ask you guys?

Treated water return. So Lebanon's going to have this influx of 25 million gallons of or up to 25 million gallons of water a day. We're going to treat it. Um as part of that agreement, there's a portion of that that's going to be returned back into the White River wershed. Okay. So Steve referenced that Lebanon sits between two wersheds.

They sit in the Sugar Creek wershed and the water is going to come from the White River wershed. Um part of that agreement is that that water is going to get returned. We talked about that water going over the dam and that's you know it's important to realize that from a water perspective that there are other customers downstream or communities downstream that rely on that water too. So that's important for Morgan County, it's important for Spencer County, etc. So that water as it's moving downstream is is still important. So to maintain that volumetric balance, what we're talking about is bringing treated water back into the white river watershed.

And that's where the Eagle Creek discharge comes into play. Okay? And so what we're doing is we're evaluating potential discharge locations where we can bring that back into the White River wershed.

And the other piece is so this water is going to be in a big pipe and get sent up to Lebanon. Like how big is this pipe?

Uh it's anywhere from 24 to 36 inches for majority. So 25 million gallons in a 36 inch pipe. Like that doesn't seem that big. The last guy from Citizens down here, he was working with like a 30 foot or 24 foot uh the diggity tunnel. That's a tunnel. This is a pipe. Okay. So we have a three-foot pipe that's going to send it up there and then it would get piped back to Eagle Creek.

It's going to get piped back into the White River wershed someplace. Okay. So right now what we've done is we've asked for preliminary limits that we'd have to meet, water quality that we'd have to meet to get it back into that wershed and we chose the location immediately upstream of Eagle Creek because that's going to give us the most stringent limits.

And so we're looking at and that allowed us to design our treatment plant to meet those limits.

What we're doing is we're looking at different locations that um it can be potentially discharged. The the recommended location is is immediately upstream of Eagle Creek right now. Um, from a volutric perspective, it's it's provides the most opportunity where that water the volume of that water can be managed the best.

All right, gentlemen. Is there anything that I missed when talking about the water that's going to help Lebanon, that's going to help the Leap District? Uh, and just not also adversely affect Hoosiers. I think that's a piece that people are worried about is that, you know, okay, one, we're are they draining Eagle Creek? Is the water gross and contaminated and disgusting and I'm gonna end up, you know, I don't know, whatever it might be. I just think that uh people Yeah. I've been looking for clarity in in the terms of water, right? Clarity, opaque, you know, all the terms um around this project and what it's going to mean from a utility perspective. So, I appreciate you guys' insight. Did I miss anything?

It's not unique, you know, that we do this across the entire state. Almost every community recycles water like this. You know, I understand you're a canoer. You There was a reference to in your past interview my down to

I'm working on it this summer. I'm hoping for it.

All right. Well, as you can this summer, I guarantee you're going to canoe past treated outfalls.

Yeah.

Okay. Water being released back into the environment.

We Yeah. I mean, I'm going to explore this summer. We're going from hopefully, knock on wood, the project's going to come to life, but from Muny down. So, I'll have a good I'll have a good grasp of the White River and all the different places cuz yeah, there are a lot of different uh Citizens serves a portion of that, but I'm sure there's other utility companies that might even be wholesale customers of of Citizens where you guys are piping water.

Yeah.

Yeah. One other thing to mention is just how much this project will help our existing customers. They're not paying for it yet. Many of these projects are within our current service territory. So, our current customers, particularly in the northwest uh quadrant of our system, are going to have more fire hydrants for fire protection, um more consistent pressures, more storage in the air for emergencies, more reliability due to the additional mains that uh increased looping within the system.

So, all of these things will benefit our current customers uh in addition to the new customers over in Lebanon.

Heck yeah. All right. Well, gentlemen, I appreciate you coming on. I think that the work that you're doing here is often overthought, right? It's like not top of- mind to think about how water is getting anywhere when you turn on a faucet. And so it makes me, you know, drink better at night, I suppose, knowing that there are people way smarter than me solving these problems and, you know, taking in all the different factors and pumping out something great into whether it be canned water or into the faucet. So, appreciate you stopping by.

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