They built everything that you guys are now profiting off of immensely. But don't forget these guys, just don't forget 'em
at an ABA game here at the fairgrounds in Indianapolis. Right. A live bear came out. Mm-hmm. And wrestled with people,
not only about these guys waiting for their pension, but it's about waiting for respect.
Looking at the era in which they played, these guys have been on a journey.
What made it undeniable that the NBA needed. The A, b, A from South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between. This is Get IN, the show focused on the Hoosier State and the incredible stories happening here today. I'm Nate Spangle, founder of Get INdiana, and I will be your host for today's conversation.
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My guest today is Michael Husain. He is a documentary filmmaker and media producer. He is the director of The Waiting Game, a 2024 film following an Indianapolis not-for-profit, the Dropping Dimes Foundation that was formed to help struggling a BA players as the nonprofit negotiates with the NBA to get them to step in and help these basketball legends.
We're gonna be talking about the growth of the A BA, the origin of the Indiana Pacers, and what happened to these A BA legends after the merger between the A BA and the NBA. I'm really excited, Michael, to have you here. Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Okay, so we're, I don't know, 20 minutes into knowing each other maybe, and I've already been enlightened about so many things when it comes to professional basketball and filmmaking in the state of Indiana.
Thus far, I'm really excited to unpack. How professional basketball really got a foothold here in Indiana. And your journey of making The Waiting Game, which is following these ABA legends that are now struggling to pay rent, struggling to provide healthcare for themselves. As we're getting into retirement age, this is gonna be a really interesting story.
So where does this all begin?
It begins, um, with the Dropping Dimes Foundation that you, you mentioned. Uh, I met one of the co-founders, a guy named Scott Tarter. Um, and, and he started telling me about this organization that he had co-founded with a, an eye surgeon here named Dr. John Abrams. And they were helping ABA players who were struggling.
And I'm thinking, you know, how in the world is professional athletes struggling, um, financially. And, uh, and he told me this story and, and that the a BA, um, which is where our Indiana Pacers began. So the, the background, the A BA was a. Rival league to the NBA from 1967 to 1976. And, uh, and they were way different than the NBA, they played with a red, white, and blue basketball.
Um, they embraced black culture in a way that the NBA didn't. Uh, they invented the three-point shot. Um, they embraced the slam dunk and it actually invented the slam dunk contest. No way. And you know, if you enjoy the entertainment factor of basketball player fashion. Cheerleaders on the professional level, uh, halftime shows, that's all came out of the A BA.
The NBA's origin story is less about the NBA itself than it is about the A BA.
Really?
Yeah.
Okay. So the a BA, these teams were the Nuggets, the Pacers, the Nets spurs, those are the original,
those are the four teams that in the, what's called the merger in 1976, when the two leagues combined. Mm-hmm. Those are the four teams that came in.
There were other teams. They were in Salt Lake City. They were in San Diego, they were in Virginia. They were in Miami.
Really? How many teams were there in total? Oh wow. The original A BA teams, there were 11. I have 'em here. Yeah. The Pittsburgh Pipers, the Minnesota Muskies, the Indiana Pacers. Shout out the Kentucky Colonels, New Jersey Americans.
And the Western Division was them. The New Orleans Buccaneers. The Dallas Chaparrals
Chaparrals
Chaparrals. Yeah. What the? The Denver Rockets. The Houston Mavericks. That doesn't sound very good. The Anaheim Amigos. And the Oakland Oaks.
Yes.
Wow.
Yeah, they were these crazy. And if you like, are into like retro fashion, if you look up some of those old like logos and try and find like T-shirts and sweatshirts, they're around.
But uh, um, they're really cool. Like old retro logos, they all
Wow. Okay. And then the original NBA teams, Boston Celtics, New York Knicks, Minneapolis Lakers, who are now the LA Lakers. Mm-hmm. Philadelphia Warriors now the Golden State Warriors. Rochester Royals. Now the Sacramento Kings. The Fort Wayne Pistons.
That's right.
No way. They're now the Detroit Pistons. Yeah. Syracuse Nationals are now the Philadelphia 76ers in the Tri-Cities Blackhawks now the Atlanta Hawks. That's crazy. Yeah. Those are the original NBA and a BA teams. Also, if you've, if anyone out there's ever seen Semi-Pro
Yes.
This is like, that's all about this.
Right? That's exactly right. And they get around the table and they're like, only four of us get to go or whatever. Jackie Moon is freaking out. Like, that's exactly, yes. But this, that made, that was a comedy rendition of this, this, this has serious implications for these former players.
It it does. And it's, it's been funny, like if you, if follow like the Reddit strings around our film and things, you know, you'll have people talk about, I, I know this story already.
I, I saw Semi-Pro. So, um, I, I love those. Uh, but it's, uh, it, it is a story that. At the beginning at least tries to, to celebrate the A BA. So there's a, there's an age line somewhere. Yeah. Um, let's just say 50 years old where people who are above 50, remember the ABA,
what year did the merger happen?
76.
Okay.
So 1976, the A BA and the NBA merge to become the NBA.
Correct.
And so immediately, what happens to those other seven teams that do not get picked up in the NBA
over the course of time? Um, it went from 11 teams and it might have grown to 13 and then shrunk to eight. The A BA was chronically underfunded.
Um, and so franchises would fold and move cities all the time. And, uh, we cover that in the film. But, uh, so by the end, there were only seven teams left. Uh oh. Of the ABA of the ABA.
So three were the really ones that got cut.
Yeah. So, um. One went out of business before the legal process could, could play out the Virginia Squires.
Uh, and if I got that right, I hope I get it. I hope I did. Uh, so there were two left. One in St. Louis and the Kentucky Colonels in Louisville, Kentucky got paid $3 million to step out of the way because there was a lawsuit going on and all the teams had to sign off. So the four teams were going to the NBA, they were good.
Kentucky says, I'll take 3 million and, and step away. The St. Louis guys, actually it was two brothers, said, we don't want the 3 million, um, but we will take, um, just a teensy percentage of future television revenues. Now in 1976, that was like a nickel. It was ti the, the part of the reason the A BA was struggling financially is they couldn't get a TV contract.
Um, and the NBA's TV contracts were terrible. Like if you were watching the NBA finals on tv, it was on tape delay. This wasn't the business that it is now. And so, uh, so they said we will take one seventh. There are seven teams left of the TV revenue of the four teams that are going in the four ABA teams that are going in.
So slice upon, slice upon slice,
one seventh of their And how many teams? Let's say there's 12 teams.
Yeah. There were four teams going in from the A base. So the pacers were nuggets and nets.
Okay.
Yeah. So T Ct C thing. Yeah. Uh, and their lawyer put in the phrase in perpetuity. Um, and so what at the, they were, instead of 3 million, they were probably looking, you know, at what feels like 30 bucks, um, to get out of the way.
So the NBA says, yeah, we'll take that deal. Um, and
because they just bet on the fact that the, this, that basketball was gonna grow in America.
Yes. And little did they know how much it was gonna grow. Well, they didn't necessarily see bird magic coming in and starting to invigorate the league. They didn't see Michael Jordan coming in.
Uh, they didn't see the dream team happening in 1992 to, in the Olympics, to really, you know, spur growth. And then it became, you know, it became not just a little tiny regional game, which is what professional basketball really was. No. It became global. And
yeah.
So those guys, um, ultimately they just got bought out finally, maybe four or five years ago.
Got close to a billion dollars.
Yeah, over a billion dollars. Okay. So the two brothers, Ozzie and Daniel Silna.
Yes.
They were the owners of the ABAs Spirits of St. Louis who made history's greatest sports deal. So they accepted a share of the NBA's TV revenue that would be. One seventh of those four teams TV deals?
Yeah,
in perpetuity when the A BA folded in 1976, that's what they say. Folded, merged, right? This netted them over 80. No, this netted them over $800 million by 2014. And then, oh, and this is also including a $500 million buyout from the NBA to end the perpetual payments.
Yeah.
So I guess you're right.
Close to a billion dollars, eight. That is like the greatest deal.
Yeah. They did nothing. They, they went out to their mailbox and collected a
check. You think about like Reggie Miller on TV and one seventh of the Pacers.
Yeah.
Well, you know, do the math there, but like, they were getting checks from Reggie Miller hitting.
Mm-hmm.
That's crazy. Yes. Those guys, I wonder what they're up to these days.
Is one of the brothers has passed the other still around,
dude. I mean, that is the greatest deal.
Yes.
Turns out betting on, betting on somebody else. There we go. Okay. So they, that gets St. Louis outta the way and then now Kentucky doesn't have professional sports team.
Well, I guess they have soccer, but like, you know, think of the, the biggest sports they take that $3 million and
Yeah, no, it was a good deal. They, um, the owner, John Y. Brown took that money and bought, uh, into the Buffalo Braves, which was an NBA franchise. Um, they then move, um, somewhere, I forget who they, I think they became the Clippers.
Mm. Okay. So,
so, you know, it worked out for them.
Yeah. Okay. This is crazy. So now those four a, b, a teams get into the NBA and are the players technically NBA players? Yes.
Or
yes. Okay.
So when, if, if you came into the NBA, you are an NBA player. Mm-hmm. Um, if you were one of the other, many other a BA players who didn't make it into, uh, an NBA franchise.
You're out here in kind of no man's land, there's no professional place for you.
And like what was, what were people making at this point in 75, 76?
Yeah, it's a great question because it becomes very important in our film. I is that when they started in 1967 or so, the average salary was probably somewhere between 10 and 15,000.
One of our sports writers that we interview, um, describes it, it's what a restaurant manager would make.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, and so, um, by the time the two leagues combined in 1976, there were a few players that had inched into six figures. Um, but that would be pretty rare. You know, you would be probably in, you know, 70, $80,000.
Um, so
Okay. That's, which is, at the time pretty's significant, it's not
bad money, but it's not a million, it's not 2 million, you know, it's not,
it's
not like generational wealth and you never have to work again. Ever.
Correct.
Okay.
Yes.
And with these players, you think about like each of these rosters carrying 10 to 11 people, maybe 15 at the max.
I don't know, but you think of. Seven teams becoming four that does leave three teams worth of players out there that are on the market.
Yes. And there were these player, these teams that had folded in the, the say the year prior. There were a lot of really good players that, that didn't make the transition.
Mm-hmm. Or they had played, you know, their, their seven, eight years in the ABA, their prime years. Um, and then their knees were getting shot or whatever. And
at this point were players associations a thing.
They were, and it's a, it's a great question and one we try and cover in the film quickly because, um, there's a lot to cover in it.
But, but, um, the A BA did have a player's union, um, and they had a pension plan. Uh, and so, but it was a really weak union and no leverage. Um, the league wasn't very wealthy and the players were even less wealthy. Yeah. Um, so the NBA Players Union was led by Oscar Robertson and Indie guy.
Yeah.
Um, and uh, and he was really smart and really aggressive about.
The power of the Union should assume so
because they're the product, right? Like without them there's nothing.
Exactly. Yeah.
And like technically, yeah, you're right. Without, you know, the league and all this stuff, there's, you know, they have no place to play basketball. But like, I think that's important. And I think that this was, uh, if I'm guessing right, it comes about to be very important.
Well, it does, because originally the two leagues were gonna combine the a BA was formed by a bunch of relatively small businessmen who wanted to be NBA owners, but the NBA wouldn't let 'em in. So they said, well just create a rival league and we'll create enough energy behind it that you'll have to let us in.
And, uh, and so the original merger was supposed to happen in 1971.
Why, why did, did they actually do that and create enough energy around the a BA
They did.
Was the product better for the
way
better?
As of like, what standard, how did you guys find out about that?
There's ways to look at it from a, from a, a pure business point of view.
It expanded the fan base, um, because they were playing a different kind of basketball, the kind of basketball that you can turn on your television and see today. Prior to that, let's say 1966, the year before the a BA very slow. Almost exclusively white, you know, methodical, like people were used still shooting set shots in, in 1966.
What are set shots
where you don't jump on your jumper? You Oh, you stand there with, you stand here and you push, you know? Oh,
wow.
It's like bad gym class stuff.
Yeah.
Um, so it was, it was not the most exciting game in the world. Yeah.
Well, and who was the pioneer? Like who, what person, what player really changed this?
I, I think a lot of people would look back into that era of basketball when Julius Erving, Dr. J.
Yeah.
Came in. He was an ABA guy. Um, he changed the game. He was, there had never been a player like him, um, in terms of just his athleticism, his grace. Um, he was, uh, just kind of beautiful to watch and, and, uh.
And so as Bob Costas, who we interviewed in the piece says, you know, you'd walk into a gym even if you weren't a fan, within two minutes, you'd say, who's that? And it's Dr. J. So he was Jordan before Jordan, yeah. So who was, you know, before LeBron
and when they this merger, what made it undeniable that the NBA needed the A BA?
They needed Dr. J. They were the, the ABA/NBA wasn't doing so great itself. Um,
who were the big NBA players at the time? In 1976?
1976. Um, you know, the Celtics were, were down a little bit then. Uh, they really didn't. Uh, you got John Havlicek. You've got, um,
okay. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is in there, but like Pete Maravich, uh, bill Walton.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. Yeah. But like I do remember, if you see all the highlights of Dr. J, it's just like athleticism and fun. And
it is
excitement.
So, you know, and, and so he really changed it, but there were a lot of guys around him that, that, uh, you know, as, as, uh, it's described in the film, the, the A BA, the NBA games at that point were, you know, more like, you know, 65 to 60, that would be your final score in the, in the ABA, they were averaging over a hundred points a game.
No
way. You know, so they, they moved, um, the fast break, the three-point shot, all those things that, that, that kind of make a game fun. Seems like nothing's ever outta reach. That's, um, that's the ABA and so. NBA needed an infusion of excitement. Um, and they needed this growing fan base that had come to, you know, it was like a cultural phenomenon.
Like you, you people would go to the fairgrounds here to watch the A BA Pacers. 'cause it was so much fun. I mean, at, at, they had a halftime show where they had a live bear come out and wrestle with people.
No way.
It was crazy.
That's, I mean, that, that is literally a scene from Semipro That's crazy.
Which they took from reality.
Dewey the bear that
happened at the fairgrounds
here. That's nuts at our fairgrounds.
Yeah.
That a live bear at an a BA game here at the Fairgrounds in Indianapolis, a live bear came out mm-hmm. And wrestled with people
at halftime
For that. What's going on there? That's crazy. I mean, that's exciting though.
And like at the time, this is Yeah, the sixties or late sixties, early seventies. Right. Um, yeah, that's ex And people had never seen stuff like that before.
Nor nor Sids
nor since True, true. That. Okay. So. It becomes evident that the production of the A BA. But why weren't they? So like, why weren't they making money?
Why weren't they like good business people?
Um, TV contract really is, that's what they needed the loan thing. Yeah. You, they, the, the money it takes to, to, you know, build a team, pay a team, travel a team, um, all those things. Uh, that's the TV money that really drives it. They had a few regional TV contracts, but they couldn't get a national one.
And, uh,
did you guys look into why
a, a little bit. We basically took it at face value that was, uh, you know, cost us, you know, from, from, from Bob Costas to other local historians. Everybody said, look, points at TV money as, as what was lacking.
Yeah. Okay. So the merger happens. What specific people are you following?
When I met Scott Tarter, the, one of the co-founders of Dropping Dimes, and, and he said, look, we've been trying to get the NBA to step in and help these guys because post 1976, they all thought. Outta outta the legal paperwork that brought the two leagues together. They thought they had a pension. They thought that healthcare, basic retirement stuff that anybody would expect, um, especially if you helped build a league.
And then that league became the baseline for incredible value growth with the NBA. Right? So there's no denying that, that baseline. And, and so, um, he said we've been negotiating with the NBA to try and get these guys some, some money, um, for, at that point, about 13 months. And, um, he said, you know, in about six weeks, I think we're gonna get the win.
I think we're gonna get them some money, which would've been the all star break of 2022. And so we agreed to, uh, that he agreed to let us follow him during that last six weeks. And we thought, I, I thought it would be a short film. I thought it'd be a 10 minute film and it would be a feel good. Um, and so.
We followed, February comes and goes. No announcement from the NBA, um, a month later. It's supposed to happen. It's supposed to be just, you know, just some legal Ts and DS cards
and like how many people are we talking about taking care of
at that point? 140,
140 people who were players in the A BA who had pensions and all of the retirement, but they did not become NBA players.
Correct. So they played at least three years, which is what would qualify you for an A BA pension or an NBA pension. Um, and, uh, they did not go into the NBA. Uh, that's correct.
So there's 140 of them, and this is, uh, his name's Scott.
Scott.
Scott is Indianapolis based.
Mm-hmm.
So Scott, how does he end up being the advocate for these people
because he and Dr.
Dr. John Abrams started this, this organization just to help them financially, John?
Well, how did they even hear about them in the first place?
Well, John, uh, Scott grew up an ABA fan on the east side. Um, and, uh, used to go to the games with his dad and it was a very t
watch The Bears Russell.
Yes. It was a core memory for him.
I don't know if he saw that game. Um, but, uh, and John had been a ball boy for the Pacers and has been the pacer's eye doctor for like 35 years. Um, so, uh, they, they met what ultimately was the catalyst. It was, they met Mel Daniels, who used to play for the Pacers and then became a scout and a, and an assistant coach for the Pacers, and is a legend.
Um, and he's in the Hall of Fame. And so, uh, Mel, who was a very forceful personality, if you ever met him, uh, six 10 Hope strong as an ox. Uh, he was, uh, he was a force. And, uh, and so he was very, very firm that these guys are struggling. I'm traveling around the country. I'm seeing them and meeting them. These are my brothers from the ABA and nobody's, nobody's doing anything for them.
You know, this is wrong. And so that's really kind of what got John and Scott together to actually try and do something. And so, um, they, they founded Dropping Dimes and were helping guys, like, you know, they were, they had been helped quietly helping guys. First guy that, um, came to the media's attention through the IndyStar and, and the writer of Data, Ben Dana Hunsinger Benbow there.
Um, it was a guy named Charlie Jordan who played for the Pacers. All he was asking for help for. To get a new suit to go to church. He felt underdressed and he couldn't afford a new suit. So Dropping Dimes got together and got Charlie a new suit.
Like what kind of jobs or careers did they have after their time in the NBA?
They're all over the place. Um, so
or the ABA,
so you know, Jimmy Jones, who was a six-time a BA Allstar, who we met and interviewed, and he lives out in Las Vegas now. Um, he was, he's driving an Uber now, right? He, he doesn't, he's still trying to make a
former a BA professional basketball player now drives Uber
in, in, in Las Vegas.
He's 77 years old. Um, and I
might've been in one of his rights before.
Yes, absolutely. He's a great guy
if we remember
it. But he worked in the school system there. Um, he sold cars, you know, they all took jobs here and there. Um, Ralph Simpson, who lives in Denver, who is also had some health struggles, like, you know, he very seriously considered not getting heart surgery because of the bills.
Um, Dropping Dimes ultimately helped him. Uh, he, uh, he was a coach for a, a small college for a little while. He pastored a church, so their, their careers have been all over the place.
Yeah.
So anyway, so Scott, um, is also an M&A lawyer, so Exactly. Mergers and acquisitions. So he was curious and started looking into the documentation.
'cause every guy that they were helping would come in and say, the paperwork is there. It says in the paperwork, we have a pension. How come we don't have our pension? That's basically it. And so Scott starts looking at the documentation and initially he's looking, he's like, you know, it does sort of seem like, it says that he winds up going through a process of trying to sort of figure out how does the NBA not understand its legal obligations here?
And it's a complex story. Um,
yeah, it seems like they remembered the one seventh of the TV contract. They didn't, they didn't skip over that detail.
No, no. But, um, but, and I, and I don't wanna give away too much of the film, but we follow Scott. Looking through those, that, that documentation coming to, you know, a conclusion that is, um, it's a little tough to swallow.
And, uh, and then also trying to sort of say to the NBA look beyond whatever the legal complications might be here. These are your legends. These are the pioneers of the game. They built everything that you guys are now profiting off of immensely and nobody cares if you're profiting off it immensely.
It's great that players get paid what they get paid. It's great that owners are, are, are billionaires. It's, it's, it's great that, you know, corporate partners are doing really well. Yeah, fantastic. Um, but don't forget these guys. Just don't forget 'em.
Yeah. And it's like, I don't know what a pension looked like in 19, but it's not like we're talking insane money like these guys,
$400 a month.
For each year of service. So if you, uh, that's what Dropping Dimes was asking
$400 a month for every, so like, let's say, how long was the A BA league?
Nine years.
Okay. So if the, are any of these 140 players, nine year players?
Yeah. Freddie Lewis, who played for the Pacers is
one of those guys. Okay. So 400 times nine, he's asking for $3,600 a month times 12.
How old is Freddie Lewis today?
He's gotta be close to 80.
Okay. He's 80. Let's say the average life expectancy is 87. Exactly. So he, he's a, he's asking for $43,000 a year. For the next seven years.
Mm-hmm. That's his. Yeah. And, and thankfully Freddy's still with us, but uh,
yeah, luckily, yeah. Right. Obviously you just like you're averaging, but yes, it, that's, that's $302,000 over the next seven plus years.
I mean, it's longer than you're under 500 K, but it's spread over a long period of time.
And, and
you know, well, probably back pay too. You should have been able to pull on their pension.
Yeah, but they won't, they weren't even talking back pay
No way.
No, they were just talking like start it now and, um, for, for
$3,600 a month.
Yeah. So, and some guys played just three years, right? Yeah. So I mean, it's the total package of what they were asking for, uh, the NBA to help with was $35 million, uh, in terms of scope. Um, and that's over the course of forever, right? That, that covers that actuarial table that you just just mentioned.
Nobody was stepping in and saying, yeah, we can afford that. Um, be now, if you had to give you some scope. Um, I think, and I could be wrong here, that the, the annual fines that the NBA collects every year, um, just for bad behavior is, uh, well over $35 million. And much of that money is designated for charity.
And, and so, uh, you know, the, the, the NBA itself, each franchise is worth between three and $10 million times 30 franchises. A billion dollars.
Yeah.
A
billion, yes.
Um, and so times 30 franchises, you can see just how incredibly large, um, the NBA is.
Yes.
And that's wonderful. No problem with it. Um,
I wonder though, if by like admitting to this though, that does open the door to like a bigger thing.
Like you have to have like a settlement, you know, like that's what it would have to be.
Well, and I think that that's a lot of what the negotiations wound up becoming is that, you know, you, Scott's a lawyer, um, he winds up talking to NBA, uh. Folks that are also, you know, lawyers or risk assessors of some sort.
And, and there's, you know, somewhere along the line there's, there's some nervousness that this is gonna open other doors, um, that the NBA doesn't wanna open. Mm-hmm. And, um, and you know, perhaps at your most risk averse, uh, uh, point of view is that could it put the NBA's own pension now in jeopardy if you sort of open it up and include these guys?
So, um, what ultimately happened was there were some, some, not
all, was this, is this gonna give away the end of the film?
In some ways, yes, but some ways no.
Okay,
cool.
Because we wanna have a reason for us to get out and mm-hmm. Or like go to, to watch this.
Yeah. So, um, the NBA did come up after a very, very long battle, which we follow a package of about $25 million.
So whittled away the 35 million to 25 million. And then we excluded some guys. If
some guys get excluded,
get excluded. So instead of 400 a month per year of service, it's $319 per year of service. Um, it
seems like a, just a bad PR move.
Sure does. Um, but
wow. And what will blow that when the final conclusion and like the end of the movie comes out, what will blow people's mind?
Like, what will people feel like after watching this?
You feel a little frustrated because, uh, uh, these guys were and are the legends of the game, right? And they're dying. Right. And so, you know, Dana, in one of her articles with the IndyStar, you know, quotes a guy named Frank Card during these negotiations and saying, you know, it feels like the NBA is just waiting for us to die.
And then the problem goes away. It feels like they're playing the actual, the actuarial table. And that's really kind of one out, one aspect of what the title of The Waiting Game is about. It's not only about these guys waiting for their pension, um. It's about waiting for respect and, and it's about the vast majority of these guys, um, were black.
And so, um, when you start then looking at the era in which they played the, you know, the, the waiting for full rights recognition. Yeah. You know, there's a, these guys have been on a journey.
Did you sit through uncomfortable conversations or like hard conversations?
Yes.
Did any of those stick out to you that, like, that like changed you in maybe the way you perceive how the A BA was treated or how the NBA has grown or anything like that?
I, I think the, the hardest ones were the, with the guys who were struggling, like, you know, um,
like give us a, an example of someone who's not in a good, like, obviously talked about a new suit for church, but
there are a couple of guys who have passed and they're, they're, one of them is very meaningful. Um, he, he passes, um, uh, from throat cancer in Las Vegas and he, he's sort of a catalyst for like how things really got.
Into the public knowledge.
Yeah.
But, um, Ralph Simpson, who lives in Denver, um,
and you fly out to Denver and have this conversation with Ralph.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we, you know, we went out and met with Jimmy Jones in, in Las Vegas. Um, and, and Jimmy's a, Jimmy's just a positive energy guy. And so, um, while it clearly he's struggling driving his Uber, um, and, and he's got, you know, a little bit of edge to him about like, Hey, it, it feels like you took my money.
Um, uh, Ralph is a kind of a quiet, humble guy and he's the guy who pastored a church for a while. And, you know, he talks about, look, when you're a championship athlete, everything is, you know, self-actualization, right? It's how hard you work and what you're able to achieve. And you're very much a believer in yourself and what, what you can achieve.
And so when you get to this stage of life and you are afraid to have heart surgery 'cause you can't afford it, um, it's an incredible hit to your pride.
Yeah.
And so, um, that these guys are having to put pride and, and aside, um, and ask for help. Really, really hard, hard for anybody to ask for help. Yeah. But, uh, maybe extraordinarily hard for somebody who, who came up like that,
what would your pitch be for people and, and how can they check out The Waiting Game?
So the waiting Game is, um, an independent film, so, right. So I've, I've, I've done work for, you know, ESPN's 30 for 30 or other,
which, which 30 for 30 did you work on?
Uh, it's actually a, a little bit of an a, b, a story. Oh. It's called, uh, slick Nancy and the Telethon, it's, um, uh, a film about in 1977. So a year after the merger, um, the, the teams that went into the NBA, the pacer spurs, nuggets and nuts, they all had to pay like $3 million to get into the NBA.
And then they didn't get television money for several years. They, they were a number of sort of things attached to that deal that was, they sort of hurt a, b, a franchises that were coming into the NBA.
You really like A-B-A-N-B-A? Is that, that's kind of like your forte.
Well, it, it's turned into that, but it's just because, I mean, these stories are incredible.
This is the Save the Pacers telethon.
Yes.
Right? Yeah. Oh, I've heard about this thing.
So in 1977, the Pacers were in the summer were essentially outta money. They'd paid 3 million to go in. They didn't have enough to make payroll past two weeks. And so Nancy Leonard and Slick Leonard kind of ran the team.
Slick was technically the general manager as well as the coach, but Nancy did all the work. And so Nancy was, her title was Assistant general manager, but you could say she was the first general MA female general manager. In professional sports.
That's awe. This is a staple. A uh, Indiana has had female executives in sports for a long time.
Yes, they
have. Okay, so this is Nancy Leonard.
Yeah. So Nancy comes up with the idea, like, I don't know what we're gonna do, but uh, 'cause we need to get to October when ticket sales actually happened for our product and basketball.
Yeah.
So we gotta get from July to October and we got no money. The banks are tapped out, they're not gonna give 'em any more money, no more loans.
So they just said, I, let's have a telethon, let's see if people will support us. And so for 16 hours on what used to be Channel 4, uh, the independent station here, um, they had jugglers come out. They had athletes manning the phones. Um, they had kids riding around, bringing in their piggy banks, dropping money.
No
way. And people were buying season tickets in advance. Um, and so, uh, after. Like 16 hours, uh, right. Literally 10 minutes before they were supposed to go off the air, they hit the magic number that they needed to hit and, and save the Pacers. And because they did otherwise, the Pacers would've left town.
And if the Pacers left town in 1977, the Colts probably don't come. Um, what
year did the Colts come?
81 ish
uk.
Um,
wow.
You know,
yeah. Okay. So I'm reading the Save the Pacers telephone began on the night of July 3rd, 1977. And on July 4th, 10 minutes before it was set to conclude, it was announced that team officials had reached the 8,000 ticket goal in part because of Yeah, the telethon, the Pacer's average attendance jumped from 76, uh, 7,615 people during the 76 77 season to 10,982 during the 77 78 season.
Wow.
Yeah. No, and that's, uh, it's a testament to how people will help other people here in Indiana. And uh, but you know, the idea now of, uh, telethon to help a professional sports franchise seems, seems crazy.
Do, do you think that's why there's such like loyalty and legacy in like, the history of these places
for older fans?
Yeah. You know, like you, there's probably plenty of kids out there that remember taking their piggy bank to try to, you know, buy season tickets to the Pacers.
Yeah.
To save, save their team.
They just, yeah. They were just bringing in money, you know? Yeah. It's just like they knew the team needed help, so let me help.
That's crazy.
So,
uh,
so
anyway, so that, that was a cool one to do. Yeah, that was, yeah. So what was it called? Slick Nancy.
Slick, Nancy and the Telethon.
Slick, Nancy and the Telethon. That was season. Uh, what's that? What season of uh,
uh, 20 15, 20 16, something like
that. Season seven, episode four of 30 for 30 shorts.
Okay, come on. That's awesome.
Yeah, so
very cool.
Um, so anyway, I'd done a lot of that sort of work. You were asking about where to see the
film and, and that's all like uplifting, like enlightening, like positive.
Yes. I mean, that one is, um, you know, it, it used to be, and, and I did a lot of, uh, different work with, with ESPN or A&E or lots of the sort of Yeah.
Uh, cable folks. Um, but, um, you know, this is an independent film, so it doesn't have that backing behind it.
Yeah.
And so it's, uh, you know, then it, and we've, and, and the universe has changed in terms of, uh, you know, you're no longer, no longer watching cable, very much you're, you're streaming. And, uh, and so, uh, streamers prior to the pandemic were very aggressive about being able to put on lots and lots of content.
Let's just fill this all up, um, and give you the massive amount of choice. Um, since the pandemic, um, the entire film industry has contracted and, uh, streamers are extremely, extremely conservative at this point. Um, you know, the documentaries that you're going to see on a streaming service basically fall into two or three categories.
They're star driven, so it's, uh, it's a musician or an actor or an athlete, a, a Steph Curry, you know, or a Michael Jordan is involved in, in the piece. So it's easily promotable, um, or it's a crime story, or it's something just kind of lured a, a cult or something like that. That's about it, right? Because it's, it's, it's very easy to promote those things.
Um, so independent films, um, ones that take on, um, subjects that might make you a little uncomfortable, um, like, you know, your favorite games business model, not supporting, its, its legends. Um, those are hard. It's harder to find a home for. And so the film, we've self distributed through community screenings.
We've done tons of community screenings around the country and a BA cities, and we've, we've shown it around here several times. Um, but um, you can find it on our website, the, thewaitinggamemovie.com. It's, it's there for, um, you can, you can watch it there. Or what we're deciding to do, we, being my brother and I, um, is that we're just gonna start our own streaming service.
There's not a home for films like this. And I'm, I'm on the board at Heartland Film Festival, so I, I mean, I see, and I've gone to lots of film festivals with this and other films that, um, there are lots and lots of really, really good films, um, that people oughts see that are chronically under distributed.
So we're gonna make sure that those films that didn't find a home, um, are gonna have a home. And so. It's called The Reelist, R-E-E-L-I-S-T. Um, the Realist Indie Film Club, uh, it's reelist.stream is the URL and, uh, we launch, uh, February 1st, and it is essentially a film of the month club. So we, we will offer two films per month, but we are going to, it's only 24 films a year.
Each one is going to be an event. Um, so you're gonna meet the filmmakers, there's gonna be a live q and a with each film. It'll be recorded, so if you miss it, you can go back and, and watch it behind the scenes content. Um, uh, deleted scenes, uh, lots of of ways to interact with filmmakers as artists. So if you're the type of person who, um, likes independent things, likes, um, you go to an art fair, um, you like to meet the photographer or the painter, um, you will drive an extra mile to buy local.
Yeah. Um. You're probably our kind of person.
Yeah.
And so, uh, if you wanna support independent film, this will be a place to do so and it'll be a lot of fun. So our two promises to people is, you know, you're gonna pay a subscription fee, it's 15 bucks a month. Um, in that we're gonna deliver you two really good films, um, and, and an experience around it.
So you meet the filmmaker and we celebrate the filmmaker. Second thing is we wanna make sure filmmakers get paid. I know a lot of film folks who are leaving the business because it's so hard to to, to make it Yeah. These days. And so we're gonna pay filmmakers to be on the platform first and foremost.
They don't have to worry about a per click thing where they don't make any money. Um, and then secondly, um, we want the audience, our subscriber base to be active. We don't want you to be passive, we want you to be, this is streaming with a purpose. Yeah. And so, uh, um, we want you to vote on the three best films you saw every quarter.
And if you do, then we're gonna pay filmmakers. We're gonna double the money we paid them to, to be on the platform. If they're the audience choice award winner, if they're coming second place, we'll we'll match it. And even in third place, we're gonna give 'em a meaningful amount of money. So the idea is a virtuous circle.
Like you subscribe to get great films, you get great films, you know, a lot of your subscription money goes back to filmmakers so they can make the next film.
I love that. How long have you been thinking about doing this?
We're gonna launch and we've been about, we've been developing for about 10 months.
Wow. I, I do feel the more people in the film industry I talk to is hard, like super to, there is a select amount of like, make it to the top and like build these, you know, Hollywood films or whatever. Yeah. But, uh, I, I talked to the guys at Pegasus. Mm-hmm. And, um, it's hard.
Yes.
You know, like getting to 'cause the business model of it.
Like, you basically have to raise investors to like go out and build this film and then sell it to a. Like studio or something.
Well, on, on feature films like what Pegasus is doing. Yeah. Um, yes. Um, but in documentary world, there's a couple different ways that you can do it. Um, so for The Waiting Game, for instance, I self financed it.
Remember I thought it was a short, I thought, oh, I can afford to shoot for a few weeks. And
did you like get into it? And you're like, oh my gosh. Like, we have to keep going.
Yes. And so that's where, you know, artists and I, I would consider myself at at heart an artist. Um, that's where artists are stupid. And so
passion.
It's
just a passion. It is passion, yeah. But any business person would look at it and say, what are you doing? Um,
yeah. And that's hard. I think that when you have a vision and you start to get in there and you're genuinely curious
mm-hmm.
Like you're overturning these stones and you're like. Well, we can't tell a shitty story.
We gotta go all the way to the end.
Well, and these guys have been shit on for a long time and they're not getting their due. So unless we call attention to this, they're not going to.
How do most documentary filmmakers survive?
Um, well, hopefully it used, the old model used to be that you could get yourself a distribution deal, you could stream it and then, you know, there were some ancillary things you could try and get it shown on airplanes or on military bases, or you, you know, back in the day there were DVD sales and and things like that.
But the many of those things are gone now. So, um, so the other way you can finance, so the film I did prior to The Waiting Game, um, I worked with a partner and, uh, Lisa Hall, and she and I, we fundraised. Um, and so you went to foundations, you went to high net worth individuals, um, that sort of thing who came together to, you know, give us our basic budget and then we were able to make it.
So, but even that, there's not really. Profit in that. That's just, this is what it takes to make this.
Yeah. Wow. Hard business.
Mm-hmm.
That's crazy.
Yeah. It's passion driven for sure.
Yeah. Where can people stream it right now? Because obviously Yeah, February is when
The Reelist comes. Yeah. The Reelist comes in, The Waiting Game will be the flagship film.
It'll be the first film.
Heck yeah.
Uh, and, and then we've got other films,
so we cannot watch it right now.
You can, the, the, where you can watch it now is at thewaitinggamemovie.com.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and there's a link there. It's 10 bucks to watch it.
Yeah.
Please help us.
Yeah. I'm just, well, we're gonna watch, we're gonna live React.
We're gonna like live. Watch the trailer right now.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Go.
So like, I want to, I want to feel it of like why we need to go and check this out
all.
The A BA was like a fraternity and almost like a secret fraternity, both ridiculous and sublime, and it was underrated. We knew that the larger basketball world did not fully appreciate how good this was.
They were slam dunking the three-point shot that was all the ABA.
Today's NBA game is 100% an iteration of what the A BA players started in 1967.
You are talking about multibillion-dollar enterprise, you know, players who got screwed and I, I don't think that is a wrong that'll ever be righted.
It's like you cheated people out of their money. I mean, how else can you say it?
He's just the beginning. A b, a players lying under bridges, sleeping, homeless.
Most of the players at the time were showing me redacted pages. What exactly happened at 1976 when the two leagues combined?
We're finding out things that we weren't even aware of. It was really a biblical story of David versus Goliath. I mean, we were three guys that took on the billion dollar NBA industry.
There are these former players out there who set the table at which you have people today making 30 and $40 million a year. What are we going to do for them? Because this is bigger than basketball. What are you going to do?
Wow, that's intense.
It is intense. Uh, I mean, it's, it's amazing story. You know, Costa's got his start, um, calling a BA games for the Spirits of St. Louis. Those, those Silna brothers. Um, but uh, you know, it was such a fun thing, such an influential thing in the long term. Nobody knew it then. Um, and then for them to be just left out of this, just forgotten.
Ridiculous.
I'm very intrigued of how like, following along this journey and of, um, Scott.
Mm-hmm.
Like hi, like taking on the NBA. That's crazy.
A lot of personal sacrifice for him. Yeah. Like he, he really becomes the, the protagonist in our story because you're watching this guy who really added nothing more than love of the game.
Right. He went to the games with his dad and, and, and just enjoyed the A BA so much. Um, and growing up on the east side, he grew up poor on the east side. His dad worked at Ford, his journey and, and you know, and Dropping Dimes was there too, as an organization. We focused more on Scott 'cause he was the lawyer.
Um, and this is as a business legal ethics kind of story.
Yeah.
He's kind of the hero.
What's the key to making a great documentary? What does it take from a creator and an artist perspective?
A few things. Um, you need, you know, a lot of times you'll hear like, that's a great story that's happening, but, you know, it's sort of how do you then package it for a, um, an audience, right?
An audience in, in, just like a feature film needs conflict, right? So you need some struggle that is happening. You need somebody navigating that struggle. The struggle is, uh, with, as a filmmaker is always, um, who can we identify with? Who can we relate with? Early on, I really thought it was gonna be a player.
You know, that seems like the most logical thing. Um, and what we realized was that the struggle is there. They're the victim, but the, the active member here, the active guy who's trying to drive some change, is Scott representing Dropping Dimes?
Do you have to have fluid perspective of like, you have a vision for it, but then it might, you're willing to be fluid and it, like it can take on any aspects?
Yes. Um, you know, we, we figured out a lot as we were going here. So this is sometimes it's a straight historical doc. You're gonna follow the slick Nancy and the telethon thing that was done, a complete story. We kind of knew what it was. Nancy became the, the, the driving force in it. Um, in this piece, uh, it was.
A bit of a follow doc. So we're seeing this thing unfold as it unfolds, and we didn't quite know which way it was gonna go. Uh, and so we learned things along the way. And even after the NBA did come through with some money, we went out and interviewed, uh, CJ McCollum, who was the head of the current NBA, not the retired guys, the current NBA Players Association.
Um, and you know, what CJ talked about, uh, was that he had learned of the story through one of Dana's articles, basically, and then it, it's within the film, you'll understand it completely, but it's, um, when he learned of it, Dropping Dimes had been negotiating with the NBA League office for maybe 18 months.
CJ hears about it basically via his Twitter feed, um, and it's like, whoa, we gotta do something here, like the right response. Yeah. And uh, um, and once he does. It's a matter of weeks before, um, something happens. But, you know, we didn't know that, but we didn't understand how this had happened.
Yeah. You didn't know that was gonna hit his Twitter feed too, like
didn't know and didn't even know he had made those calls.
Those were all behind the scenes. Um, so, you know, we learned that it changed our story
and IndyStar Dana ends up being like the person who first uncovers this to get things moving. Yeah. Well it's like obviously Dropping Dimes is a thing. Mm-hmm. But like first brings it into the public
eye. Yeah. So you got this good work happening by a small not-for-profit.
They're not getting much attention. Um, Dana starts covering it. The indie star is also part of the Gannett system. So some of her stories go national, so she's the amplifier. Um, and once it becomes amplified to the point where it's a, it's a problem for the NBA or, you know, they start talking with Dropping Dimes.
Yeah, let's, let's work together. But it's a slow walk. Um, then that amplification hits again and you know, it bursts. The bubble that surrounds the head of the players union.
That's
crazy. And, um, he says, you know, yeah, these are our, these are our brothers, you know, let's, let's try and help 'em.
Yeah.
Um, so like, you know, all these things unfold and you don't know that they're gonna unfold.
Um, the night that the announcement was supposed to happen, we were, we, we were filming with the team from Dropping Dimes and it seemed like it was gonna blow up again. Like we, it's a, it's a significant scene within the film. Yeah. Um, that we're watching them in this little microcosm being told to wait again and again and again.
Like, they just, it, it's, it's amazing how many times it repeats itself.
I'm excited. Um, you're gonna get my $10. I'm gonna watch this. This, I mean, seems like a great time and, and I'm excited also the work you're doing on the supporting independent filmmakers. I think that, uh. That is a piece where the art is, I mean, maybe a little bit more of the fun side.
Mm-hmm. Creating that is like, you know, you're, you're an artist, and then figuring out the business side of how to be able to continue to fund those can be challenging.
Yeah.
Any other final words on The Waiting Game and why people should go check it out?
Um, I, I, I think you'll see a lot of your heroes, um, and, and you know, people who, who really were super influential.
Maybe if you're younger, you'll, you'll see people who are, who influenced the players you watch now. Yeah. Uh, you know, and you need to think about, like, guys like Steph Curry, you know, don't exist. He's a three-point legend, right. It doesn't exist without the A BA, um, you know, the A, the A BA, like another small thing, the A BA did is like, they, they would take guys right out of high school, more or less, like they didn't, didn't have the whole hardship rule.
Um, and there's a famous Supreme Court case that an ABA guy actually went and won at the Supreme Court to create the ability to leave college and go earn your money. Um, and so. Guys who came right outta high school, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, um,
that came from the ABA, that, that rule came out of the ABA.
And so that's four extra years of income these guys got as of the A, b, A, right? So I mean, it's like so many of these things came outta the, a free agency essentially came out of the A BA. So the guy, the way the guys negotiate money now, free agency, that was Oscar Robertson saying, um, we want to be able to leave our contracts at, at some point.
You know, and that, and the way he leveraged that was saying, if you don't do that, we'll just go over to the A BA, essentially. Essentially that's what was happening.
Wow. Incredible. Um, I'm excited to check it out. I think there's a lot to learn about that. And obviously if you're a Pacers fan, this is gonna be great.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Um, amazing. Well, we've come to the part of the show where we talk all things Indiana. This question is brought to you by our friends at JC Hart. They're a leader in creating enjoyable living experiences at apartment communities all across Indiana and beyond. Check them out at home is jc hart.com.
My question for you, Michael, why do you call Indiana home?
I grew up in Terre Haute. Uh, it is.
Okay. North, south or West Vigo.
West Vigo, baby.
Go Vikings.
Yes. Come on now. Nice. How did you know? Very
good. Oh, I'm the mascot guy. Come on. All right. Fun. Grew up in Terre Haute.
Grew up in Terre Haute. Um, that's, that's where my soul is.
Uh, my wife's from Chicago. She makes fun of me from being from Terre Haute. I still love it. So I, um, I definitely left for a while and was able to grow professionally. But you follow your heart, which I do a lot in my work. Um, my heart's here.
Why did you come back?
Family, uh, was, was, is very central in my life and I still had a lot of family here and I had a lot of friends.
I went to iu so, uh, we were thinking about starting a family, uh, ourselves, my wife and I. And uh, and it was like, this is a place where I would feel safe. Yeah. And feel like they could grow in a, in a community that would embrace them.
Where was the moment in your life you knew you were gonna get into film?
I don't know if I knew I was gonna get into film. I guess I thought I wanted to go into broadcast journalism. I thought I wanted to be in news. Um, I, I was the yearbook photographer in school. Yeah. I was always kind of interested in, in kind of three things, you know, words, pictures, and music. Those were the, the things that I loved.
I didn't exactly know how they'd all come together. Um, and then I, I kind of figured out, I guess probably through failure. Uh, is I, I did go into, uh, I studied broadcast journalism at IU and I went into news and within months absolutely hated it. Um, the stories were short. I thought it was, um, um, not as noble as I thought it might be.
Like I do not like how journalists are, um, characterized as sort of, you know, uh, sort of an evil media thing, perhaps at the billionaire level That's true. But the boots on the ground that virtually everybody I have ever met in news or otherwise that are journalists, they care about the truth.
Yeah.
They care about it.
They have an honor about it. And so anyway, I didn't like it and, uh, it didn't fit me. And so I, I, I went on a little bit of a journey to figure out how to do longer form stuff. Yeah. And, uh, uh, that led me to documentary work and film work. But, uh, so I don't know if it was a moment as, as much as it was a journey.
Did you grow up a basketball fan?
I did.
Who was your favorite basketball player?
I did love Dr. J. I really did. Um, you know, with the Pacers at that point, um, they were so fun to watch, but we lived in Terre Haute, so it was like a really fuzzy signal that you would get on Channel 4 to try and watch them.
I'd loved Darnell Hillman and Roger Brown from those a BA Pacers. I was very young at that point. Um, and then as the, as the NBA grew it and you know, I then became probably my first basketball hero was Larry Bird because I was in Terre Haute when he was playing in college.
Yes sir.
And so we went to games all the time and was
that sick?
It was awesome. And then he became, his senior year, he was a physical educationucationucationucation major. He had to have like some teaching experience to graduate. He came to my high school and he was like an assistant coach on the baseball team. And I got to, I was. Part of the student newspaper. I got to interview him for the student newspaper.
No way.
I was in the middle school at that point. Um, so, um, our hi, our school newspaper, the Trojan Torch. Um, we, uh, we had the exclusive 'cause if you're, if you were alive at the time, bird was really shy, uh, at that point. And so he had made it all the way through his senior year where they went to the national championship game, so he wouldn't talk to the press.
So New York Times couldn't get an interview with him, but right there at the Trojan Torch, we nailed him.
It was How, how did that end up the middle school? You were like in middle school.
Yes.
And you, you nailed it. That's sick. I mean, and talk about a moment that knew you wanted to get into media, like Yeah.
Right.
Getting the exclusive with Larry Bird for the Trojan Torch, baby. Oh, incredible. All right, Michael, we've come to the final three questions of the show. So we get to talk all things Indiana, you traveled the country putting The Waiting Game together. If you could shout it from the rooftops and tell the entire United States of America, what's something the world needs to know about Indiana.
You will be stunned by the backbone of people in Indiana, um, very easy to, um, overlook them. Um, they don't, in generally general Hoosiers, I don't think beat their chest. Um, and, uh, which is, you know, if you're a, an east coaster, you know, you'll recognize that that sort of energy outta New York or Philly, um, and it's fun.
I, I, I enjoy those places, but if you come to Indiana, there is a, there is a quiet strength and, um, certainty that, uh, that people live their lives by. Yeah,
I love that. That's so true. I cannot. Say that in any better. That's great. Next, this is where you get to shed some light on a place or a thing more people need to know about.
What is a hidden gem in Indiana,
a little bit biased 'cause I'm on the board of the Heartland Film Festival, which supports independent filmmakers and I'm a film guy. Um, but Heartland is a relatively well known thing here. Um, and it's been around for 35 years. Not a lot of festivals are like that, but they, they got so many independent short films coming in the door that in 2018 they started Indy Shorts.
It's a separate film festival that runs for five days in the summertime in July. Usually it is, it has become in, what is that, five, six years? Seven years math's? Not my strong, yeah, we
don't do public math.
It's okay. Um, it has become one of the top short film festivals in the world. Um, it is constantly called one of the top 25 film festivals, coolest film festivals in the world.
Um, but it is, if you win the. Your category. If you win the, the award for best short film or best short documentary, you're Oscar-qualified. Um, you can, you know, foreign films can be qualified for the British Academy Awards, BAFTA. Um, it's uh, it's extremely high profile. We've had Oscar winners coming out of this festival, qualified out of this festival, um, that have gone on to win the award.
Oh. Way. Um, yeah, I mean, it is an amazing festival. It's a place where you can see films that you know, and shorts are sort of classically under, under distributed as well. So these short films are really, really cool. And, um. Uh, Indy Shorts is one of the best places in the world to catch 'em.
That's amazing. I love that.
Finally, you get to share the love and talk to us about someone else who's making a big impact, who's a Hoosier. We need to keep on our radar, someone who's doing big things.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna go back to the roots. I'm going back to Terre Haute. Um, the mayor of Terre Haute is a guy named Brandon Sakbun.
He's, uh, um, I don't even think he's 30 years old yet.
29.
There you go. Let you
know him. Previous guest of the pod, we'll link it down in the show. He is phenomenal Army veteran IU graduate.
Mm-hmm.
And like one of the youngest mayors out of, I mean, 50 Terre Haute's almost like over 40,000 people, isn't it?
Well, we got well over
58.
58,000. Holy cow.
And hopefully we're going the right direct. We're growing.
Yeah. He's a good dude.
He's a, he, I mean, he's super impressive and, uh. Um, uh, I also learned recently that he's also was in the same fraternity I was at IU about, you know, a hundred years apart,
just a hundred. There we go. I love that.
Yeah, Mayor Sakbun is awesome. I definitely recommend going and checking out that episode. We do a little bit on the history of Terre Haute. We talk into what's coming next down the pipeline and just like people will be excited about living out there and, and he has a good vision for what's coming down the, the pipe for Vigo County.
So I love it. Michael, it's been a pleasure getting to learn all about The Waiting Game. Uh, I'm really excited to check this out and learn about. This journey fighting the NBA on behalf of the a BA players and their retirements that are, they're not getting any younger. I think that it's gonna be an awesome journey and I'm excited to check it out.
Thank you for all the work that you're doing there and the work to support independent filmmakers across the country. I'm excited. The Reelist,
The Reelist
comes out in February. Yeah. So if you are a, a film junkie and you're looking to get 24. 24 independent films a year to a month. That's a, that's a great, I mean, what for 15 bucks?
That's a great deal.
15 bucks a month. It, well, 'cause they're gonna be really funny. It's, you're gonna get to be able to ask the filmmakers questions. Uh, it's similar to the film festival experience. Yeah. It's just virtual.
I love it, man. Hey, keep up the good work and we'll talk to you soon.
Thank you so much for having
me.
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