Why College Sports May Never Be the Same

Every athlete that's a college athlete making all this money and has all these NIL deals and a vast majority of them do not. It's like all these kids don't have to like stay true to their community. Like it doesn't matter. It's like the wild west, like who knows what's going on. It's a puzzle. You know, sometimes there's complex matters and you still gotta think and you know AI is not gonna do that for you completely.

Where was the moment when you saw where on the forefront of this huge storm that's brewing? From South Bend to Evansville and everywhere in between. This is Get IN, the show focused on the Hoosier State and the incredible stories happening here today. I'm Nate Spangle, founder of Get Indiana, and I will be your host for today's conversation.

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Order online at greekspizzeria.com or stop in and grab a pie hot from the oven. That's Greek's Pizzeria. Indiana's Hometown Pizza since 1969. My guest today is Kelleigh Fagan, and she's a pioneer in collegiate sports law who built CCHA's sports law practice. It is developed into a nationally recognized practice serving universities, colleges, student-athletes, and coaches all across the country.

She's a decorated attorney honored with recognition such as IBJ 40 under 40 back in 2023, Indiana Lawyer Up and Coming Lawyer in 2019, and the University of Indianapolis Distinguished Young Alumni Award in 2024. I'm also joined by David Holt. He is the COO of CCHA. He leads operations, HR, marketing, and technology.

As the 145-year-old firm enters a major era of expansion, including. Hiring 35 attorneys in the last four years and adding new office locations. I'm really excited to dive into the evolution of what's happening with business and college sports. Kelleigh, you are an expert in the field here. You built this practice from the ground up, literally zero to hero, nationally recognized.

I'm excited to dive into what's going on and how Indiana continues to be at the epicenter of athletics. Welcome to the show, y'all. Thank you. Thank you, captain. Alright, so for those that, that's all gonna get edited to sound very pretty, I just totally wobbled my way through the intro here, but I am really excited to talk today.

It's gonna be a ton of fun. You are both experts, uh, in things around students and athletes, right? So David has, uh, retired career 23 years in public education. Public education. Yep. And Kelleigh, you are a college athlete, correct? Yep. I was a college golfer. College golfer. Heck yeah, just for one year though.

Until an injury. You were, yeah, he was a college golfer too. Holy smokes. What we need to start with is identifying where the idea of a sports law practice came from and where you identified that, hey, the market needs. This, they need to know like the, the evolution of college sports is coming quickly and we need to get out in front of this.

Yeah, I wish, I wish I could say that I saw that evolution coming and was like, yeah, we need this. But it was really from, you know, I was an athlete growing up and I love sports and I had a very influential high school government teacher that made me interested in, in law and I went to college thinking I want to figure out a way to put these two things together in my professional career and, um, go to law school and I.

Thought at first I wanted be a sports agent, and then I realized, oh, it's not really what I wanted to do. There's a lot more. What drew you into wanting to be a sports agent? Like why'd you think that was the thing? I thought that was what you did with a law degree and a sports background. I didn't know that there was anything of anything different.

I didn't know you could be a sports lawyer. I didn't know that that was a thing. Did you like, uh, like watch any of those shows and you're like, oh, I can do that. You know, like, yeah, like, like Entourage. You're like Ari Gold. Like, oh yeah, that could be me. I think Entourage may have turned me off, to be honest.

Oh, that's fair. I mean, yeah, he is a polarizing character for sure. Yeah. Okay, so then you realized that you don't wanna do that. So I realized I didn't wanna be an agent and it was really because I got an, I, I only played college golf one year. I had a wrist injury, which is difficult from a golf standpoint.

Yes. So I, um, continued to work in the athletics department at University of Indianapolis and, um, had a mentor there who connected me with somebody at the NCAA and that's when I started to work at the NCAA and see this world of. College sports law. What were you doing at the NCAA? So at first I was just doing an internship as an undergrad in their ex, in their enforcement department.

Um, which is, what does that mean? So enforcement is the group that goes out and investigates potential rules violations by schools. Every committee or job within the NCAA Seems so, just like daunting. Like the enforcement committee? Yeah, the enfor, like I worked in enforcement. It's like you're showing up like, hey, not, 'cause what year is this?

So this is 2009, 2010. Oh yeah. This is like. Like, no, you can't buy dinner. Like you can't. Oh, yeah. Like, there's nothing you can do. You get them a t-shirt at the wrong time and it's, they're outta here. Yeah. Wow. And, and I wasn't doing much of the enforcing, I was so low on the ladder. I was help supporting the investigators that were going out and doing the interviews and going on campus.

And, but I thought that is really fun. And that might be a way to combine my law back or, you know, my interest in law and my interest in sports. Yeah. Is it like, kind of like, like you're diving into the investigation of like, okay, did, did Johnny Manziel go into a hotel room and sign $10,000 or 10,000 autographs for 50 grand or, yeah, those are the kind of things, like my first project was, was researching potential academic mis misconduct at an Ivy League institution of like, cheating by the athletes in their academics that then would've made them ineligible.

So it was, it, it was really it one really, and you're an undergrad yourself. You're an intern at this time. Yeah. You're kind of like. That'd be hard to like, you know, look in and look, look at your peers and look, look into their cases and be like, come on. Like, yeah, like, come, we're not, let's do, let's be honest here.

What are we doing? Yeah, I, I was probably, uh, you know, as a division two student-athlete, so we, that, that's a different life than being a division one athlete. And we were just there to play sports and go to school and so we, we didn't have all the attention on us that, you know, that I, that the division one athletes often get.

So I had probably a different perspective on it. Yeah. So you do the internship and then do you end up working there after graduating? So then I had a gap year, or I had a year between undergrad and law school. So I worked, continued to work at the NCAA as just essentially a contractor knew, knowing I would be leaving, but made great relationships with people there.

Went to law school, law school's three years, went through that, did a few more where at. Um, IU McKinney. Nice. Okay. And continued to stay in touch with, with folks. Did a, an internship at CCHA, um, at another firm in Indianapolis. And then I thought I might go back to the NCAA and then I re and then a lot of the people that I had worked with had left and moved on to other things and I didn't wanna go back.

There had, had been at CCHA, which was, which I grew up in Noblesville, so I've known this firm since I was a kid. Mike Antrim, the Antrim, he, his wife taught me preschool. So like I've, I have a lot of fondness for the firm. Respect. That is like a, such a Noblesville thing too, like Yeah. You know, sister's, brothers, husband down the road, like was my high school basketball coach or whatever.

Okay. Respect. And so I was like, well, maybe they'll let me start a sports practice that's on that, where I'm not investigating the schools, but I'm defending the schools that the NCAA is now investigating. Mm. There were, there weren't that many firms that were doing that, um, at, at the time, and there weren't any in Indiana that were really doing that.

And like, what, what were the schools using? So if they get into some sort of investigation, were they just bringing their normal outside counsel to represent them specifically there Sometimes there, there was a couple other firms not in Indiana that were doing it, so, you know, they may hire them or they might have in-house university council that they're using, or they might try to do it with their compliance person in athletics who may or may not be a lawyer and, and has a whole other day job rather, you know, with this investigation on top.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So in what year was this When? 2013. Okay. So then you end up joining. So I ended up joining CCHA. Okay. At first, I, I, I had, I had to have some billable hours at first, so I said, you know, as, as we're getting this practice started. So did you pitch the practice in your job interview? Uh, a little bit, yeah.

I didn't really formulate it until I got started more, but I, part of me wanting to go there 'cause I had an, another offer and a part of me wanting to go there was they were going to support me in trying to grow this practice. Yeah. Okay. That's pretty cool to like, see a vision and be, I mean, you're still, what you do finished law school, you're still in your mid twenties.

Yeah. And to be like, no, I wanna build this thing. You know, there's, there's something to be had there. Uh, and you want like, wanting to chase that down versus like, Hey, you just graduated from law school. It's like maybe later on down the road in your career, shake the boat versus, you know? Yeah. So I think that having the courage and the, the internal drive to go and, and kind of present that early on is pretty cool.

Well, thank you. Yeah. And, and CCHA also had to, I mean, they believed in the idea enough to tell me that I could at least try it. So we, I don't think we could have been doing what we're doing now. Had, had they not followed through on that, it would've been easy for them to say. Um, you know, yeah, come try that, but not actually gimme the time and the resources to do it.

So you're obviously doing billable hours, you know, you stuff to keep the Sure. You gotta keep the lights on. Yeah. Right. Um, what do you do, where do you start like building a practice in a specific field from the ground up? What's like the f like you cold call someone like, Hey, can we represent you? No, so the really a huge player in the story is Julie Roe Lach.

So she is the current commissioner of the Horizon League. Almost done there about to head over to Pacers Sports & Entertainment. But she was somebody I worked with at the NCAA and was a mentor. To me, and she had left the NCAA was figuring out what she was gonna do next. And we had stayed in touch and we got together and I was like, Hey, do you wanna, like, would you be willing to come help us start this practice?

And um, she really wanted to also have the opportunity at the Horizon League at kind of the same time, but was able to work out where she could be of council with us and do the Horizon League job. And really without her, I didn't have the connections that were needed in the industry at the time. I essentially said, if you bring in the work, I'll do the work well and then hopefully I can develop those connections over time.

Yeah. So that's how we first started was, was Julie bring helping to bring the work. What's the first, the first deal? The first case? Is it a case? What would you call it? Yeah, a case. Yeah. The first case that you guys get to work together. Yeah. So it was a school on the west coast. I can't name it for confidentiality reasons, but a division one school on the west coast that was an investigation into a basketball, a men's basketball issue.

Uh, that's lawyers right there. Uh, there's a school that had an issue and you helped solve the issue. Yeah. Wow. Okay. How quickly after you started, did, did this start to come together? Did work happen? Yeah. So I think we really lo, like I started CCHA in 2013. Mm-hmm. We really launched the practice in around 2014, and we had this first case in the 20 14, 20 15 time period.

So doing that first case and doing it well, I think, um, was a, we were able to, you know, turn that into referrals. Yeah. And really it's, it, it, I I, something I've learned to appreciate, I've, I'm impatient in how I want this practice to grow, but I think. It growing at the pace that it has has allowed us to sustain its, its success and Yeah.

Versus it, you know, overnight having to hire 10 people, you're probably gonna make bad hiring decisions if you do that. Yeah. And I mean, CCHA has a, a long standing reputation of, of being around. Yeah. What, 145 years, David, this is 104. How does that even happen? Like, were the original people, c, CH and a, or like, how did this evolve?

Take me through that. Back in 1880, Joseph Roberts rode in his horse up to the courthouse in Noblesville, decided he liked the town and established an office. And then the lineage of him and his, his family and his, his sons. Um, throughout the years, you know, going back 145 years, the, the firm has really tried to maintain that.

Culture of, um, believing in the community, supporting the community, but ultimately treating their clients the right way. We kind of make fun of big law, a little bit, big law, you know? Yeah. And we, we like the underdog. We, we like to do what's right. We like to treat our people well. We like to hire people with entrepreneurial spirits.

So how did it go from Joseph A. Roberts riding in de Noblesville on horseback to open up this law firm to become CCHA? Uh, the first church in the firm, um, was uh, kind of the leader in the elder of the firm, and then his nephew, Doug Church, kind of sparked a revival. Came a, came aboard in the early seventies.

Two churches, get two churches, and then come on guys. Let's know. So you, then you get a a, a Jack Hittle, and then you get a Mike Antrim who Yeah. Uh, believed in what they were doing. Also Noblesville residents and, and really wanting to stay in Noblesville and provide back to the community. How big is the firm today?

Firm today is about 65 to 70 attorneys. Okay. Spread across how many, spread across seven offices throughout the whole state of Indiana. Holy seven offices. Yeah. Where are the offices? So we have, uh, crown Point, we have Fort Wayne Tipton, uh, Westfield, Noblesville, fishers and Zionsville there. It was nice.

That's why, why, and this might be a little bit before your time, but why the region, why Fort Wayne, CCHA has always been a large provider of, of, um, services for public school corporations. Oh. And so we had a large concentration of school corporations in Northeast Indiana and northwest Indiana that needed services.

And so we, uh, we found. Partners that wanted to provide services, um, that were in alignment and agreement with cch, ha's vision, um, and wanted to start an office in both Crown Point and Fort Wayne. And so that's grown from there, from providing services back to public schools to, you know, a lot of business acquisition and, and other types of services.

So then that was a natural fit for the sports law practice to come out of like, you're already involved in education so heavily, uh, that seems to be like a natural marriage there. So you. What, 2014, the practice really launched and you started to take on cases. How quickly did your time become more sports law practice like?

Like when did the scales tip from I'm doing billable hours to keep everything afloat to, oh my gosh. This thing that we started is working 20 18, 20 19, and then really during the pandemic is leading into the pandemic. I, I became almost exclusively 90% sports law. I still have clients that are business clients that I continue to work with today.

Were you seeing the writing on the walls here? Like when did you identify that? Uh, finance in, in the money side of college sports. It was gonna be coming to a point, leading up to 2021, which is when there was the Alston decision, which was a US Supreme Court case that came out in July of 2021. That really changed things in college sports.

But even leading up to that, there was a lot of. Discussion around NIL and student-athlete rights and student-athletes were getting a, a, a larger voice than they'd ever had before. And so we, I mean, we started the practice to do that work where we're defending schools that are going through NCAA investigations.

That's only a small portion of what we do now because college sports has changed so much. We had to bring on, you know, expand our own expertise and bring on other people that we've hired that have different areas of expertise. Where was the moment when you saw that paying like the, the finance side of college athletics, uh, was gonna be a big issue and that like we're on the forefront of this huge storm that's brewing?

Yeah, it was probably leading into that 2021 summer. Okay. Yeah. Is when. And it wasn't just me. Yeah. I mean, others that are live and breathe this work every day. Saw it too. That's 2021. So then before that, it was a lot of like the Title IX type investigative, like those, kind of, a lot of that. But was the NCAA rules compliance?

The, the enforcement department coming in and doing the investigations on, you know, an athlete that, uh, was got, got more financial aid than they were supposed to, or was getting an impermissible benefit that now they all get these benefits and aren't, these are, are not even rules today. What's something that, uh, an athlete would've been like largely punished for that today is Okay.

Uh, I mean, getting like, something like that we wouldn't believe or like, that's crazy. Well, the, the most famous thing is, um, ucon when UConn won a national championship, a few, I forget which year it was, but it was at that point the NCAA used to, right? Or there used to be rules that regulated, um, that you could, they could have a, an athlete could have a bagel, but not the cream cheese, or not the peanut butter that would go on it.

And there, that's a rule. It, it was not anymore. And there's probably people that say, well, that wasn't exactly the rule, that was how it was interpreted. But there just used to be so many rules around what athletes can and can't get in terms of benefits being, whether that's money, whether that's, you know, extra help and, and, uh, whether that's a local restaurant that wanted to give them a free meal or if even if an athlete wanted to have their own camp where they, you know, I, as a golfer, could I have gone home and had a summer camp and made money off of that.

Well, that would've been using. My name, image, and likeness at the time because of my athletic ability. And that would've been a violation. How many Noblesville Middle School golfers missed out because of that I know yeah, because of the name, image, and likeness law. Ugh, that's crazy. Okay, so then you as a fan, and you're seeing this involve like un uh, unwind, you're seeing this kind of mm-hmm.

Come to fruition. Are you, do you find yourself resonating more on the side of the NCAA and your old enforcement buddies? Or do you find yourself more resonating with the college athletes side of like, like if you want to like, that's like a side hustle. If you wanna go out there and do a camp for kids and your local community where you grew up.

I don't know. The gut instinct to me says that's okay. Yeah. I think I very much try to use common sense, like that feels like a common sense thing. You should be able to go monetize that. I feel like a lot of people look at a lot of the ruling of the NCAA and say like, where is the common sense? Yeah. And I, I think that's fair.

I, I have a lot of admiration and respect for a lot of the people there, so it's always hard to distinguish that and there distinguish, there's an open invitation for anyone from the NCAA that wants to come on the show and talk. I say like, I would love to chat. You guys are, you do great stuff. Big fan of your work.

Yeah. You know, big fan. Uh, but like, yeah, you see when it came to Jersey sales, you know. Number I, the, the, I think the biggest case of this, or where maybe there's just the most public information about this is like Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M, they're selling like millions and millions of dollars of number two, uh, jerseys down there.

And he's, you know, not supposed to get any of that. And it's like they're profiting so heavily off his name, image, and likeness. That's like, well, where in the world is that fair? Yeah. You know, and then it's like, we vote like we have today, and it's like all these kids don't have to like, stay true to their commitment.

Like, it doesn't matter. It's like the wild west, like who knows what's going on. Yeah. We need to find like an equilibrium. Yeah. In college it's, it's swung. I, I think athletes should be able to monetize their NIL have no issue with them getting paid. I think that I like, that's, I think that's great for all of college sports.

I don't think it's, it's like reduced fan viewership or fandom as, as some people feared. I think that the next frontier is they become potentially employees and I think that's where. Life as a division one men's basketball, women's basketball, or football player is so much different than, you know, a division in, in some cases, a division one women's golfer.

And I don't think a, I think that's where we need to be able to differentiate between the types of experiences and not like paint with a broad brush. Yeah. 'cause it's almost like, I mean, just out of the pool of rabid NCAA women's golf fans is just smaller than, you know, NCAW, uh, women's basketball fans, you know?

Yeah. Like, and so like finding the people that want to fork up a million dollars for the best women's golfer, like there's probably not that many of them. Not many, no. Right. Uh, whereas like. You know, the 15th string point guard coming to the, like, you want that, right? Yeah. Um, that's interesting. That's really interesting.

So where did you guys start to gain national credibility for the sports law practice? So it started with the NCAA, uh, compliance work and, and you know, having a number of cases. And, uh, like any industry, like college sports, although it's national, it's small. And if somebody has an issue, they're gonna call somebody they know at another school and say, Hey, who did you use?

Yeah. Are there cases that you have been a part of that you're allowed to talk about? Not really. Some of them have been public, but our involvement has not been public necessarily. Okay. So are there cases that we could talk about in general and like how the NCAA is thinking about that versus like, so they just like, I think that a lot of us just read the headlines.

Sure. And we don't really know the, like the ins and outs in logistics that are going into this. Right. Like. Uh, someone like, okay, for instance, we had the founder or the owner of Buffalo Louis' in Bloomington down here, and they have, uh, Fernando Mendoza Burger on their menu where Fernando and his pe actually it was Fernando's people.

Mm-hmm. And actually the Mendoza brothers together wanted a burger on the menu in Bloomington somewhere that the proceeds went to help because their mom was diagnosed with ms. So all the proceeds go to ms. And so they had to like set up this whole, uh, NIL agreement. But it's not like they're paying him for his name, image and likeness, like, just like that.

So when talking through how have. Athletes' abilities to get paid, just like totally shaking things up from an, from an NCAA perspective. Yeah. So using that example, had that ha had that happened before, um, NIL became permissible, um, either it would've not been allowed or they would, the, the IU would've had to try to go to the NCAA and get a waiver and say, Hey, we wanted, we want you to waive this rule in this limited case.

Yeah. Like, like these two. Boys, young men, these two young men, their mother has ms. They want to do something nice for her and use their publicity and their athletic prowess, and the fact that people know them to make a positive impact, and you have to go and get a waiver from, like, that's one of those ones where it's like, I, it feels like common sense to me.

And, and there used to actually be, even if like, there used to be so stringent that if somebody, you know, if an athlete was on campus, they're far away from home and they had something happen at home where they needed to get back home, they used to have to get. Permission for to be able to fly them back home and pay for that.

And over time those rules modernized. And there's funds on campus now where they don't, like they have tried to, they being the NCAA, which is all of the members of the NCAA, meaning all the institutions, they have tried to pass rules to make those like human elements more reasonable. But like a lot of cases, some from several years ago would involve an athlete setting up a GoFundMe and they would raise money from the public, maybe from boosters in there for some purpose.

Maybe it was charitable, maybe it was not. Um, maybe they were trying to go to the Olympics and they needed help, you know, to get funding for that. And that would've been a violation. And now we just have ways that that can be done legally. What's like the most famous. Case that would've been, that was a violation, a very strict violation then that today everyone is doing, the first one that comes to mind is I use basketball case with Kelvin Sampson.

There are still rules around there, there's still some limitations about how when you can contact prospects, but that, I case I think was largely around phone calls and too many phone calls. A lot of that has been deregulated now, so there's probably other, other schools are probably like, no, it was our case that, you know, that comes to mind.

But, um, I mean, there were certainly cases that, that were before I started in this area, and while I've, while I've been in it where players were getting, you know, bags of cash or something that while the bags of cash would not be permissible today, they could just pay them in a contract today and it wouldn't be the YouTuber.

Who is the kicker for UCF believe. Is it UCF? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he played college football. Uh, it's Donald De La Haye, but he's like, destroying. Have you, do you heard about And like I know, I don't, basically they, I, and I don't know all the details or whatever, but like he was showing life of a kicker on YouTube and was making money and they didn't want him to do that.

Yeah. And it was like, you can't get paid from YouTube for like using the fact that you're a division one kicker. And he was like, he got a million subs or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, okay, cool. I'll just go do, I'll just go do YouTube and do that full time. And it's like, now everyone has a YouTube page.

No, everybody can, everyone's got a podcast. Mm-hmm. Wow. That's crazy. Uh, David, as you guys have thought, since you joined in 20 20, 20 21, 20 21. How have you guys seen this practice grow over your four years there and how have you had to dedicate more people, more resources, more as the practice grow nationally?

Yeah. As Kelleigh and her team continue to become known throughout the country. I mean, there's, uh, there's resources, there's people, um, there's support staff. There's offices that we have to provide her practice, group revenues continue to almost double annually. Let's go. That's hype, you know, but you know, some of that is you gotta feed the, feed the machine.

And so that's Kelleigh going out and finding talent, finding people who believe in her vision, um, going out and getting other entrepreneurs that want to get out and, and market and network. How many attorneys focused towards sports are there within CCHA? Yeah, we have about 10 right now. I say about, because we've got a couple of different arrangements.

But yeah, we've got about 10, 10 people that are focused on it. 10 years ago. Yeah. Half of one. Yeah. You know, like, that's pretty crazy. Yeah. That's so, so impressive. So, so cool. Like, yeah, and it, it gives you this, um, from the outside looking in, like this glimpse of entrepreneurship within what I would believe is a largely not super entrepreneurial field.

No offense to any of the lawyers that are listening to this. It's not because I know there's a ton of you. Um, he does feel it's like, go and be a junior associate or whatever, you know, like pay your time, grow, grow, grow. And then eventually one day you can become a partner and like the pathway is pretty laid out.

Like look all across the country, there's lots of people who have done this. Like, this is the first time I've heard of a, a lawyer that could stay within a practice and build something. Usually it's like ex-lawyer goes out and builds some sort of software company on the side versus building this, uh.

Entrepreneurial practice within a larger practice. I never felt like I had the risk of a startup because I knew that I had a bunch of really good people that I trusted at CCHA backing me. So if this failed, I was still gonna have a job. And I think that freed me up to, to not feel that pressure. And I think it says a lot about our culture.

I mean, Mike Antrim told me like, we want everybody here to shape their practice, because if they do that, then they're gonna stay here and be happy and enjoy their life outside of work. And, um, I do think that's an ethos that we really try to live every day as a firm. We're not perfect. We don't, we don't always do that.

We do have to pay bills at the end of the day. But, um, I think it's, I, I think it, it is unique in, in kind of creating a new group in an existing law firm that, that didn't really need the practice. Like right. They, we, we were gonna be fine continuing to do what we were doing. But had but allowed me to at least give it a shot and see if it worked.

Yeah. I say it's like no one's losing their job practicing the way that you guys have practiced for 145 years. Yeah. Just doing the status quo is the status quo, but yeah, getting to build something up and doubling almost every like, that's crazy. That's so, so cool. Where was the moment throughout this 11 year journey at this point from starting the practice?

Where was the moment along this 11 year journey where it really clicked for you that like you've built something special and you're on the right path? Path? I don't think it's clicked yet. Really. You haven't like found yourself like sitting across the table from. I don't know, the Big 10 or whoever, and you're like, dang, this is pretty cool.

I think anytime I get to go on campus and do work it's in and sit across from really a student-athlete and hear, you know, what, what their, what their life is like. Yeah. I think that's always a, a moment that makes me appreciate it more. What is like the most exciting day in the life of Kelleigh look like?

Um, lots of variety. So I may work on an NIL contract and then like, when you're talking about what does that mean? Okay. Like, like take me through the details of what Well, it won won't sound that exciting. I'm on a computer, you know, I'm, I'm reviewing a contract of probably somebody, you know, that if you're a college sports fan, you may, people may know and it's, is that ever cool where you're like, like, there's a lot of cool moments.

I don't, I don't think I've have fully, uh, you know, sat back and said like, I, I do appreciate what we thought. Are you a fan of, of sports? Oh. So like what's your favorite, what's your favorite sports team or favorite? Oh gosh, it's gonna get me in trouble with clients. Oh, no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. All of 'em.

My, yeah, I love all of our clients are my favorite teams, but my, my parents are from Ohio and they both went to Ohio State stop. So, and, but my, my husband and my son are huge IU fans, so we've really become, you know, an IU Ohio State household. And, uh, I, it doesn't which side, what? It doesn't always work well, especially recently.

What side were you on for the Big 10 championship? I, I honestly didn't care because my son's seven, or he's eight now. He just turned eight. And so, like, to see him super excited was better than to see Ohio State win. So I'm probably, I'm like making a lot of people mad by not sticking with the Buckeyes.

But yeah, but it's okay. I, we'll, we'll accept it. We understand, you know, but I like Pacers and Colts and Fever and, you know, all, all of the local teams. So you'll be on the computer looking at whoever Big X name, five star prospect, that's the, you know, quarterback for blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, Hey, this is their NIL agreement from, uh, raising canes chicken.

What? So and so did, and you're like going through all that. It'll be, it'll be the agreement with the school. So we represent the school. So when, so since schools can be paying directly mm-hmm. We'll be working with the school to say, what, what does this contract look like? And, and what do you, what do you need to have in there to protect you?

And then the athlete negotiates what they need in there to protect them. Um, so, so I'll be looking at and, and maybe negotiating with their agent or their attorney, the athlete's attorney, what the, the terms are for the, the legal terms. I don't, I don't really negotiate the dollar amounts that usually is told to us.

Yeah. But negotiating the legal terms that are around that. Um, so that, that made me, how long are one of these contracts? Seven to 40 pages. We try to be in like the 10 to 12 range, um, because 10 to 12 pages that are this, isn't you going back and forth on like, are you worth a million dollars or are you worth $2 million?

This is like legal terms Yeah. If someone fails a class or something. Yeah. And like how does that look upon the university Yep. And what happens to your payment if that happens? No way. Yeah. Like what are some, are there other clauses like that, that are like, that would make people be like, oh, that's pretty fascinating.

I mean, a lot of the issues are things we see in the pros, although not related to academics, but, um, you know, if, if you, so right now sports wagering is a huge issue in college sports. An athlete can be investigated by the NCAA and their eligibility can be at risk. So. If in the middle of the basketball season the school gets a call from the NCAA and says, Hey, we think so and so, um, has been involved in some sports wagering issues, then you might have to hold them outta games.

And there may be something in their contract that says, because their eligibility is uncertain that they aren't getting paid. Like, this is crazy. You think about this. Okay, mid-major school, wherever, like even like those lines are on DraftKings now. Oh yeah. And it's like, imagine all of your fraternity brothers pull together, like, Hey, we're gonna put 50 grand, or fi, let's say 10 grand.

You know, you get a hundred people each put in, I dunno, five 50 bucks. I don't do public math, but like they get 10 grand to put on a wager and they're like, Hey, uh, foul out. Or something like, you know, like, you could like do something. It's almost easier than that. It's like if, if you're projected to get 20 points, like get 19 or 21 or.

It, it probably isn't easy as it seems, but it, it's, I think a lot of people, or like that one, think I can do this without anybody noticing. You projected to get 20 points, just stop at 19. Yeah. Just like brick, everything else. Mm-hmm. And we'll, we'll slide you a thousand bucks. Yep. We're naive to think that that's not happening.

It's happening. We're naive to think that's not happening. For sure. Right. Um, but it's also like, what do you do? Like, how do, I don't know. That's great. We're also like naive to think that the coaches don't know the lines. Yeah. And that the coaches aren't like, keep the starters in let's like, like they have some, like, they're not aware of like, oh, we were not favored by X, Y, Z, and like, I wanna run up the score, or I'm gonna keep it closed.

Yeah. Recently the NCAA almost. So they have, right now, the rule is. If there is an NCAA sponsored sport that is also on the professional side. Like they can't even gamble on the NBA, um, because that's a, because there's a basketball as an NCAA sport, and there was a proposal recently to deregulate that part of it and allow betting on professional sports by college athletes or people who work in athletics at the university that got overruled.

And so now the rule is still, so if, if somebody bets, if an athlete bets on the Super Bowl or if a director of ops bets on the Super Bowl, that's not permitted under NCAA rules and they can have get penalties left. Well, we used to get told in college, so I was on the team at DePauw and they would say like, no fantasy football leagues.

Right? Yeah. And I was like, what? Like, 'cause somehow having a fantasy football league with all of your friends, like this was pre-DraftKings. This was like, you can't even have like the ESPN app because that's frowned upon by the NCAA. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's it that, that's probably the biggest issue right now in, in college sports in terms of where there are risks for athletes.

Is it gonna continue to be as crazy, like could, let's say this get Indiana blows up, we become a billion dollar company. Do you think that I'll be able to just go and say, you know what, I want the Jaguars downtown IUPUI, or sorry, IU Indy. I want them to be great. Here's $50 million by the players. Can I just do that?

Yeah. I mean, those conversations are happening and, and some schools still have collectives, which are third party entities, but they're essentially very affiliated with the school. Yeah. Where they, so there's a salary cap, so each school has up to 20.5 million this year. To be able to spend in total on all their athletes, each division one school.

How do you balance Title IX with a salary cap based on like, you know, what sports drives the most revenue in attendance? Yeah. So revenue generation has never been a, a justification to not comply with Title IX. So that is the most, one of the areas that's most up in the air right now. And from a legal standpoint, because like, how are they using, like the average team, if you had to say like they're bucketing 50% to football and 25% to men's basketball, and then the other 25% gets spread across the other 20 teams or whatever?

Yeah. Like how is the distribution typically going? About 75% football, usually about 5% for women's basketball. Maybe a little bit left for all the other Olympic sports. And then whatever the balance would be of that for men's basketball. Well, how much for, oh, whatever the balance would be. For men's basketball.

Yeah. So it usually goes 75 if you have football, 75% of football, 10 to 15%, um, for men's basketball, 5% for women's basketball, maybe zero or a little bit for the rest of the sports. Those field hockey players are getting the short in those things. Yeah. There's a lot of college athletes not getting any or getting very small amounts of NIS.

What do you think about that? Uh, my fear is that we've made a lot of progress in terms of Title IX in the last 50 some years that we've had the law that this could potentially halt some of that or slow some of that down. We're seeing schools cut more sports, not just women's sports, also men's sports, but I think part of being a college athlete is you go learn how to be an adult and part and, and college athletes are generally more successful in the workforce and have, have come out more prepared, um, than somebody who's not a college athlete.

And I think. We are eliminating opportunities for, for, for more broad based sport program. That causes me concern. I think I want as many people as possible to be able to play college sports. 'cause I think it is a great thing. Are you guys thinking about this trickling into high school? David? Any you're, I mean, you spent the most time outta anyone here in high school.

I, I think if it, if we think it's not, I think we're naive. I think you see five star athletes, you know, for spec, specifically the, the big sports, you know, football and basketball. You see players that, um, are committed or are driving vehicles that are beyond their family's needs. So that's another one of these common sense things.

I think each state. Mm-hmm. Like how did, I think I did Johnny get Bent is regulating the high school and Indiana's not quite there yet. Yeah. Indiana does not allow high school to do NIL right now. Ohio just started it just passed all the, or passed their rules that allow it. Like that, that allow high schoolers to get paid.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not by their schools, but by the, you know, local restaurant or car dealership, or, which is also like, you're naive if you thought that wasn't happening before. Right. Like you Friday night lights, it just, it just didn't feel, it just didn't feel like that, you know? Like, and, and honestly, I actually like it.

I like the fact that growing up in a small town, you know, like the football team's out at the diner and like the old farmer picks up their tab. Like, that's, that's cool. Yeah. And like some people will hate that and like, that's okay, I'll take that. But like, I think that it's cool or like, you know, I remember, you know, being at the gas station and you know, you're getting a gator like, oh hey, great game on Friday, like dozen.

It's like wrong, you know, it's not right technically based on IHSAA based on NCAA, all that stuff. But it also is like a, it matters to people like sports matters. It's a community builder. And I think one thing I think, you know. The just crazy growth of youth sports and uh, that if, if we don't modernize at a high school level and allow some of this, we're already seeing that people just don't play high school sports anymore.

They, for their school, they just play for their club or their travel team. And I think if you're playing for your club in your travel team, there isn't an IHSAA that's regulating that. So you can go get those deals now. Yeah, like there's, I guarantee it there's like a, a 5-year-old or 15-year-old lacrosse player that's like sponsored by the biggest stick brand.And like, let's say they're 10 years old and their mom runs their Instagram and they're getting like deals about lacrosse stuff and they're getting paid to do it for sure. Right? Like, oh we live, it is the wild west. It is. Are you guys thinking about that from a high school perspective? Is that like on the, I mean, we collaborate with our K through 12 practice group and you know, if they've got.

Um, issues that come up from an IHSAA standpoint or if we need to provide some education. We've had a couple of situations where some, where a family or you know, a student may think like, oh, I can do that now. And they don't realize Indiana doesn't like it. Um, so I think we'll have a, a leg up and that we already represent so many school systems in this state to, to be able to, when issues come up, do that.

Um, but yeah, until Indiana does it, we, we probably won't see as much of it. Everyone like exaggerates a little bit when you talk about like, oh, I'm getting $10 million or whatever. Yeah. But like, there's a lot of money going around and I thought of it too, like, so I'm a DePauw graduate and I'm like, oh, go Tigers baby.

It's gone. Alright, so you and me, let's team up. We'll each throw in a couple, like we have to be the biggest D three collective. If we put like 10 grand in mm-hmm. You know, like there's not that many D three programs tossing around money. I think we could get some top recruits for just a couple grand.

That's not out of the question from a D three level, like I if it meant. Okay. Actually, here's a question for you, David. You're a DePauw grad? Yes. What year? Uh, 1990. Okay. 1990. Are you, do you like stay up on the Monon Bell game? Yeah. My, my son graduated in 18. If it meant that we would win the Monon Bell game, like would you get financially involved?

Absolutely. Like I would too. Come on. Like that's not that far. And you know, Wabash feels the same way. Yeah. And you know that people for their alma maters are like, oh yeah, you know what? Like, so and so was an All American. Like maybe we should toss in a couple free Marvin's cheeseburgers that after the game next season, like for sure.

Right. It's crazy. It's so crazy. What do you think the biggest misconception around NIL in college athletics is? Probably the dollar figures. I mean, they're high, but the ones, the ones that are always floated out, there aren't always. Accurate. Yeah. Um, and I think I, I would couple that with, I guess a second biggest one is that like everybody's getting paid now, there's 85 some players on a football roster.

That's a lot of people to pay that you never paid before except for a scholarship. Um, not to mention all the other student-athletes. So I think, I think it's that like every athlete that's a college athlete is now making all this money and has all these NIL deals and a vast majority of them do not.

What's the seriously validated most amount of money you've heard of a college athlete making, um, 8 million. $8 million. Mm-hmm. From, and that wasn't a co that wasn't a client or anything like that? No. That was from a collective or from like brand deals? I think this was all in all in, yeah. Because like I do re respect, you know, if they're out there hustling, making content, like doing their thing, like you can make a really good living in Yep.

And it's almost like, why go to the pros if I can just like come back, play, get, get another meal from the school and a meal from the local car dealership? Like, well, that's another issue is that there are like 30 some lawsuits against the NCAA right now about their eligibility rules of how long you can compete in college.

People wanna keep coming back because they're able to make significant amounts of money. I think I got a few years of eligibility. Yeah. And now I have some followers. Like, let's, let's make a deal. Hoosiers, come on now let's go. Uh, are you worried, are you guys worried about college sports? Like, do you think it's gonna lose any of its luster?

Do you think it's gonna, like I know one thing that I saw last year, again, it could be a one-year anomaly, but like basketball March Madness. Uh, from the outside, from a fan's perspective, it looks really hard to have, um, a great march madness when these mid-majors develop talent and they get poached by the biggest schools.

'cause they have a big checkbook. And it's like hard to see the, like Loyola Chicagos make this crazy run because those players don't need to stick around because they can get a bag by playing two or three years, maybe two years, and then transferring to the big school. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a real risk that.

Uh, unfortunately is, is there's no easy solution to it. Um, because when you've got 20.5 million you can spend, the mid-majors aren't spending 20.5 million and the Power Four are spending that and then having their collective spend more than that. Do you think that contracts will start to matter more in, uh, from the athlete perspective?

Yeah, I think if you're have multi-year deals, like versus a one-year deal, um, and a school tries to enforce that, that's gonna be much different than what we're seeing now. So while they can't, the NCAA can't, um, because of antitrust, they can't right now have rules that prohibit, um, transferring. You can have a contract that says you agree to be here for two years, and if you don't, you owe me a buyout so your next school has to pay.

I think I just heard of the first time that a school is sued. An athlete because it was like 60 grand or something like that. I think it's Geor. There's a Georgia. Georgia, yeah. Yes. So Georgia paid up money. Do you know this case? I don't know the details of it. I saw the, the story about it, but yeah, where they paid money and then it didn't end up, they maybe the person transferred away or didn't and they were like, they want their money back.

Yeah. Which is like the, I think that was the first time a school had ever came after money. They had disbursed. Yep. Which, I mean like, it's kind of fair. I think that it would be interesting to see. Yeah. A mid-major. You're like, you know. In the thick of rural Indiana, you're driving to these games and you're identifying talent that no one else is willing to go find.

Like they have it, they're like a zero star recruit. You sign the hick from French Lick Larry Bird to come to Indiana State and it's like he's granted loyalty and like not getting paid. Like he like sticks it out with, uh, Indiana State. But if you find and develop that talent, it's like, yeah, like one in today's current landscape, you can't blame them.

Like you come from French Lick Indiana and someone says, Hey, we'll give you a million dollars to play basketball for us. You have to take it. Yeah. Like you can't be mad at the kids. Um, but it's also like if you kinda, if you get them under contract of some sort where like, Hey, if IU wants to poach the Indiana State kid, you could have him.

But we need our finder-and-development fee. We need a little bit of residuals. It's like what we see on the coaching market in college sports. You see these huge buyouts that institutions will owe. Or if, if somebody goes from one power forward to another, then that when that co, if that coach leaves voluntarily, then there's usually a buyout and the next school has to pay it.

So I think that's what we'll start to see next is schools will buy out the contracts, um, to be able to, to have them, you know, void that multi-year deal. Well, I mean, you see it in the MLB too, where these companies will go into, uh, like Puerto Rico or the Dominican, and they'll find these like impressive mm-hmm.

Seven year olds, you know, and they'll be like, Hey, we're gonna give you. $200,000 today, it'll elevate your sta like it's more money than they've ever seen. And then we get 20%, 50% of your future earnings. And a lot of times they don't pan out and they're like, they're taking bets on these, these kids and these families.

Understandable. But then it's like, Fernando Tiz, he gets this huge contract and millions of dollars are getting sent out to this. It's like fair. They, they found them and they developed the talent and they were part of it. Uh, it's you're seeing that, that on the professional side. Yeah. And the, the college sports rules essentially prohibit that so that you can't, you can't, you don't get their NIL rights once they're, they have no more eligibility.

So they've at least tried to, to stem the tide of that happening at the collegiate level. But I mean, I think we'll only see. The, it's so early. The house settlement is really what has precipitated all of this. And that just went into effect in July of this past summer. So we're only five, six months into this world, um, where schools can pay athletes directly.

So we still have so much to be seen as to how it, where it settles, how it evolves. Yeah. Whether they become employees. You know, there's a lot of questions still. I could talk about this all day. I think it's so fascinating. Uh, we are gonna shift gears a little bit 'cause what we've clearly learned over the last 50 minutes talking about, uh, college athletics and NIL and all those things is you guys are pretty innovative.

For a law firm. I think that that's pretty cool to spin up a new practice. David, talk to us about the other ways that you guys are moving this business forward, this practice forward, how you guys are, I mean, you're really involved in the community, but you're also, you know, growing, expanding, bringing on new attorneys.

How does a law firm stay innovative in 2026? Believe in your people, uh, believe in Kelleigh, you know, provide, uh, them the resources to go out and do what they need to do. Um, get outta their way, honestly. Um, you know, we've almost doubled in size in the four years I've been here. Um, and I think that's Kudos to you.

That's awesome. No, no. It's kudos to everybody in the, in the firm believing in the vision, you know, um, believing in where we wanna go. But, you know, most importantly. Treat people well, treat your clients well. Treat your staff well. I don't care if you're selling lemonade on the corner or you're Fortune 500 company.

It's, it's about your people. It's about how you treat your people. Yeah. Do you have a vision? Do you know where you're going? It's interesting that you're talking about people in a world where everyone talks about ai, how, how are you guys thinking about that? Right? You're overseeing technology as well too, right?

Yeah. You, you, you have to, you have to be aware of what's going on. Um, you know, I, you know, we, we talk about it internally as a firm, as how can it support what we're doing? It's not to replace what we are doing. Yeah. Because it's still a people business. I mean, you still need to develop relationships. You still have to have conversations.

I mean, a lot of times, like the junior, like the, what's the entry level role of a associate? An associate, yes. An associate. A lot of that is just like reading, right? And like reviewing stuff. Do you think it, there's a world where that. Gets replaced by ai. I don't think it gets replaced. I think it supplements, you know, what their, their role is.

I mean, you still have to use critical thinking. You still have to be able to figure things out. Um, it's a puzzle. You know, sometimes there's complex matters and you still gotta think and, you know, AI's not gonna do that for you completely. I was gonna say, are you guys, uh, as like a, uh, an attorney, are you not worried, but uh, aware of how AI is changing in like, the fact of reading documents, like the role of an attorney might, uh, evolve a little bit?

Yeah. We talk about the ethical use, the acceptable use of it. Um, we talked to our young associates about, um, if it's, if it helps you save time and the, the creation of something, it can't be the complete document, uh, because it's still evolving as a, as a technology. And so we, we But you're saying you guys don't, you didn't always use em dashes.

That was not, you guys didn't always do that. Weird. I you do. Oh my God, I love a good end dash. Yeah. It's like, no, the, but you can tell when it's being used, it hit LinkedIn first. Like, this was probably two, maybe two years ago or so, and all of a sudden, like, again, this is very stereotypical, but like stodgy, 60 plus old white, CEO all the sudden has emojis in his LinkedIn posts.

And I'm like, bro, come on. Like that's just not, you're not writing that. Like he went from posting like very short, like love this, blah, blah, blah. And now all of a sudden it's like, I'm so excited to talk about my new blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like. Like power emoji, like, like, you know, hands sparkling, jazz hands, let's go.

And it's like, dude, come on. That's not real. What are we talking about here? Our, our clients want to have a conversation with their attorney. Yeah. And if the attorney's not well versed in what they created, you know, if AI did it for them they're not gonna be able to serve that client well. So we talk a lot about that with our, with our team.

Yeah. Um, you know, I think we do a good job of meeting Kelleigh and her group and I meet, you know, on an ongoing basis. 'cause I'm, I'm like you, I'm a fan of what they're doing and I think it's fun to watch it evolve. And, you know, I I, I love how Kelleigh doesn't have an end game to this. I mean, you know, she said earlier, you know, there's, you know, she's still striving to, um, you know, make, she hasn't even touched the surface of where it can go.

And I, you know, it's fun to watch that. It's fun to support that. As a firm. I, I, I love how we, you know, we have others in the firm who have seen Kelleigh create this, that are thinking about what can they do that's unique, that's different, and that allows us to attract young people and talent. I mean, that's, that's the game.

And, you know, keeping your people well. Both of you have been awarded several very, I mean, amazing, incredible awards. Um, I mean, talking about getting, uh, honored by being on the 40 under 40 list for the IBJ, how impactful was that for you, and how validating was that in, in this thing that you've created?

Yeah, I, I don't like personal attention very much 'cause I, I, there's so much more that has gone on into the success of this than me, but it, it has, that was, uh, something that peers, you know, nominated me for at the firm. And so it's always validating, it always feels really good when the people you work with every day and care a lot about, as people thought, thought of you to, to nominate you for that and took the time.

To put, to put a nomination together. So it, my family got to come and, and I'm sure it was a, a proud day for my parents and my sister and my husband and, and some of my closest, um, colleagues at the firm. So it, it, it's definitely, it was definitely a huge honor. I wish I could have shared it with like the whole team and everybody that's ever worked in, in sports law at CCHA, that's like the, the Fernando, like Heisman Acceptance Award basically.

I didn't That's what you just, I didn't see his speech. Yeah. Oh, he, this is all of our war. He's just so passionate and like comes and brings so much to just so much energy. I love it. Um, David, you also, so what, 2009, you were the IBJ CFO of the year, you were ASBO school business official of the year in 11 and 14, but most recently in 2024, you were inducted into the Indiana ASBO Hall of Fame.

Talk to me about what that means to have left such a. Outstanding legacy in education in Indiana to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Like that's feel pretty good. Also, I, I wanna preface it that you don't know they were, you were with uh, MSD Warren Township. MSD Warren Township for 23 years.

Yeah. Yeah. Before I came to C-C-H-A-I retired in 2021, I was in public education. Um, you know, prior to that I was 11, 12 years with Fifth Third Bank in investment banking. You know, I loved from investment banking to education. Yeah. It's finance, public finance, finance, not finance. Yes, yes. Wait, from investment BA that is like the most, 180 u-turn I feel like I've ever heard.

Yeah. From investment banking to get into Yeah. Public schools. What do you wanna do? What do you wanna get outta bed to, to do today? You know, my family we're educators. Um, I always wanted to be a high school coach. What'd you wanna coach? Golf? Uh, no, baseball, basketball. Respect. You know, it, it allowed me when I was at Warren to do some of that, um, to be around kids.

Um, every day I felt like my job, I was impacting 12,000 kids, 8,000 family. You know, that, you know, you still have a job to do. You still have, you know, to make sure the, you know, people are paid, make sure the buses run on time and all that. Well, I think everyone likes to say like, like everyone saying, we're impact.

We're changing the world, the work that we do here. And it's like, you have to really get a, like, you're like so far removed. You know, it's like, why building these paper cups? We're fueling the Coffee of America, American. It's like this far for you. You wake up and you are impacting when, when you were there, you're 12,000 lives.

Yeah. That's the student population, right? Absolutely. You know, that's crazy. It was great. I loved it. Um, you know, being. Someone who was able to share at a statewide level. You know, just ideas and, you know, things that we were very successful at at Warren. And then taking that to the, you know, kind of the association that other school people.

I got very heavily involved with that. I did a lot of training, a lot of professional development and, you know, I think the, the Hall of Fame, I. That wasn't me that, you know, again, going back, that was a team kind of thing. Yeah. Um, I just appreciated the opportunity 'cause they gave a lot to me. I was hope.

Hopefully I gave back to them a little bit. Yeah. I think that public education is definitely over criticized Underpraised. Mm-hmm. You know, like it's a thankless, it's a thankless industry. We had, uh, I actually had the, the CEO, the outgoing CEO of Community Health Network in here. Bryan Mills. Bryan Mills.

Brian. Bryan Mills. Yeah. Very close friend of ours. Yeah. Brian's great. Yeah. We love Brian. Yeah. I had Brian on not too long and like we had the same uh, uh, or a similar conversation about providers, like anyone that works in healthcare. Thankless job so hard. Like teachers, oh my gosh. Talk about this. Okay.

We talked about AI and now we're talking about public education. Like how are these teachers supposed to know, like. Kids cheat. Like that's just how it goes. Kids use ai. My 8-year-old asked Alexa a question the other day and I was like, no, no, no. We don't ask Alexa for the homework answer. Yeah. You know, like that's, uh, ever evolving.

If you, if you talk to the Department of Education, that's probably their bigger, their number one concern right now is just, you know, not eliminating it, but embracing it. And how do you, how do you, you know, it's, it, I had the analogy given back to me a few years ago. Um, the difference between, you know, learning how to do math and using a calculator and, you know, today we're gonna use a calculator if we need to Yeah.

Find out, you know, public math. Yeah, exactly. Uh, it's how do you use it appropriately and how do you use it as a tool and a resource? AI is going to be a part of our lives forever moving forward. It can't be a replacement, but, um, you know, students still need to learn critical thinking. They need to learn how write and develop content and.

Uh, you know, the Department of Education public educators are trying to embrace it. Yeah. Not, I always did think, like, yeah, I had this graphing calculator that had more buttons on it than my phone, and I'm like, what? When am I ever gonna use this thing? You know, like, and so like, yeah. Maybe evolving and figuring out how people are using AI or using technology to become critical thinkers and solve the world's complex problems.

It's above my pay grade. We just, I just, I just sit here and have conversations. Right. Um, this has been super fun. Thank you. It's been awesome to learn the 145 year plus history of CCHA, uh, the 11 year journey of the sports law practice there and how you guys have grown that nationally to be at the forefront of athletics and universities.

I think that it's comp, I think you've just scratched the surface. I think things are gonna get way crazier before they get any more simple. Um, I think it's really, really cool to hear your passion for it. Kelleigh. We are to the part of the show. We're gonna talk all things Indiana, if you guys are okay with that.

Absolutely. Sure. Acceptable. All right. This question is brought to you by our friends at JC Hart. They're a leader in creating enjoyable living experiences at apartment communities all across Indiana and beyond. Check them out at homeisjchart.com. My question for you, David, we're gonna start here and then we'll go to Kelleigh.

David, why do you call Indiana home? It's always been home. Uh, I, I, I have lived in other areas, but you know, you always come back to Indiana. I mean, Hoosiers, you know, there's great movie. There's, there's something to it, you know, and then there's something about the, the people. Um, you know, we're, uh, we're within a drive of 80% of the population in the United States in a day's drive, and so you can go anywhere.

That's a fun fact. Yeah. Kelleigh, why do you call Indiana home? I was born and raised in Noblesville, went to school, uh, in Indianapolis, live in Indianapolis. And it's just, it's just always been where my family's been and I've never really wanted to leave. A lot of people will be like, oh, in college athletics, you move around a lot.

I haven't, I've just, I've been in central Indiana and for somebody who loves sports, there really can't be a better, a better place to be. Heck yeah. Do you guys each have a favorite one of the offices that you work out of? I'm in our Fisher's office. We call it the fishbowl, so that's gotta be my favorite fish.

Yeah. I'm in Noblesville mainly. Mainly, yeah. Noblesville. Do you go to the other ones as well? Yeah, almost every day. Mm. What's been the most, uh, what you, almost every day you go to a different one of them. No, don't get up. You know, to our, uh, region offices. But, you know, I'm in Fishers almost every day. You know, I get to Westfield Tipton, Zionsville Weekly.

Ooh. Out of all those different markets. So you have Crown Point, Fort Wayne Tipton, Westfield Zionsville, fishers Noblesville. Did I used to get 'em all? Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. There you go. We go. Which one? Where's, what's your favorite spot out of all those places? I love downtown Noblesville. You know, I wasn't a Noblesville, you know, homegrown person, but, you know, I'm kind of a transplant now.

And the Square, you know, what the city of Noblesville is doing, you know, to, to maintain that, that history, that integrity. Um, if you haven't visited downtown Noblesville, it's a, it's a delight. All right. I like that. Noblesville is, it's cool. It's way up there, but it's cool. The pe and e Festival. Come on now.

Absolutely. Yeah. Let's talk. Okay. If you were both college athletes, I want you to put yourself, well, you were both college athletes. Shout out if you would've been in the running for NIL. And there was a brand that was gonna work with you and sign you guys, what brand would you want coming after you to sign your NIL deal?

Oh, these days I'd want Vuori. Oh yeah. I wear a lot of Vuori stuff. Vuori sick. Absolutely. Come on. Oh, as, as a golfer. Callaway. You know, that would've been fun. Yeah, it would've been. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, I was kind of hoping DePauw guy. I was kinda hoping like Moore's Bar & Grill could have been a pretty, you know, like third drinks free.

That would've been pretty fun. Could've been a good time. Mar Marvin's travels everywhere. Who are each of your favorite athletes? Mine, athlete and coach was Pat Summitt as a, as a fifth grader. I, um, we had like a night of the notables and I dressed up as Pat Summitt and my fifth grade teacher got a picture signed by her and it's in my office now.

So I've just always been. Read all her books and, and been a huge admirer of her. That's sick. Isn't the next, uh, WNBA team gonna be the summits? Shame on me for not knowing that, but that'd be awesome. Oh, Nashville's bid for A-W-N-B-A expansion team proposed as the Tennessee Summitt Honoring Pat Summitt, uh, was unfortunately not selected.

Oh. For name wise, that would've been great. Great. Yeah. Okay. So there you have it. It won't, it's not actually happening yet, but I do think that's a great name. Yeah, it could be fun. Pat Summitt. Yep. I love that. You know, uh, different athletes at different times in my life. Probably, you know, those that transcended sports, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, you know, they, they took it beyond just the, the court or the, you know, the, the arena and yeah.

You know, they made it a global name and brand. Absolutely favorite Indiana team. Watching the Pacers last year was so fun and heartbreaking at the same time at the end. But I pro I probably have the most memories of being a Pacers fan as a kid, and then against the New York Knicks. So I'd go Pacers. Yeah, I would go Pacers as well.

The old Market Square Arena in those days. Last year was so fun. Yeah. Uh, heartbreaking at the end, but so, but I would live it again. Oh, for sure. I I would go back and like that, those six weeks, the city of Indianapolis was just popping. Yeah. Feel like we couldn't miss like Indy 500's going on.

Everyone's buzzing like, let's go. Yeah. CCHA does a lot in the community. Talk to me about your favorite community initiative that you guys have across the state of Indiana. I love that. You know, you mentioned earlier the Peony Festival in, uh, Noblesville. I think that that's, you know, grown from a Noblesville thing to really a Hamilton County Central Indiana and you brings in 10 to 15,000 and we, we love being a major sponsor of that.

It's huge. Yeah. It's like 15,000 plus people. And I didn't realize it was only like seven years old, maybe. Mm-hmm. Like, I just thought, oh, this is the legacy, like the a hundred year old Noblesville PE festival and it's like, no, it's, it's like less than a decade. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Um, I'm on the board of the Noblesville Boys & Girls Club and we are entering our 75th year next year.

And I grew up, I went to the club as a kid when it was in, its a very historic building in, in downtown Noblesville, and now it's in a, a, a brand new, um, building. But I think that's, that's been my passion the last 10 years or so. And we'll, we'll be doing a lot this year or this coming year. Heck yeah.

That's so fun. That's cr I think that was also what Brian talked about. Yeah. He loves the, Brian was on the board. He loves the boys and girls. Yeah. And he was like, as a, I went to the club, like blah, blah, all the stuff, and I was like, this is more than I've heard about the Boys & Girls Club in the last week than I have in the last five years.

Well, Brian was involved when I was like, I had know Brian's kids, grew up with his kids, so Yeah, he was, he was still on the board when I joined and then he rolled off. You, I should have known, you know, willville people. Hey, uh, keep it tight. Okay. This one's a, uh, could, could potentially be expanded outside of Indiana.

You talked about your favorite part, being able, you could be on college campuses. What's your favorite college campus to be on? I was on, uh, campus yesterday, not, uh, not for any investigation or anything, but on, um, at IU Indy. And I just love the urban and the, the, I was at the law school and I, I just love, like, the urban environment and, and how much they're trying to, uh, integrate into, into the city.

I live in Indianapolis and just really have come to appreciate Indianapolis as a city as, and being outside of the donut counties, you know, moving in from the suburbs. So, um, I don't know that I, in this moment I'll say that's my favorite, but there's a lot of other. There's a, there's a lot of beautiful college campuses out there besides Greencastle.

Uh, shout out. Come on now Tigers, it, it, it's always fun to, you know, when, when IU is relevant in, in a sport and going down to Bloomington and being a part of that. So, uh, you know, my four years in at DePaul, we went to IU a lot. You know, it's IU basketball was in, in their heyday and Yeah. And winning, you know, national championships.

So, you know, Bloomington's great as well. Yeah, I totally agree. Uh, there's just like you, when you talk about like the, the energy and being a part of a college campus, it was this past fall, it was like a Friday morning and I was in South Bend and I was on my run through Notre Dame. You know, just like the, the world's just waking up and I'm just like mm-hmm.

You know, and everyone's just chipper. This was back when, before they missed the college football playoffs. Yeah. So like, they were still young and spry and full of hope and like Friday in the fall on a college campus. I don't know if it gets much better. Yeah. Holy cow. Um, all right. These are the same three questions that we ask every guest who comes on the show.

Uh, this first one, obviously you're representing universities all across the nation, right? You guys are working with clients, not just in Indiana. If you could shout it from the rooftops, what's something the world needs to know about Indiana? We have a first class higher education system. When you look at iu, Purdue, Notre Dame Butler, you know, from the large schools, but then you, you, you, you know your smaller schools, DePauw Wabash that we mentioned.

People from all over the country and world come to do their higher education in Indiana. And, um, I don't think people appreciate that enough that live here has been and can be, and hopefully will be again, a really vibrant downtown. And the, the sports scene is a huge part of that. And people that have traveled here for sporting events, I don't realize what a great place Indianapolis is until they've come and experienced it.

So there's just so much that we have to offer as a, as a downtown. City that hopefully, you know, I think things are coming back since the pandemic and, and we're, we're on the up and up, but hopefully that continues. Alright. Kelleigh, we're gonna start with you. This is your chance to shed the light on a part of the state, a place, a park, a thing could be whatever that, uh, more people need to be talking about.

What is a hidden gem in Indiana? Yeah, so I didn't know of this place until I, um, started dating my now husband, but his family went most summers to Lake Lemon. Which is close to Lake Monroe, but not the lake. You know, it, it's kind of the, the younger, the step, the stepchild or the younger brother or sister of.

Um, of Lake Monroe and, but it's, it's a really beautiful place. I've been privileged to get, to spend a lot of time there now with my in-laws. And, um, I think it, yeah, I think more it, it's, it's a, if you don't wanna be on a huge, crazy busy lake, it's a, a great alternative. Yeah. Lake Lemon, I like that one.

That's good. I, I'd say our state park system, you know, I love being outdoors. I love just hiking. I love biking. You know, the state park system that we have in Indiana is, is awesome. Turkey Run shades, Indiana Dunes, I mean, you know, there's so many different places you can go. They're affordable, they're clean, they're safe, you know, great places to take your family.

So our state park system is first class. I mean, it's winter, the toboggan run. Pokagon State Park. Yeah. That has to be one of the most unique things at any state park anywhere. Like, watch the videos out there. Listen, there's, it's crazy. You're going like fast down that thing. Yeah. All right. So our final question, this is where we source new guests or learn about other people across the state of Indiana, or ties to Indiana that are doing inspiring things.

David, we'll start with you. Who's a Hoosier? We need to keep on our radar. Someone who's doing big things. Yeah. Kelleigh mentioned earlier her mentor, Julie Roe Lach. She's stealing mine. Well, but you know, I think that, you know, she is somebody who, if you're in that sports community, you know Yeah. But if you're outside the sports community, she's, she's shaped.

Collegiate sports. Um, you know, now she's going to work as the executive vice president of the Pacers Sports & Entertainment. I would encourage people to go back and listen to that episode. Uh, she came on and I was like, okay, we'll talk Horizon League. She's, every time I see her, it's, I learn something new. It's impressive.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's like, so fun. Exciting. Julie Rocks. Uh, yeah. We'll have to, I'll have to get her back on then maybe in a year, and we'll talk all things Pacers. That'll be fun once she gets things rocking and rolling there. Yeah. Julie's such been a huge, so, been so instrumental in my life that I, I, she's just, every room she's in, she, without, without even trying, she commands, you know, the attention and she's such an incredible leader and, and a has taught me how to be a mom, a working mom, and, um, still have a career and still have ambition and pursue that.

So. She, I, it sounds like you're already watching her, but like you said, bring her back in here. Oh, yeah. I mean, when I knew I was, I was buying whatever she was selling. Yeah. She comes in and I talk about her favorite sports memory, and she talks about, she was at Millikin. Mm-hmm. And it was like in the conference championship, and she was a senior, but she had gotten injured.

And they look at like, they need to win a hit a game winner, and they're like drawing up a play to someone else, and she like, looks at the coach and says, no, I'll take the shot. And like, then they, and she hits it and like, goes crazy and they win the conference championship. And like from that, I was just hanging on every single word, every single syllable.

As soon as it came I was like, oh my gosh, whatever you're selling, I'm buying. Yep. Like, she rocks. Yep. This has been fun. I, I learned a lot when it came to all things NIL, just like the complexities of college sports in general. I think that, uh, I think that we're far from the end of that. I think there's a lot more things that are gonna come out when it comes to NIL in college, but.

You did a really great job of making that, uh, easy for me to understand and, you know, and, and understand the work that's going in behind the scenes and universities protecting themselves and athletes protecting themselves, and all that crazy work that you guys have been working on for 11 years, which is awesome.

And learning about how 145-year-old firm navigates and takes care of its people and think about AI like we covered so much ground today. Uh, I feel like we could do a whole nother episode just about public education and like that whole mm-hmm. Topic, like we might need to do a part two about that.

'cause this was all basically all about college sports. But I'm, I'm fascinated by Yeah. The side and the work that you guys are doing for high schools. 'cause I think that education is just an, an interesting place right now as, um, becomes more accessible with AI and with the internet and things like that.

And yeah, the work that, that y'all are doing is, is super impactful. So it was a pleasure to hang out with y'all. Thank you. If people wanna learn more about CCHA, if they wanna learn more about each of you, how can they do that? You know, our, our website's probably the best. cchalaw.com, you know, has all of our information, all of our bios and things that we do.

So yeah, I love it. Go visit that an attorney riding in a Noblesville on horseback and starting this 145 years ago to what you guys have built today and spread all across the state of Indiana. It is inspiring. It's incredible. Keep up the good work, keep innovating, keep taking, even though it doesn't feel like risks, keep taking risks and chances and, oh my gosh, you guys are crushing it, and it was a pleasure to talk with you today.

Thank you for having us. This show is made possible by our friends up at Sweetwater. Whether you're looking to start a podcast or take your content to the next level, click the link in the description to see all my gear recommendations at Sweetwater. If you want a behind the scenes look at everything we're doing across the state.

Make sure you follow me on Instagram and TikTok at Nate Spangle. Thank you so much for listening and being a part of what makes the Hoosier State. Great. We'll see you next time here on Get IN.